Israeli and Palestinian conflict

[Jon the Hat]

10 hours ago, leicsmac said:

When you flip a coin and it will come down heads, tails or edge, that is a fact.

That the Earth is approximately 90 million miles (or eight light minutes) from the Sun, that is a fact.

That the Japanese government surrendered at the end of World War II on the 15th August 1945, that is also a fact and a matter of historical record.

 

Hamas being terrorists - as opposed to being labelled as them by the Western nations - is, again rightly or wrongly, a matter of opinion. The distinction between these political observations and empirical fact is small but it is critically important, and the BBC should not be pushed into making such judgements themselves. They really also shouldn't be referring to Israel in the way you describe here either, unless they are reporting what a third party has said.

They literally just murdered over 1200 people in a day.  Raped women, killed babies, abducted grandmothers.  If you don't think that is by any definition terrorism then you are being deliberately obtuse.

[Jon the Hat]

6 hours ago, MPH said:

 

 

I agree completely. And whilst  i dont usually use Twitter to verify anything factual, i think it does still prove that there ARE Israelis celebrating right now, even if they are the worst kind..

I don't see them partying in the streets around the world celebrating the murder of men women and children though. 

[Jon the Hat]

3 hours ago, SecretPro said:

UnaVoIDaBLe JuSTiFieD CoLLatEraL

What would you have them do?  Wait for the next attack?  Hamas brought this upon themselves and the Palestian people.  Hamas put their weapons and fighters in the hospitals and schools.  It is what they do.  

Edited 13 October 2023 by Jon the Hat

[Jattdogg]

2 hours ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

See shit like this, how can anyone seek to justify it. Whatever has happened, it’s wrong. And as Daniel Levy said earlier this week on the BBC, not calling it out is war mongering. You’ll get utter morons without the sense of any decent values giving off accusations of agenda’s, motivation or whatever else  but how can you not question this. 

 

Yes, Israel needs to defend itself and what happened on Saturday needed a strong response. However, the freehand they have and are being given for actions that would horrify decent people if it was occurring anywhere else in the world is ridiculous.
 

And this criticism isn’t about the Israeli people just as much as it isn’t about the Palestinian people. There was a video today of a cabinet minister being shouted out of hospital by Israelis who were saying “they had destroyed the country”. 
 

Good, normal people on both sides are being killed now. And the actions and choices of Hamas and the orders on the IDF are despicable. 

You know at times i wondered, if you took hamas, hezbollox, maybe even idf and government from both sides away. Stripped it down to the core palestinian or israeli (remove the extremist citizens from both sides too) i bet they could find better solutions in a  tough situation.  Sure, it wouldn't be smooth but real people with real voices might actually accomplish something even if that something is very small.

 

Pipe dream and lay off the cocaine, i know.

Edited 13 October 2023 by Jattdogg

[MPH]

I’ve watched a lot of Rick Steve’s’ travel videos.

 

This was 8 years ago, but it stays fairly balanced.

 

 

[Torquay Gunner]

So Israel now tells the entire population of 1.1 million in  Gaza City to relocate south, within 24 hours before they invade it.  The UN have called the order impossible and has urged Israel to revoke it, as it will ' have devastating humanitarian consequences'.  Meanwhile, no Western politician will dare criticize Israel over it's bombardment of Gaza, or it's cutting off the region's water supply and electricity.  I have no problem with them wanting to wipe Hamas out, if that was even possible, but I do have a problem with their methodology .  I am so proud to be a member of the human race right now.  

[Mickyblueeyes]

Alicia Kearns, Tory MP breaking ranks it seems.

[Lionator]

21 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Alicia Kearns, Tory MP breaking ranks it seems.

There was a bloke on LBC saying that behind closed doors they’re all saying this but in public they’re taking the aggressive stand. Kearns is correct and has been in her media appearances since it all began on Saturday with the savage attack. 

[Lionator]

The best thing I think Israel could do is instead of laying siege, would be to double down on normalising relations with the Saudi’s. Short term it would be painful but that’s the fastest way to making a long term peace for the next generations.

 

Sadly that would take level headedness which clearly does not exist in the Israeli ranks. 

[CosbehFox]

8 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

I don't see them partying in the streets around the world celebrating the murder of men women and children though. 

I take you’ve never seen the annual March of Flags? A celebration of Israel’s victory in the six day war. 
 

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/18/israeli-nationalists-march-to-celebrate-capture-of-east-jerusalem

 

Includes utter nut jobs chanting ‘death to all Arabs’ 

[Mickyblueeyes]

France banning pro-Palestinian protests - erm, what are the good guy rules again ? 

[Happy Fox]

Grant Shapps is a useless barsteward he genuinely thinks 40,000 Palestinians will be able to move every hour from the North to the South.

 

 

[Zear0]

33 minutes ago, Happy Fox said:

Grant Shapps is a useless barsteward he genuinely thinks 40,000 Palestinians will be able to move every hour from the North to the South.

 

 

Probably could have stopped after barsteward tbh. 

[st albans fox]

French teacher stabbed to death in arras 

now arras is not in the Middle East but I suspect this murder is related to current events in the Middle East 

I presume the assailant was simply answering the call from the Hamas leadership in Qatar for a day of rage to occur across the world today  -  Qatar …… who are about to buy the biggest football club in this country ….

Edited 13 October 2023 by st albans fox

[Robo61]

10 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

They literally just murdered over 1200 people in a day.  Raped women, killed babies, abducted grandmothers.  If you don't think that is by any definition terrorism then you are being deliberately obtuse.

I don't hear anyone here or elsewhere saying that they don't think it is terrorism.  An organisatiuon choosing not to say it is not the same as trherm not thinking it.  This has been a long held policy of the BBC not only as part of their committment to objective reporting but to also to mitigate the risks their reporters take every day to ensure we continue to recieve live reports from war zones all around the world.   

[MPH]

2 hours ago, Lionator said:

The best thing I think Israel could do is instead of laying siege, would be to double down on normalising relations with the Saudi’s. Short term it would be painful but that’s the fastest way to making a long term peace for the next generations.

 

Sadly that would take level headedness which clearly does not exist in the Israeli ranks. 

 

i don’t see how this would help their ongoing issues with Hamas at all….. if Hamas get out on this unscathed, they’ll just be planning something else..

[st albans fox]

3 minutes ago, Robo61 said:

I don't hear anyone here or elsewhere saying that they don't think it is terrorism.  An organisatiuon choosing not to say it is not the same as trherm not thinking it.  This has been a long held policy of the BBC not only as part of their committment to objective reporting but to also to mitigate the risks their reporters take every day to ensure we continue to recieve live reports from war zones all around the world.   

I understand it  -  bbc journalists have tweeted the term before in other incidents and claim that this was on their personal SM accounts rather than official bbc ones.  

I would assume that a bbc journalist wanting to retain objectivity shouldn’t have a personal SM account ?? 

 

[Trav Le Bleu]

10 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

They literally just murdered over 1200 people in a day.  Raped women, killed babies, abducted grandmothers.  If you don't think that is by any definition terrorism then you are being deliberately obtuse.

@leicsmac is being neutral.

 

The problem with being neutral is that you get accusations of from both sides of being on the other.

[st albans fox]

7 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

@leicsmac is being neutral.

 

The problem with being neutral is that you get accusations of from both sides of being on the other.

Generally because those who accuse will come from their standpoint and interpret what they read rather than actually read.  sadly you really have to choose your words if you want to try and be neutral. 

 

as long as people are respectful in their responses then i expect those who are neutral will deal with it 

[leicsmac]

Things on here have remained broadly civil IMO - and we can keep it so.

[Mickyblueeyes]

3 hours ago, Lionator said:

The best thing I think Israel could do is instead of laying siege, would be to double down on normalising relations with the Saudi’s. Short term it would be painful but that’s the fastest way to making a long term peace for the next generations.

 

Sadly that would take level headedness which clearly does not exist in the Israeli ranks. 

It sounds great and would be a perfect step but with the politics in the Middle East, this could actually cause them more problems in the long term. The criticism the UAE got for normalisation would be minuscule compared to Iran and possibly Qatar’s reaction to Saudi and Israel normalising relationships. 
 

 

[MPH]

Not sure  24 hrs notice is enough time to pack up and leave for 1.1 m people..

 

might be a case of “ we’ve wondered in the wilderness before so you can to”.

[Zear0]

1 minute ago, MPH said:

Not sure  24 hrs notice is enough time to pack up and leave for 1.1 m people..

 

might be a case of “ we’ve wondered in the wilderness before so you can to”.

And let's them say "well we did warn you.." pure tokenistic gesture to absolve themselves of the forthcoming civilian massacre. 

[st albans fox]

1 minute ago, Zear0 said:

And let's them say "well we did warn you.." pure tokenistic gesture to absolve themselves of the forthcoming civilian massacre. 

Pretty sure that they won’t come in on the ground tomorrow - you wouldn’t give your enemy (this is war between Israel and Hamas) specific notice of your arrival 

 

I read that israel are intent on destroying the tunnel structure below ground as best they can because that’s where Hamas will likely be fighting from.  That will involve even heavier bombing than seen this week.  
 

been doing some reading up on the water and power situation in Gaza.  I think the power is the main issue for water supply - Israel itself is not the main supplier of water in Gaza.  Israel’s judgement is that there should have been sufficient diesel in Gaza to enable the electricity to have stayed on for at least ten days.  The fact that it’s not means that either

a) it’s been put aside to keep generators on at medical facilities 

b) Hamas have taken it for their own power needs 

[Foxdiamond]

51 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

French teacher stabbed to death in arras 

now arras is not in the Middle East but I suspect this murder is related to current events in the Middle East 

I presume the assailant was simply answering the call from the Hamas leadership in Qatar for a day of rage to occur across the world today  -  Qatar …… who are about to buy the biggest football club in this country ….

If this proves to be the motive this is just the  sort of act that arouses more fear in western countries and loses more sympathy for people seen to be associated with rightly or wrongly