Tactics Under Maresca

[Lillehamring]

19 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I can see what Maresca is trying to do and I can definitely respect the benefits it should produce but we just don’t have the players to pull it off. Having N’didi as an advanced midfielder or Daka and Vestergaard in the team is going to cost us points consistently.

We need some quality coming in, We need 2-3 wide men. A very decent 8 and a striker.

Probably another centre back too.

 

I can’t see us getting anywhere without that.

I agree that we need some more players, but i disagree that those players are necessarily going to be a liability - certainly not on a consistent week in/week out basis.

Ndidi has only played 2/3 games in the position and has shown that while his finishing is gash, he is getting into the right places - instinctively! - he even set up what should have been a goal for daka.  And one of those games was against a very good Liverpool back line - so maybe wait and see what he's capable of if he isn't replaced.

Vestergaard has looked so much better playing maresca football, he's good on the ball and not likely to come up against strikers like nunez or salah again any time soon.

Daka probably just needs to get a few goals again, there are some pretty shabby defences he will come up against, so it's entirely possible he could get back to that first exciting player we saw.

Not saying these players are ideal, but there's nothing to suggest they'll cost us points.

[StriderHiryu]

15 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

I'm inclined to think that Winks was under instruction not to take too many risks, there's no point him throwing himself about in this kind of fixture.

Perhaps, but Harry Winks is not the first and won't be the last midfielder to lose possession via the Liverpool high press! They are kind of good at it!

[FLAN]

2 hours ago, Paninistickers said:

How about defending?

Obviously better at that. I’d have Jimmy Krankie above him for aerial duels too 

[Grebfromgrebland]

I don't think it will take a genius to mark the only 2 footballers in the side in Ricardo and Winks and make us change to plan B. We really need a couple more players who are good on the ball.

[Strokes]

13 minutes ago, Lillehamring said:

I agree that we need some more players, but i disagree that those players are necessarily going to be a liability - certainly not on a consistent week in/week out basis.

Ndidi has only played 2/3 games in the position and has shown that while his finishing is gash, he is getting into the right places - instinctively! - he even set up what should have been a goal for daka.  And one of those games was against a very good Liverpool back line - so maybe wait and see what he's capable of if he isn't replaced.

Vestergaard has looked so much better playing maresca football, he's good on the ball and not likely to come up against strikers like nunez or salah again any time soon.

Daka probably just needs to get a few goals again, there are some pretty shabby defences he will come up against, so it's entirely possible he could get back to that first exciting player we saw.

Not saying these players are ideal, but there's nothing to suggest they'll cost us points.

I don’t think Daka’s link up play is good enough for what is almost a false 9. Vestergaard will get exposed time and time again by any front line with pace. And N’didi does not have the vision or finishing ability to make the most of what the formation is giving him.

 

These are guys at the peak or over their peak, I don’t foresee much progression. 
I hope I’m wrong, I’d like to see them fit in but I really don’t have any faith.

[Lillehamring]

24 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

Perhaps, but Harry Winks is not the first and won't be the last midfielder to lose possession via the Liverpool high press! They are kind of good at it!

Sure.  I thought he was absent generally from large portions of the game today, though when we had a bit more time and space at the end, he was on point - that ball over the top was delicious - i just think his MO for today was 'don't get injured'.

[Lillehamring]

22 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

I don't think it will take a genius to mark the only 2 footballers in the side in Ricardo and Winks and make us change to plan B. We really need a couple more players who are good on the ball.

The thing is - no  teams in the EFL can do what liverpool did today without leaving themselves horribly exposed, and less capable of covering than liverpool, so they either won't risk it, or they'll soon realise that it's not the best plan. this is the beauty of the system.

[Lillehamring]

19 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I don’t think Daka’s link up play is good enough for what is almost a false 9. Vestergaard will get exposed time and time again by any front line with pace. And N’didi does not have the vision or finishing ability to make the most of what the formation is giving him.

 

These are guys at the peak or over their peak, I don’t foresee much progression. 
I hope I’m wrong, I’d like to see them fit in but I really don’t have any faith.

It's hard to know what Maresca wants from his strikers - the only real attacking we've seen seems to be hitting the channels and cutting back into the box - like the chance daka had from ndidi's cut back - whcih he should have buried; and today and i think against northampton he appeared to beat the offside trap only to get called off, but with the whole park to run into, and we know that's where he excels - he still has time.

Yeah, we know vestergaard has that problem, but so it seems do coady and souttar - but i think if we we're only concerned about pacey strikers, then we shouldn't have too much to worry about - liverpool have tonnes of pace, but that's not where we got beat today - who knows - he's not ideal, but i think he's good enough at this level and seems to be #2 in Maresca's plans.

Ndidi - maybe - we just don't know, so far he's shown he can get into the right places, maybe against poorer defences, he won't need to be as good?

 

But again, yes, hopefully we can get Coady, Vardy and a #8 in and this is all moot.

[Daggers]

4 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

How to tell everyone you're a dinosaur without telling them you're a dinosaur.

 

How do you get better at playing out from the back? By actually doing it! Who cares if the score today was 4-0, 40-0 or 400-0? It was worth the same amount of points - zero. The manager has said multiple times, it's about how the team understands the idea rather than the result at this point in time.

 

Who are the current best club team in the world? Manchester City, for whom Enzo Maresca helped guide to a treble. Who play exactly the same way. Yeah they have better players, but even for them it took time. Do you remember us beating them 4-2 at a rain soaked King Power early in Guardiola's reign where we counter-attacked them to death and Vardy scored a hat-trick? It takes time and practice to get a system like to work, but the results are there when it does.

 

Let's look at the Premier League last season:

1. Man City. Play out from the back.

2. Arsenal. Play out from the back.

3. Manchester United. Played out from the back, but badly, which is why they brought a new goalkeeper for 50M.

4. Newcastle United. Play out from the back.

5. Liverpool. Play out from the back.

6. Brighton. The best team at playing out from the back in Europe.

7. Aston Villa. Play out from the back.

8. Spurs. Didn't play out from the back, but just hired a manager that does.

 

This is modern football. The days of playing a direct 442 and winning the physical battle are over. The days of trying to have 70% possession and suffocate the opposition to death like the Spanish world cup winning team are over. The days of playing a deep block and hitting teams on the counter can work for individual games, but the days of it winning a title are also over. The modern game is about being comfortable on the ball, counter-pressing and lightning fast transitions. In fact if you think about it, it's a combination of all of the other styles merged into one.

 

I am so glad we hired a manager like this. It could completely go tits up and backfire and we end up midtable as it all goes wrong. But it could also lead to creating a state of the art, modern team, that can compete with the very best like Brighton proved this season. The gamble is we take one step back to go two forwards, and playing this way with this manager gives us a chance of doing that.
 

 

I want to believe that this is the way forward...but then I think about how everyone lauded Rodgers for his tactical genius - including managers from the teams you mention. And yet he failed, not least for trying to force square pegs into round holes. And so it brings me back to thinking that solutions are best created by adapting plans to the resources rather than the other way around.

 

[Blue-fox]

I mean I’m going to give him a chance to bring his own philosophy into the club, or peps, but for me the championship has always been about battling, strong challenges, being good in the air and at set pieces, willing to run etc… Or maybe I’m stuck I’m stuck in the 90s. 
 

 

[Bluearmyfox28]

5 hours ago, davieG said:

I'm no tactician but it seem to me that we had a free run of the game until Klopp decided to focus his front 3 players on closing down Winks and Ricardo when we had the ball leaving our back 3 under little  or no pressure with the option of going long or trying to get to Winks & Ricardo which they  failed to do so many times thus giving the ball away.

 

That and our inability to take our chances.

 

Let's hope the Championship teams don't realize that if they close our mid 2 down they'll force numerous errors out of us.

The fact that one of the best pressing teams in the world had to pull their attackers deeper to stop us from being dangerous should show people that this style can be dangerous and puts fear into the opposition. Be patient everyone. 

[Ric Flair]

Mavididi may well play as a striker, will be interesting to see what our XI is once the transfer window has shut.

 

I think we believe we'll get Casadei and Palmer, which would be unreal if we did.

[Bluearmyfox28]

Just now, Ric Flair said:

Mavididi may well play as a striker, will be interesting to see what our XI is once the transfer window has shut.

 

I think we believe we'll get Casadei and Palmer, which would be unreal if we did.

I hope not, with the lack of options out wide currently he will be wasted down the middle. 
 

I hope next Saturday with start with Mavididi on the left and McAteer on the right.

[Ric Flair]

Just now, Bluearmyfox28 said:

I hope not, with the lack of options out wide currently he will be wasted down the middle. 
 

I hope next Saturday with start with Mavididi on the left and McAteer on the right.

I don't mean straight the way, he has to play wide left on Sunday I agree. But depending on our transfer in's and outs by the end of August, maybe he'll be used through the middle. At Montpellier he played a mix of LW or CF.

 

Wanya Marca has always played RW for the U21s and McAteer more down the left when Maswanhise played up front.

[Lillehamring]

5 minutes ago, Bluearmyfox28 said:

I hope not, with the lack of options out wide currently he will be wasted down the middle. 
 

I hope next Saturday with start with Mavididi on the left and McAteer on the right.

I like mcateer on the right, assuming we get no one else - if they think mavididi can do better than daka or nacho, a front three of marcal/mavididi/mcateer wouldn't be the worst - yes, it might take a bit longer for them to get up to speed, but it's young, fast, keen, exciting - if kdh and barnes can come to life at this level, why not these guys....

[CosbehFox]

Can’t believe we are at the point where we discussing it a lad who got one goal involvement in 16 games for AFC Wimbledon is a proposition for us starting the first game of the season. 
 

The lad could progress but it’s a fall off and half by us. 

[weller54]

50 minutes ago, Blue-fox said:

I mean I’m going to give him a chance to bring his own philosophy into the club, or peps, but for me the championship has always been about battling, strong challenges, being good in the air and at set pieces, willing to run etc… Or maybe I’m stuck I’m stuck in the 90s. 
 

 

You mean like Luton were last season?.. 

Blood and guts got them up... Not fanny ing around at the back playing 50 passes and getting absolutely nowhere!! 

Anyone who watched that Liverpool game today and thinks playing like that will see us walk the championship is in for a rude awakening!! 

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, Lillehamring said:

It's hard to know what Maresca wants from his strikers - the only real attacking we've seen seems to be hitting the channels and cutting back into the box - like the chance daka had from ndidi's cut back - whcih he should have buried; and today and i think against northampton he appeared to beat the offside trap only to get called off, but with the whole park to run into, and we know that's where he excels - he still has time.

Yeah, we know vestergaard has that problem, but so it seems do coady and souttar - but i think if we we're only concerned about pacey strikers, then we shouldn't have too much to worry about - liverpool have tonnes of pace, but that's not where we got beat today - who knows - he's not ideal, but i think he's good enough at this level and seems to be #2 in Maresca's plans.

Ndidi - maybe - we just don't know, so far he's shown he can get into the right places, maybe against poorer defences, he won't need to be as good?

 

But again, yes, hopefully we can get Coady, Vardy and a #8 in and this is all moot.

Both Coady and Souttar are a bit quicker and turn better. I’d argue Coady reads the game better too, so is less at risk.

I don’t think that’s enough to make it moot be here’s hoping 🤞 

[Lillehamring]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Both Coady and Souttar are a bit quicker and turn better. I’d argue Coady reads the game better too, so is less at risk.

I don’t think that’s enough to make it moot be here’s hoping 🤞 

Coady is obviously our first choice, and i think will be great, but vestergaard as a back up is not the worst thing at this level.

 

I meant this discussion will be moot if daka, ndidi or vestergaard aren't needed  

[Dan LCFC]

5 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

 

 

 

Burnley:

- Relegated to the Championship for the 22/23 season.

- Needed a rebuild.
- Lost many of their key players like Tarkowski, McNeil and Weghorst.

 

Does this sound at all familiar?

 

Burnley finished 10 points ahead of second placed Sheffield United and 21 points ahead of third place Luton Town. They got 101 points, one of the highest tallies in many years at this level.

 

So seems like a pretty good plan to put in place for the Championship...?

Burnley went into their opening game with 9 new signings made - to our 4 (I'll say 5 as Mavididi surely is in by then) I actually think with the correct recruitment and the budget should in theory have we could go even better than them - but that required swift action this summer and unless there's a bit of a miracle, that isn't going to be happening.

 

We have the tools yet not enough people at the club who can operate them. Exactly as I feared.

 

I also think the league looks tougher this year than last. On the flip side, annoyingly, I think the bottom 6-8 of the Premier League looks appalling, the worst in absolutely years and we'd have probably survived even if we'd chosen this year to coast rather than last. Dross like Everton and Forest will end up surviving even more comfortably.

[sacreblueits442]

7 hours ago, Lillehamring said:

I'm inclined to think the mistakes were more a result of a combination of nerves, fear of injury, not having quite the team out we would have liked and, by the end, fatigue (remember klopp brought on fresh legs, we stayed with the same squad for most of the game) - most of the championship games are more likely to be like the northampton game, where we were very good in possession.

...Klopp did make substitutions but that was in the second half when we we were already 3 - 0 down!!!

  We actually did better (according to the scoreline) in the second half, with these supposedly exhausted players.

  We are so drilled into the need to pass our way around the pitch that common sense goes out the window. KDH attempted to keep us from falling completely apart,  by holding on to the ball and not making a pass because he feels that is what Maresca needs him to do. It was last season again, the weakness of the individual players came back to the fore and we can see no one seems to want to take on any responsibility when in possession, except for KDH.

  Ricardo has constantly received plaudits for the role that he is playing but I do not see the benefit he brings going into the middle. He may help a midfielder to go higher up the pitch when he drops in beside Winks,  but we need someone who is more ready to receive the ball off the backline,  on the half turn, as opposed to constantly playing, facing his own goal. 

[funkyrobot]

The ongoing selection of Vestergaard over Souttar and the continued unwarranted trust in Castagne and Ndidi (tho I appreciate he has less alternatives to Wilf) are worrying aspects of Maresca’s pre season. Has he explained the omission of Faes, VK and Praet from yesterday’s squad too? 

[Thebluefox85]

I was buzzing for the season to start after yesterday Im dreading it now big reminder of the players that are still at this club that just won’t **** off that need to go! And if we play like we did yesterday we will be lucky to be in the top half! This pre season trip will come back to haunt us I just hope we can clear 2-3 out this week and at least bring 2 in 

[Gazza M]

I think we need to be prepared for a slow burner. Must be difficult trying to plan when not knowing 100% who is staying. At the min I would say nearly every player is for sale at the right price. 

 

I don't think you will see the best of us until October to be honest and the squad has settled. 

 

 

[Paninistickers]

5 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

Burnley went into their opening game with 9 new signings made - to our 4 (I'll say 5 as Mavididi surely is in by then

Burnley also had an inbuilt culture of hard work with the players that remained. 

 

We haven't got that in our existing DNA. I was desparately hoping for some upgrade of conditioning