The "do they mean us?" thread pt 4

[Stadt]

2 hours ago, bovril said:

I think it's because as the game becomes ever more commercialized and detached from the clubs' communities, and as many of the the towns themselves become somewhat soulless and chain-filled, fans cling even harder to an idealized, nostalgia-tinged version of English football. So a club from a traditionally working class town in the West Midlands for example is a 'proper club' despite dwindling attendances in an out of town bowl sponsored by a betting company, and despite the town itself retaining a lot less original character than 'tinpot' places like Brighton and Fulham. 

It’s inextricably linked to attendance and ground capacity too. If we had a 42k stadium now I think the perception would be a bit different - firmly in ‘big club’ territory rather than the middling high 20s/low 30s bunch.

 

There’s a definitely a sense that northern clubs are just a bit more proper too. 

Edited 14 May 2025 by Stadt

[Nalis]

It's funny how it works. If Man City weren't bought out they'd probably have had a similar last 20 years to someone like Wolves. Fans would be bigging them up as a sleeping giant and a proper club.

 

Now with success it's all about throw away comments like the Emptihad or no history before oil money. Weird.

[MattFox]

12 minutes ago, Stadt said:

It’s inextricably linked to attendance too and ground capacity too. If we had a 42k stadium now I think the perception of a bit different - in ‘big club’ territory rather than the middling high 20s/low 30s bunch.

 

There’s a definitely a sense that northern clubs are just a bit more proper too. 

Sheff Weds are the prime example of this, almost everyone would call them “proper”

 

One League Cup is all they have since the war and no track record of league success bar a brief period in the early 90’s, as well as having absolutely no European pedigree 

 

But they have a good sized fanbase, play in a big old stadium in a Northern city and have “History”

 

 

Edited 14 May 2025 by MattFox

[bovril]

2 hours ago, Stadt said:

It’s inextricably linked to attendance and ground capacity too. If we had a 42k stadium now I think the perception would be a bit different - firmly in ‘big club’ territory rather than the middling high 20s/low 30s bunch.

 

There’s a definitely a sense that northern clubs are just a bit more proper too. 

True, but 'big' is different to 'proper' I think. As you say properness is a lot to do with the perception of the area you come from. Trying to be objective as non-Midlander, Leicester feels less 'proper' than Derby and even Nottingham who are slightly further north and which I associate in my mind (perhaps unfairly) more with industry and mining than Leicester. As nice as Leicestershire is, and as economically important a city as Leicester was. 

[bovril]

I've been thinking about this too much today and I've decided it's mostly down to which teams were top division when you started watching football 

[MattFox]

23 minutes ago, bovril said:

True, but 'big' is different to 'proper' I think. As you say properness is a lot to do with the perception of the area you come from. Trying to be objective as non-Midlander, Leicester feels less 'proper' than Derby and even Nottingham who are slightly further north and which I associate in my mind (perhaps unfairly) more with industry and mining than Leicester. As nice as Leicestershire is, and as economically important a city as Leicester was. 

Kind of agree with Derby

 

But Leicester and Nottingham are very equally matched city’s in terms of architecture, industry and economic standing/history
 

Even the housing  stock is very similar 

 

Way more similar than Leicester and Coventry for example 

[Nalis]

7 minutes ago, bovril said:

I've been thinking about this too much today and I've decided it's mostly down to which teams were top division when you started watching football 

Bit like that theory of the best world cup being the one when you were between 8 and 12 years old.

[OntarioFox]

4 hours ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Brilliant!

 

Slight tweek... The beam of light comes from between his cheeks, blinding the Cov fans, so that the GOAT's goal is the last thing they ever see.

As 45,000 jubilant Leicester fans serenade their GOAT one last time.

"There's light up your ass
There's light up your ass
Jamie Vardy
There's light up your ass"

[davieG]

We’re seen as parochial we’re as northern heavy industrial 

[OntarioFox]

6 hours ago, MattFox said:

Sheff Weds are the prime example of this, almost everyone would call them “proper”

 

One League Cup is all they have since the war and no track record of league success bar a brief period in the early 90’s, as well as having absolutely no European pedigree 

 

But they have a good sized fanbase, play in a big old stadium in a Northern city and have “History”

 

Spent a few years in Sheffield back in Uni days, and even back then Wednesday gave me the vibe of a club on the ropes despite (at the time) playing at a higher level than United, who were rooted in League One. As we well know, football can shift in an instant and ever since the Blades have completely surpassed them in pretty much every metric.

 

Hillsborough is decrepit and they're averaging about 28K, which sounds good on paper but is a hell of a lot of empty seats in a ground that can hold 40k. It's going on 10-15 years since the Owls could even get close to selling out the ground.

https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/sheffield-wednesday/attendances

 

It always really gave me the ick visiting as an away fan and knowing that the Leppings Lane end is largely unchanged since the horrors of the 1989 tragedy - Newcastle fans who went in 2023 will tell you that it's still dangerous. It's a scandal really - the whole side needs tearing down and rebuilding, but instead it just stands as a morbid reminder of the deadly shortcomings of the place. An actual disgrace and hard to take them seriously as a so-called "sleeping giant" when they can't even address it properly - their response to the 2023 incident was just to reduce capacity rather than change anything.

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2023-01-09/disaster-waiting-to-happen-hillsborough-survivors-on-overcrowding-claim

 

It can't be fun to be an Owls fan and to have seen the Blades leave them totally in their shadow in recent years. They're at a tipping point now where despite historically being the "smaller" club United are getting similar attendances, if not higher most weeks. They're also selling out or getting close on a regular basis. Realistically, they're one stand expansion away from being able to call themselves the "bigger" club with a straight face.

https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/sheffield-united/attendances

 

Hillsborough itself does suffer from its location out on the arse end of the city - Bramall Lane is far more central and hoovers up more "casual" fans looking for a club, especially Uni students. It's a tough sell unless you've been brought up an Owl already and the mismanagement under Chansiri means there are a fair way off any real fanbase growth as a club, unless something miraculous happens on the pitch to bring a few fairweathers out.

Barely-related point, but I always thought that Leeds would be in a similar position to the Owls if they weren't a one-club city - Elland Road is in a similarly terrible location relative to the centre, and is arguably even worse given that it doesn't have a reliable public transport link like Hillsborough has with the tram. 

Edited 15 May 2025 by OntarioFox

[LCFCJohn]

5 hours ago, OntarioFox said:

Spent a few years in Sheffield back in Uni days, and even back then Wednesday gave me the vibe of a club on the ropes despite (at the time) playing at a higher level than United, who were rooted in League One. As we well know, football can shift in an instant and ever since the Blades have completely surpassed them in pretty much every metric.

 

Hillsborough is decrepit and they're averaging about 28K, which sounds good on paper but is a hell of a lot of empty seats in a ground that can hold 40k. It's going on 10-15 years since the Owls could even get close to selling out the ground.

https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/sheffield-wednesday/attendances

 

It always really gave me the ick visiting as an away fan and knowing that the Leppings Lane end is largely unchanged since the horrors of the 1989 tragedy - Newcastle fans who went in 2023 will tell you that it's still dangerous. It's a scandal really - the whole side needs tearing down and rebuilding, but instead it just stands as a morbid reminder of the deadly shortcomings of the place. An actual disgrace and hard to take them seriously as a so-called "sleeping giant" when they can't even address it properly - their response to the 2023 incident was just to reduce capacity rather than change anything.

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2023-01-09/disaster-waiting-to-happen-hillsborough-survivors-on-overcrowding-claim

 

It can't be fun to be an Owls fan and to have seen the Blades leave them totally in their shadow in recent years. They're at a tipping point now where despite historically being the "smaller" club United are getting similar attendances, if not higher most weeks. They're also selling out or getting close on a regular basis. Realistically, they're one stand expansion away from being able to call themselves the "bigger" club with a straight face.

https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/sheffield-united/attendances

 

Hillsborough itself does suffer from its location out on the arse end of the city - Bramall Lane is far more central and hoovers up more "casual" fans looking for a club, especially Uni students. It's a tough sell unless you've been brought up an Owl already and the mismanagement under Chansiri means there are a fair way off any real fanbase growth as a club, unless something miraculous happens on the pitch to bring a few fairweathers out.

Barely-related point, but I always thought that Leeds would be in a similar position to the Owls if they weren't a one-club city - Elland Road is in a similarly terrible location relative to the centre, and is arguably even worse given that it doesn't have a reliable public transport link like Hillsborough has with the tram. 

Being Sheffield based I agree with your assessment here. Really the city as a whole should be going better. Apart from the Wednesday League Cup win 35 years ago, you have to go back to 1930 for either of them to have won anything (the major trophies I should add). Both were quite prolific before that.

 

I think both have suffered from poor ownership. What is refreshing is that comparatively to other places, you only really see Utd and Wednesday shirts around the city, even with the younger generations. Not much glory supporting going on which is good.

 

Leeds just seem to have a large fan base for an average club though. Probably due to them being quite good in the 1990’s but if they continue on the yo-yo trajectory, they won’t pick up younger fans from further afield like they would have previously. They’ve only won the same number of major trophies as us for example although weighted more in favour of League titles whereas ours are cups.

[MattFox]

12 hours ago, Nalis said:

Bit like that theory of the best world cup being the one when you were between 8 and 12 years old.

Exactly this

 

Saw something going around a while back where people were nostalgic for the likes of Wigan and Bolton in the PL

 

Give it 15 years and you’ll see the same about Bournemouth and Brentford 

[bovril]

12 hours ago, Nalis said:

Bit like that theory of the best world cup being the one when you were between 8 and 12 years old.

France 98, what a tournament 

[Finnegan]

12 hours ago, Nalis said:

Bit like that theory of the best world cup being the one when you were between 8 and 12 years old.

 

No the best world cup is the one you wait 70 years for then play Danny Ward in goal. 

 

[pmcla26]

12 hours ago, bovril said:

I've been thinking about this too much today and I've decided it's mostly down to which teams were top division when you started watching football 

To some extent, Wigan, Stoke and Bolton were all often in the Premier League when I started watching football, and I don’t really look at any of them as big clubs.

[pmcla26]

47 minutes ago, MattFox said:

Exactly this

 

Saw something going around a while back where people were nostalgic for the likes of Wigan and Bolton in the PL

 

Give it 15 years and you’ll see the same about Bournemouth and Brentford 

Hopefully it’ll be ‘who remembers when Forest had THAT season’ when they’re relegated in two years time and don’t come back for another 20 years. 

[Staffs Fox]

I think there’s definite truth in nostalgia playing a part in our perception of things. 
 

For example I was born in 1986 so my earliest footballing memories are just as the Premier League era started, therefore I think of clubs like Sheffield Wednesday, Blackburn and Middlesbrough as top flight teams whereas because I’ve been used to seeing Brighton, Brentford and Bournemouth slogging it out in the lower divisions for most my life, I can’t get used to them being in the Premier League no matter how long they stay.

 

If someone said to me, list a table of how the Premier League should look based on history, it’d probably like identical to 96-97😂

 

Same with the World Cup, my favourite is 98 (although I have great memories of 2006)

[Spudulike]

The all time Premier League table gives the best indication of success in the modern era...

 

https://www.football365.com/premier-league/table/all-time-premier-league-table

 

[bovril]

14 hours ago, MattFox said:

Kind of agree with Derby

 

But Leicester and Nottingham are very equally matched city’s in terms of architecture, industry and economic standing/history
 

Even the housing  stock is very similar 

 

Way more similar than Leicester and Coventry for example 

You're right but I think Nottinghamshire is associated more with industrial grittiness than Leicestershire amongst the wider British population. Maybe it's DH Lawrence...

[Ted Maul]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

France 98, what a tournament 

I would have been 8, absolute class. Remember being in Corfu for the Argentina game, big screen outside, tables knocked over and drenched in beer when Campbell scored and nobody realising it had been disallowed for ages.

[bovril]

1 minute ago, Ted Maul said:

I would have been 8, absolute class. Remember being in Corfu for the Argentina game, big screen outside, tables knocked over and drenched in beer when Campbell scored and nobody realising it had been disallowed for ages.

Mental image now of you as an 8 year old hooligan chucking pints of lager in the air

[Foxdiamond]

14 hours ago, bovril said:

I've been thinking about this too much today and I've decided it's mostly down to which teams were top division when you started watching football 

Yep agreed. 1963 for me so Leicester were a top division side in the middle of their longest run in the top division. Fulham is an interesting one for me. Prime London location but won nowt and overshadowed by Chelsea etc. I know they are known to have a few celebrity fans but their rank and file support deserves a bit of credit. Perhaps the lustre of Johnny Haynes and George Cohen is still a factor.

[bovril]

38 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

Yep agreed. 1963 for me so Leicester were a top division side in the middle of their longest run in the top division. Fulham is an interesting one for me. Prime London location but won nowt and overshadowed by Chelsea etc. I know they are known to have a few celebrity fans but their rank and file support deserves a bit of credit. Perhaps the lustre of Johnny Haynes and George Cohen is still a factor.

Fulham are not a big club but they feel more 'proper' than most to me because of their stadium and because of the area of London. The Johnny Haynes stand with his statue outside is one of the properest stands in the Premier. Though they lose points for the new riverside stand and its rooftop pool 

Edited 15 May 2025 by bovril

[Steve Earle]

2 hours ago, bovril said:

France 98, what a tournament 

No World Cup is ever going to come close to Mexico 1970!

 

For 95% of FT users, I apologise - but do ask your Dad or Grandad...

[Fox92]

23 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

Yeah this, also people acting like clubs with larger catchment areas and attendances, your Sunderlands and your Leeds for example, somehow "deserve" to be in the Premier League while clubs with little stadiums (Bournemouth, Brentford, Fulham) don't. 

 

**** the fact that Sunderland were ran like a horror show and plummeted on merit and that Brentford are a really enviably run club. 

 

The love in Leeds get is a joke. By population Leeds is one of the top 5 Cities in the Country but it is the only City with 1 club. Of course their support is going to be massive, they have the whole City and urban area to pick from. Plus the catchment area and basically whole of West Yorkshire is traditionally "smaller" clubs (aside from one period for Huddersfield 100 years ago). Nobody from Leeds is going to support Bradford or Halifax. Yet flip it the other way and there's a chance people from those areas support Leeds. Also on what they've won, I think probably one more trophy than us!? They had one dominant era and then popped up and won the first division in the 90's. Also don't get me started on singing about a European Cup they've never ever won.