Tactics Under Maresca

[Drink Water]

1 hour ago, Tom12345 said:

Just like how Rodgers started

Enzo has said we are only 10% of the way there and has said after the Rotherham game we still need to be better and it will take time. Would Rodgers say something like that? Or would he laud himself. 

[leicesterlad1989]

1 hour ago, Tom12345 said:

Just like how Rodgers started and how fans reacted, as I recall.

 

We stop playing for sure when we are not playing our game. When you run to the corner flag and then lose possession anyway instead of trying to take a shot, that is not playing our game. Game manage against Rotherham is not exactly confidence building. I don’t see Man City game manage normally - they continue to attack.

 

But it is a process, and I hope this is just a phase. After years of Rodgers, I just don’t want us to go back to that.

Under Rodgers, particularly in the last 18 months, we'd shit the bed when we were one up. What we saw yesterday was complete control. I must admit I wasn't a fan of us going to the corner flag with 6 minutes still to go but that's on the individual player, I'm sure. 

 

It's very much a cliché but we are a work in progress. We need to be creating more and scoring more, so that we aren't having to "manage" the game in the manner we have done in recent weeks. Early signs are promising. The 3 points matter the most ultimately. I don't care how we get them either. 

[Col city fan]

Maresca is nothing like Rodgers. 
He’s far more schooled and progressive. He also has a point to prove. He’s starting out on his management career, Rodgers has been around too long imo and has already made an absolute fortune.

I’m so glad we offloaded Rodgers in the end (although it should have happened ages before). I grew to quite detest the smily little twat.

Enzo seems to want the club to progress. Rodgers didn’t give a shite in that last season. I remain convinced he actually wanted the sack. 

[Lionator]

Please don’t compare Enzo to Rodgers. Enzo has already shown that he’s not stubborn and also seems to trust youth unlike Rodgers. 

[Plastik Man]

16 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Maresca is nothing like Rodgers. 
He’s far more schooled and progressive. He also has a point to prove. He’s starting out on his management career, Rodgers has been around too long imo and has already made an absolute fortune.

I’m so glad we offloaded Rodgers in the end (although it should have happened ages before). I grew to quite detest the smily little twat.

Enzo seems to want the club to progress. Rodgers didn’t give a shite in that last season. I remain convinced he actually wanted the sack. 

I had a thought over the weekend, casting my mind back to pre-season 2022.

 

Does anyone know what Rodger's version of the inverted fullback, which was to use Ricardo in that role, actually looked like? Did it get that far advanced before his injury?

 

Would it have been similar to Enzo's version? Rodgers wanted to sign Lookman to play on the right. Would Ricardo have played alongside Tielemans or Soumare, with Maddison and Praet further advanced? Did we even have 3 CBs available at the beginning of last season to play at the back?

 

It would be interesting to know, even though we know the rot was well and truly set in by then anyhow.

 

@StriderHiryu may have some expert tactical opinion on this?

[FoxFossil]

Going to be absolutely brilliant, with no idea who's playing  in positions we've never heard of and names we deffo can"t spell.

[moore_94]

 

[joachim1965]

31 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Maresca is nothing like Rodgers. 
He’s far more schooled and progressive. He also has a point to prove. He’s starting out on his management career, Rodgers has been around too long imo and has already made an absolute fortune.

I’m so glad we offloaded Rodgers in the end (although it should have happened ages before). I grew to quite detest the smily little twat.

Enzo seems to want the club to progress. Rodgers didn’t give a shite in that last season. I remain convinced he actually wanted the sack. 

Not only did he want the sack, but he actively sought it, leaving decent players out, playing the poorest goalkeeper in Premier league history, making substitutions that made no sense and openly criticising the owners and fans . 

He should have been binned long before he was and I genuinely believe if the trigger was pulled earlier we would still be a Premier league club.

[ARM1968]

It’s a weird thing because under Enzo it actually feels like we do have tactics. Sure there is a semblance of RodgersBall, but it is only passing. We seem to keep the ball far better and move forward with far greater purpose. 

[StriderHiryu]

14 minutes ago, Plastik Man said:

I had a thought over the weekend, casting my mind back to pre-season 2022.

 

Does anyone know what Rodger's version of the inverted fullback, which was to use Ricardo in that role, actually looked like? Did it get that far advanced before his injury?

 

Would it have been similar to Enzo's version? Rodgers wanted to sign Lookman to play on the right. Would Ricardo have played alongside Tielemans or Soumare, with Maddison and Praet further advanced? Did we even have 3 CBs available at the beginning of last season to play at the back?

 

It would be interesting to know, even though we know the rot was well and truly set in by then anyhow.

 

@StriderHiryu may have some expert tactical opinion on this?

My opinion is that Brendan tried to copy what Arteta / Pep were doing, but did it badly. 
 

The biggest stylistic difference was that Rodgers kept the ball for the sake of keeping the ball. We did the “slow” part of slow, slow, quick, quick, slow, but without the quick part. Towards the end the press also had a lot of gaps in it leaving to us being way too open on the transition. Under Maresca we keep the ball until we see one of the opposition players “jumping” / start one of their pressing triggers and then we play the ball vertically through the pitch really quickly. But didn’t do that under Rodgers. 
 

A few people on here like @Matt say that Brendan is stuck in 2010 and too obsessed with trying to suffocate the game through relentless possession and I’d probably agree. The irony is that in his first half of his tenure we were more like Liverpool / Dortmund with just one pivot and two attacking 8’s, but then he went to a more secure style and never went back. At Celtic in his second spell it looks like he’s doing the same thing. Making them less cavalier and more controlled but not making anywhere near as many chances. 
 

There’s a lot more I could say, but this thread is about MARESCA’s tactics so let’s stick to that. Last season was a disaster, let’s move on!

[CosbehFox]

Funny you mention Artera, getting a lot of stick for playing Partey at RB currently. Talksport and all saps saying it’s to accommodate Havertz. It’s clear it’s to use him inverted 

[Drink Water]

33 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

MARESCA’s tactics 

I'd like to know your opinion on if we're going to start seeing more of the possesional play happening around the final third as opposed to being constantly pressed around our defensive line. Is this something that will simply come with time? Especially around the opponent's penalty box area, I notice Pep likes to dominate and recycle around that area until a clear goal scoring opportunity arises.

[FoxesWalk]

1 hour ago, moore_94 said:

 

I’m already sold on Enzo but when you see some of the play we’ve already put together despite some loose touches and individual errors you just have to be impressed… Excited to see what we look like in 6 months time. My expectations are high. 

[StriderHiryu]

1 hour ago, CosbehFox said:

Funny you mention Artera, getting a lot of stick for playing Partey at RB currently. Talksport and all saps saying it’s to accommodate Havertz. It’s clear it’s to use him inverted 

 

Now THIS is a good conversation to have! In their first game against Forest, Arsenal were playing with almost two inverted players. Rice was going between CB and CDM like Stones did against Bayern Munich, and then you had Timber (who got injured) doing what Ricardo did for us. It looks like he's trying to one-up his own tactic and have a series of flexible players on the pitch, so they can build with even more attacking players, but retain the defensive side too. I live 5 minutes from the Arsenal ground, so the use of Thomas Partey is talk of the town round these parts. I feel like the Arsenal fans are reminding me why they are so annoying, they've got 7/9 points and complaining about a game where no player played well. It is interesting that Arteta decided to use a new system given how good the old one worked, because I feel like they lost the title through a lack of experience (young squad) and injuries. Pep himself was guilty of overthinking things at times and doing stupid things, no CDM against Chelsea in the Covid Champions League final being the best example of that, so maybe it's an Arteta thing too. Worryingly, I could see Kompany and Maresca doing the same thing, because sometimes I feel like managers want to show how clever they are, rather than prepare the players for the mental battle.

 

I think it's really well worth keeping an eye on both Man City and Arsenal this season to see how their tactics develop. Pep has already made some tweaks, and given that they had a bit of unexpected squad turnover they've had to adapt a bit. Basically they are playing an out-and-out double pivot now because Kovacic joined, but so far he looks very good for them. Arsenal with Havertz... I feel like that could go badly wrong. It's funny how the same complaints you see from Chelsea fans are being labelled at him already. So with him, I get the impression that it's not about the position he played, but his own mental attributes that hold him back. 65M for him was an eye-opening sum to pay for someone that was so poor. They could have got Maddison and pocketed 25M spare, and I know who I would have signed!

 

1 hour ago, Drink Water said:

I'd like to know your opinion on if we're going to start seeing more of the possesional play happening around the final third as opposed to being constantly pressed around our defensive line. Is this something that will simply come with time? Especially around the opponent's penalty box area, I notice Pep likes to dominate and recycle around that area until a clear goal scoring opportunity arises.

100% that will happen. But as @Aleksz has mentioned a few times in this thread, we seem to play more with Roberto De Zerbi's style than Pep's right now. Brighton try to provoke the opposition to press and as soon as they activate their pressing triggers, they play around them and exploit the space. Notice how two of the more shocking results for them (Everton, West Ham) have been against teams that didn't press against them? Not a coincidence!

 

To answer your question, we have seen bits of that play already. Some teams back off Vestergaard so much he makes it as far as their box. This happened a few times against Cardiff, for example. At that point, we will play the way you have described. What has surprised me is that tactically, the teams in this division are nowhere near as basic as I thought they might be. No team has played a 442 deep block against us yet, though a few teams have sat back. So it might be that we don't have to play that way too much to get up. Against Man City, everyone is so scared of them (rightly so) that they do sit back. Especially as the two teams that tend to do well against them in Palace and Spurs have had results playing a deep block and countering.

 

 

Edited 28 August 2023 by StriderHiryu

[Aleksz]

56 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

100% that will happen. But as @Aleksz has mentioned a few times in this thread, we seem to play more with Roberto De Zerbi's style than Pep's right now. Brighton try to provoke the opposition to press and as soon as they activate their pressing triggers, they play around them and exploit the space. Notice how two of the more shocking results for them (Everton, West Ham) have been against teams that didn't press against them? Not a coincidence!

 

To answer your question, we have seen bits of that play already. Some teams back off Vestergaard so much he makes it as far as their box. This happened a few times against Cardiff, for example. At that point, we will play the way you have described. What has surprised me is that tactically, the teams in this division are nowhere near as basic as I thought they might be. No team has played a 442 deep block against us yet, though a few teams have sat back. So it might be that we don't have to play that way too much to get up. Against Man City, everyone is so scared of them (rightly so) that they do sit back. Especially as the two teams that tend to do well against them in Palace and Spurs have had results playing a deep block and countering.

 

 

De Zerbi is definitely a huge reference point for Maresca. The build up shape is very pep and Man City, but the principles are very De Zerbi.

 

De Zerbi is the current flavour of the month and inspiration for a lot of tactical principles out there at the moment - even Pep is implementing some of RDZ’s ideas. The mainstream pundits aren’t quite clocking onto it just yet.

[studentofthegame]

3 hours ago, moore_94 said:

 

It's the off the ball movement that I love, I think it is the key to what Manchester City do, everybody is always moving

Under Rodgers it was so stagnant, everybody just stood still and watched, this already looks so much better

[Drink Water]

1 hour ago, StriderHiryu said:

 

Brighton try to provoke the opposition to press and as soon as they activate their pressing triggers, they play around them and exploit the space. 

 

Against Man City, everyone is so scared of them (rightly so) that they do sit back. Especially as the two teams that tend to do well against them in Palace and Spurs have had results playing a deep block and countering.

 

 

Yeah, I definitely see more of De Zerbi's style in that manner. Faes inviting oncoming attackers to push towards him etc.

The Man City point makes sense as its reactionary, based on the way their opponent shapes up against them, it only makes sense for them to play around Sheff U's box for example. So it really depends on whether in the next few months we will see championship teams viewing us how prem teams view man city, causing them to use the deep block.

[Plastik Man]

3 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

My opinion is that Brendan tried to copy what Arteta / Pep were doing, but did it badly. 
 

The biggest stylistic difference was that Rodgers kept the ball for the sake of keeping the ball. We did the “slow” part of slow, slow, quick, quick, slow, but without the quick part. Towards the end the press also had a lot of gaps in it leaving to us being way too open on the transition. Under Maresca we keep the ball until we see one of the opposition players “jumping” / start one of their pressing triggers and then we play the ball vertically through the pitch really quickly. But didn’t do that under Rodgers. 
 

A few people on here like @Matt say that Brendan is stuck in 2010 and too obsessed with trying to suffocate the game through relentless possession and I’d probably agree. The irony is that in his first half of his tenure we were more like Liverpool / Dortmund with just one pivot and two attacking 8’s, but then he went to a more secure style and never went back. At Celtic in his second spell it looks like he’s doing the same thing. Making them less cavalier and more controlled but not making anywhere near as many chances. 
 

There’s a lot more I could say, but this thread is about MARESCA’s tactics so let’s stick to that. Last season was a disaster, let’s move on!

I did consider creating a separate thread but didn't think it would be very long anyhow!

 

I think it's interesting to contrast how Maresca is applying the tactics with Rodger's attempt. We know all about Rodger's plan for a "refresh" but to be fair, to play those quicker passing moves, he did need new players, particularly in defence. Just look at the changes Maresca is making, and ironically probably only able to because we got relegated.

 

I agree that Rodgers does seem a little stuck in the past, I guess it happens to all. But his biggest failure was the demotivation of players.

 

Oh, and his recruitment...

[StriderHiryu]

4 minutes ago, Plastik Man said:

I did consider creating a separate thread but didn't think it would be very long anyhow!

 

I think it's interesting to contrast how Maresca is applying the tactics with Rodger's attempt. We know all about Rodger's plan for a "refresh" but to be fair, to play those quicker passing moves, he did need new players, particularly in defence. Just look at the changes Maresca is making, and ironically probably only able to because we got relegated.

 

I agree that Rodgers does seem a little stuck in the past, I guess it happens to all. But his biggest failure was the demotivation of players.

 

Oh, and his recruitment...

If we are talking straight up tactics, that's good here. I just don't want it to descend into a Brendan moan fest. Don't me wrong, it's warranted, but there are about 16 million threads for that already.

 

Brendan gets ripped a new one here, but some of his tactics absolutely worked. Chronologically, he did the following:

 

2019/20: 4141. One CDM (Ndidi), two attacking 8's. A high press system and exciting football. My opinion is that if Covid hadn't happened, we would have made the Champions League that year.

2020/21: 4231. Moved Youri back to be more of a double pivot with Ndidi to give added protection. More control over games but less attacking play.

2021: 352. Injuries to Barnes, Ricardo and countless others forced his hand, and he went to a 352. Nacho came alive to power us to 5th and the Cup final.

2021/22: Mixes between 4231 and 433. Seemed to want more energy and physicality in the team given Ndidi's decline. Tries Soumare then KDH in the 433, with Maddison shunted out wide. I don't think he ever wanted to do that, but thought it was the only way to get all the best players into the system. We are inconsistent throughout the season and the warning signs really show here. The attack is OK, but defensively it starts to become a mess.

2022/23: 433 but with Ricardo inverting. No new signings, Ricardo gets injured, it all starts to go wrong, and we lose game after game.

2023: In January we sign Tete and go back to a 433 with a false 9 in Iheanacho. Initially it works with victories over Villa and Spurs, but then goes south as the new players don't make a mark.

2023: Smith comes in and we try playing a bit more direct. Sometimes even trying things like 424. I don't think Smith covered himself in glory, but did average over a point per game, but the players had clearly given up.

 

There were some other experiments or one-off tactics that worked well (away to Man City, away to Leeds, the Diamond formation vs Villa), but those were the main beats.

 

The biggest change was going from attacking to more of a controlled style. He did that because Ndidi got injured, rushed back and then was never the same again. The stats confirm that from his peak, he hit nowhere near the same numbers again, and when teams figured out to target him, we couldn't play with just one pivot. Interestingly, this has happened to Liverpool, and might be happening right now to Man United too. Since then, I think he battled with how to retain control of games but also maintain the attacking side too. The interesting thing is that Enzo Maresca shows us a solution to that problem. Invert a full back and use them as a double pivot. Get the GK to step up as proxy defender, and bring in a top quality regista type of player that is press resistant. But note that Brendan could never play that way without a ball playing GK, and he was loathe to play Mendy as the sole pivot because of his lack of physicality.

 

Notice with Maresca how even though it's the wingers that are the exciting players that all the fans wanted to see, those are the players that have been left to last. Instead, he prioritised:

- A quarterback captain who was a leader and could play with his feet to carry the ball.

- A press-resistant CDM who could play under pressure and act as the heartbeat of the team.

- A ball-playing GK who was excellent with his feet and distribution.

- A LCB that was comfortable as a LB and as a LCB.

 

And that's because you need those players to be able to play the system in the first place.

 

Last word on Rodgers from me. I think the signing that failed him the most was Bouba Soumare. He was hyped up and looked exciting from the clips we saw online. He was like Tielemans AND Ndidi in one! And indeed he was, he had the technical ability of Ndidi, with the physicality of Tielemans as one forum poster once legendarily put. Imagine if instead that player was Ibrahima Sangare or Joao Palinha? That was a bit unfortunate, though we repeated the same mistake after one season by not recognising that as a problem.

[StriderHiryu]

Hey Enzo, check this out for some cutting-edge tactics!

 

 

[Bourbon Fox]

7 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

Last word on Rodgers from me. I think the signing that failed him the most was Bouba Soumare. 

Massively. All indications were that Soumaré was that player to move the ball vertically.- to gain yards quickly and break lines.

 

He just... didn't for some reason.

[Plastik Man]

6 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

If we are talking straight up tactics, that's good here. I just don't want it to descend into a Brendan moan fest. Don't me wrong, it's warranted, but there are about 16 million threads for that already.

 

Brendan gets ripped a new one here, but some of his tactics absolutely worked. Chronologically, he did the following:

 

2019/20: 4141. One CDM (Ndidi), two attacking 8's. A high press system and exciting football. My opinion is that if Covid hadn't happened, we would have made the Champions League that year.

2020/21: 4231. Moved Youri back to be more of a double pivot with Ndidi to give added protection. More control over games but less attacking play.

2021: 352. Injuries to Barnes, Ricardo and countless others forced his hand, and he went to a 352. Nacho came alive to power us to 5th and the Cup final.

2021/22: Mixes between 4231 and 433. Seemed to want more energy and physicality in the team given Ndidi's decline. Tries Soumare then KDH in the 433, with Maddison shunted out wide. I don't think he ever wanted to do that, but thought it was the only way to get all the best players into the system. We are inconsistent throughout the season and the warning signs really show here. The attack is OK, but defensively it starts to become a mess.

2022/23: 433 but with Ricardo inverting. No new signings, Ricardo gets injured, it all starts to go wrong, and we lose game after game.

2023: In January we sign Tete and go back to a 433 with a false 9 in Iheanacho. Initially it works with victories over Villa and Spurs, but then goes south as the new players don't make a mark.

2023: Smith comes in and we try playing a bit more direct. Sometimes even trying things like 424. I don't think Smith covered himself in glory, but did average over a point per game, but the players had clearly given up.

 

There were some other experiments or one-off tactics that worked well (away to Man City, away to Leeds, the Diamond formation vs Villa), but those were the main beats.

 

The biggest change was going from attacking to more of a controlled style. He did that because Ndidi got injured, rushed back and then was never the same again. The stats confirm that from his peak, he hit nowhere near the same numbers again, and when teams figured out to target him, we couldn't play with just one pivot. Interestingly, this has happened to Liverpool, and might be happening right now to Man United too. Since then, I think he battled with how to retain control of games but also maintain the attacking side too. The interesting thing is that Enzo Maresca shows us a solution to that problem. Invert a full back and use them as a double pivot. Get the GK to step up as proxy defender, and bring in a top quality regista type of player that is press resistant. But note that Brendan could never play that way without a ball playing GK, and he was loathe to play Mendy as the sole pivot because of his lack of physicality.

 

Notice with Maresca how even though it's the wingers that are the exciting players that all the fans wanted to see, those are the players that have been left to last. Instead, he prioritised:

- A quarterback captain who was a leader and could play with his feet to carry the ball.

- A press-resistant CDM who could play under pressure and act as the heartbeat of the team.

- A ball-playing GK who was excellent with his feet and distribution.

- A LCB that was comfortable as a LB and as a LCB.

 

And that's because you need those players to be able to play the system in the first place.

 

Last word on Rodgers from me. I think the signing that failed him the most was Bouba Soumare. He was hyped up and looked exciting from the clips we saw online. He was like Tielemans AND Ndidi in one! And indeed he was, he had the technical ability of Ndidi, with the physicality of Tielemans as one forum poster once legendarily put. Imagine if instead that player was Ibrahima Sangare or Joao Palinha? That was a bit unfortunate, though we repeated the same mistake after one season by not recognising that as a problem.

Agree, that's a great, very efficient yet detailed account of the tactical changes through Rodger's time with us.

 

You make a really good point about changing to a more controlled style due to losing Ndidi's dynamic ball-winning.

 

And how Maresca has affected the structural changes needed to successfully (so far) change to the inverted full-back formation. 

 

Rodgers didn't get the right personnel in for practically every vital position in that formation.

 

With them in place you still need the inverted fullback to provide the second pivot. Once Ricardo got injured Rodgers plans were in complete tatters. Tielemans eventually dropped even deeper to be that pivot but we struggled to move the ball vertically, and as you say eventually the players gave up! 😬

[StriderHiryu]

Moving the topic on a bit, one thing that is notable is that in every game, once we hit injury time, and we are winning, Enzo has decided to see it out.

 

Against Rotherham, he took off KDH and McAteer for Hamza and Justin. He changes the formation to a regular 433, with Hamza sitting as a destroyer and Ricardo moving back to right-back. Less emphasis is placed on trying to provoke the opposition into chasing us down, and we play more on the counter-attack.

 

 

Some say he should look to kill off the game, but I think this move solves a few issues:

- Gives players game time and makes them feel important.

- Freshens up the team

- Gets us practice for the future (and the Premier League!) when we have challenging games that require strong mental concentration.

 

Nothing too fancy going on here, but it is technically a formation change, meaning that it's not like Maresca only has one formation. If we get promoted early, I could see Maresca trying a different formation at the end of the season too, just to get some practice with the system and the players.

 

[coolhandfox]

8 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

Moving the topic on a bit, one thing that is notable is that in every game, once we hit injury time, and we are winning, Enzo has decided to see it out.

 

Against Rotherham, he took off KDH and McAteer for Hamza and Justin. He changes the formation to a regular 433, with Hamza sitting as a destroyer and Ricardo moving back to right-back. Less emphasis is placed on trying to provoke the opposition into chasing us down, and we play more on the counter-attack.

 

 

Some say he should look to kill off the game, but I think this move solves a few issues:

- Gives players game time and makes them feel important.

- Freshens up the team

- Gets us practice for the future (and the Premier League!) when we have challenging games that require strong mental concentration.

 

Nothing too fancy going on here, but it is technically a formation change, meaning that it's not like Maresca only has one formation. If we get promoted early, I could see Maresca trying a different formation at the end of the season too, just to get some practice with the system and the players.

 

Italians normally know how to see out a game.

 

Lazy stereotyping on my part, but Enzo seems to have that pragmatic Italian streak in him.

 

I've been really impressed by his in game subs and tactical tweaks, seems to read the ebb and flow of games well.

Edited 29 August 2023 by coolhandfox

[5waller5]

15 hours ago, moore_94 said:

 

 

You can see why we score late goals - it must be exhausting to play against