General News

[Dr The Singh]

25 minutes ago, Sampson said:

You don’t fix your economy by not caring about what happens in the rest of the world. And you certainly don’t reduce refugee numbers by doing it.

 

Just look at the US economy tanking and food prices going through the roof as it tries to pull foreign aid and turn isolationist.

 

Not to mention it will come back and bite you years later. You really think the US suddenly pulling aid from Jordan as it tries to build democratic institutions is not just creating a recipe for future attacks on the west or more refugees coming to the west from thieve countries in the future? 
 

Not to mention, due to its island nature with limited resources and climate options, UK’s economy is always going to be inherently dependent on having peaceful and economically thriving European neighbours. 
 

“Why are spending money on aid to Ukraine and refugees instead of at home” misses the point, you spend this money abroad so it doesn’t cause way more costs at home in the future. 

Maybe I'm not as knowledgeable as you.  But how has stopping foreign aid got any impact on any economy???  That's just bull

Edited 15 March by Dr The Singh

[Sly]

So, what’s Trumps plan with Canada?
 

Bully it? 

Invade it? 
Make everyone think he’s a tool? 

[Lionator]

9 hours ago, Sampson said:

You don’t fix your economy by not caring about what happens in the rest of the world. And you certainly don’t reduce refugee numbers by doing it.

 

Just look at the US economy tanking and food prices going through the roof as it tries to pull foreign aid and turn isolationist.

 

Not to mention it will come back and bite you years later. You really think the US suddenly pulling aid from Jordan as it tries to build democratic institutions is not just creating a recipe for future attacks on the west or more refugees coming to the west from thieve countries in the future? 
 

Not to mention, due to its island nature with limited resources and climate options, UK’s economy is always going to be inherently dependent on having peaceful and economically thriving European neighbours. 
 

“Why are spending money on aid to Ukraine and refugees instead of at home” misses the point, you spend this money abroad so it doesn’t cause way more costs at home in the future. 

It’s not hard to invest in defence and also not cut things like PIP. I know there’s little crossover in terms of where the money is coming from but the optics for the politically disengaged are obvious. The obvious solution is to pay for both by wealth tax if it really is that big of an issue, then those with the actual money should pick up the bill. 
 

Or maybe we need a bit more mental health stigma, outlining how those that can’t work are feckless and lazy, destroying the country while simultaneously hyping that Russia will invade the country next week. The two biggest threats the economy of this country, the disabled and Putin. 

Edited 16 March by Lionator

[Sampson]

3 hours ago, Lionator said:

It’s not hard to invest in defence and also not cut things like PIP. I know there’s little crossover in terms of where the money is coming from but the optics for the politically disengaged are obvious. The obvious solution is to pay for both by wealth tax if it really is that big of an issue, then those with the actual money should pick up the bill. 
 

Or maybe we need a bit more mental health stigma, outlining how those that can’t work are feckless and lazy, destroying the country while simultaneously hyping that Russia will invade the country next week. The two biggest threats the economy of this country, the disabled and Putin. 

I don’t disagree with you on the first part. I’m not sure why you think I do. I was responding to someone moaning about how we spend money on defence and refugees but not on other areas. My point is populist politicians have long used things like spending on immigration and defence as scapegoats for populist ideas about “why isn’t your life better? We could spend elsewhere instead of on these things that don’t immediately affect you short-term”.
 

Very few western economies have worked since the 2008 financial crisis in terms of making better lives for the working or middle class, that isn’t a UK specific problem, it’s as relevant in Japan, Australia and Germany as it is in the UK.

 

The biggest problem facing western economies is population ageing, but immigration and defence spending become easy scapegoats, as population ageing is an inherently political impossible question to bring up.  Western countries have still not really got to grips with this despite it being a known problem for decades. How we deal with it I have no idea, but falling for traps about “why do we spend on immigration and defence?” isn’t helpful and one of the reasons populism is winning at the moment in the west. 

Edited 16 March by Sampson

[Lionator]

29 minutes ago, Sampson said:

I don’t disagree with you on the first part. I’m not sure why you think I do. I was responding to someone moaning about how we spend money on defence and refugees but not on other areas. My point is populist politicians have long used things like spending on immigration and defence as scapegoats for populist ideas about “why isn’t your life better? We could spend elsewhere instead of on these things that don’t immediately affect you short-term”.
 

Very few western economies have worked since the 2008 financial crisis in terms of making better lives for the working or middle class, that isn’t a UK specific problem, it’s as relevant in Japan, Australia and Germany as it is in the UK.

 

The biggest problem facing western economies is population ageing, but immigration and defence spending become easy scapegoats, but population ageing is an inherently political impossible question to bring up.  Western countries have still not really got to grips with this despite it being a known problem for decades. How we deal with it I have no idea, but falling for traps about “why do we spend on immigration and defence?” isn’t helpful and one of the reasons populism is winning at the moment in the west. 

Sorry, I misinterpreted what you said. You’re right and the aging thing is correct. Given how the older generation are much more politically engaged just makes things even more difficult. There was a furore over the winter fuel allowance, let’s see if the older folk are as sympathetic to the cause of younger people with disability having their welfare funds frozen while the triple lock goes up.

Edited 16 March by Lionator

[leicsmac]

I think that one reason why most governments aren't grasping the nettle wrt the aging demographic issue is because, as far as I can tell, there is no good option to deal with it, only bad ones. It's about choosing the best bad idea, which then they'll have to carry the can for.

 

So they're kicking the can down the road and praying it won't be them that has to deal with the fallout when it all goes tits-up.

 

The same could, sadly, be said of quite a few other issues with difficult solutions requiring long term thought. A rather unfortunate flaw in fixed short term democratic systems.

[Sampson]

28 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I think that one reason why most governments aren't grasping the nettle wrt the aging demographic issue is because, as far as I can tell, there is no good option to deal with it, only bad ones. It's about choosing the best bad idea, which then they'll have to carry the can for.

 

So they're kicking the can down the road and praying it won't be them that has to deal with the fallout when it all goes tits-up.

 

The same could, sadly, be said of quite a few other issues with difficult solutions requiring long term thought. A rather unfortunate flaw in fixed short term democratic systems.

I’m not sure how you do grasp the nettle though. You saw what happened in France when they tried to raise the retirement age by just 2 years or the winter fuel allowance causing massive drops in the poll by the government here in the UK just a few months ago. 

 

The problem is if it gets to the stage where the average voting age is 60, you can’t really start doing things that financially harm this sector of society when there’s some populist who will scream to high heaven they’re giving all this money to other causes and taking it from the voting population.

 

A decade ago it was assumed that you could increase immigration and import workers from abroad to increase tax payers, but the populists have successfully weaponised immigration so much that increasing immigration numbers is also becoming politically impossible. 
 

I dunno. We’re all working more now to deal with the impact of it and 60 hour work weeks will probably be on the agenda at some point sadly.

Edited 16 March by Sampson

[blabyboy]

13 hours ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

It's not surprising that the vast majority of sci-fi is dystopian.

 

It's only dystopian if you look at it when compared to another point in time. When you're in that moment, when you've grown and adapted to that existence it is less so.

 

It is a problem that continues to endure because people are losing the ability to accept change and embrace it.

 

"It was always better in my day"

Edited 16 March by blabyboy

[davieG]

 

Russell Stephen Edwards   · 

Follow

Brick Lane. London E1 today…

[blabyboy]

21 minutes ago, Sampson said:

I’m not sure how you do grasp the nettle though. You saw what happened in France when they tried to raise the retirement age by just 2 years or the winter fuel allowance causing massive drops in the poll by the government here in the UK just a few months ago. 

 

The problem is if it gets to the stage where the average voting age is 60, you can’t really start doing things that financially harm this sector of society when there’s some populist who will scream to high heaven they’re giving all this money to other causes and taking it from the voting population.

 

A decade ago it was assumed that you could increase immigration and import workers from abroad to increase tax payers, but the populists have successfully weaponised immigration so much that increasing immigration numbers is also becoming politically impossible. 
 

I dunno. We’re all working more now to deal with the impact of it and 60 hour work weeks will probably be on the agenda at some point sadly.

One part of the solution would be a change in mindset that people are ' on the scrapheap ' when they retire... There are people that are forced out of jobs due to their age when they could be redeployed into other aspects around their original position if they wanted to.

 

Anecdotally, look at how young kids and older people engage with each other in mixed settings might be a start.

 

We throw a lot of experience away as a nation when people hit 65/66/67 ... whatever the next retirement age bump will be.

[blabyboy]

"A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit."

 

We will continue to wither and die until we regain this general attitude to life.

Edited 16 March by blabyboy

[Lionator]

1 minute ago, blabyboy said:

"A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit."

 

We will continue to wither and die until we regain this attitude.

Young people are despised in the country. They’re seen as ungrateful purely for aiming to have the same opportunity as their forebearers. How dare we. 

[leicsmac]

29 minutes ago, Sampson said:

I’m not sure how you do grasp the nettle though. You saw what happened in France when they tried to raise the retirement age by just 2 years or the winter fuel allowance causing massive drops in the poll by the government here in the UK just a few months ago. 

 

The problem is if it gets to the stage where the average voting age is 60, you can’t really start doing things that financially harm this sector of society when there’s some populist who will scream to high heaven they’re giving all this money to other causes and taking it from the voting population.

 

A decade ago it was assumed that you could increase immigration and import workers from abroad to increase tax payers, but the populists have successfully weaponised immigration so much that increasing immigration numbers is also becoming politically impossible. 
 

I dunno. We’re all working more now to deal with the impact of it and 60 hour work weeks will probably be on the agenda at some point sadly.

That's all pretty much spot on.

 

It is a terribly difficult problem to deal with within the parameters of a democratic system, but doing nothing about it will end up worse.

 

 

18 minutes ago, blabyboy said:

It's only dystopian if you look at it when compared to another point in time. When you're in that moment, when you've grown and adapted to that existence it is less so.

 

It is a problem that continues to endure because people are losing the ability to accept change and embrace it.

 

"It was always better in my day"

This is true.

 

Though I would add the rather obvious caveat that when the change is or may be overwhelmingly negative, that requires attention.

[blabyboy]

19 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Young people are despised in the country. They’re seen as ungrateful purely for aiming to have the same opportunity as their forebearers. How dare we. 

I think that's a very jaundiced (and possibly personal experience?) view. The young are (obviously) the future and more power to them.

 

The general point I was trying to make is that political class, and you could argue the middle-aged and older populace as well, are too short sighted and think mainly of themselves (I also realise that this is a generalisation). They want jam today and not tomorrow, they enact policies that they think can be delivered in less than 5 years, when we actually need to put things in place that won't be achieved for decades in some cases.

[Dr The Singh]

13 hours ago, Dr The Singh said:

Maybe I'm not as knowledgeable as you.  But how has stopping foreign aid got any impact on any economy???  That's just bull

Too much rum punch last night

[davieG]

1 hour ago, blabyboy said:

One part of the solution would be a change in mindset that people are ' on the scrapheap ' when they retire... There are people that are forced out of jobs due to their age when they could be redeployed into other aspects around their original position if they wanted to.

 

Anecdotally, look at how young kids and older people engage with each other in mixed settings might be a start.

 

We throw a lot of experience away as a nation when people hit 65/66/67 ... whatever the next retirement age bump will be.

When I hit 50 there was a drive to get people like me to retire early and take their work place pension to free up jobs for the younger generation. So lots of businesses took advantage of this and made people hitting 50 redundant. I was made redundant from my Snr Management role and ended up trying to find a job even part-time but I was too old or over skilled no one wanted to take a chance on me. After 100s 0f applications I got a part time job with LCCC but was again made redundant after a couple of years. 

 

Even low level jobs I couldn't get as they assumed I'd leave if something better came along, for jobs suited to my skill level I was too old. I only worked on and off then until 65 living on my work pension which was a bit of a struggle as i didn't qualify for unemployment due to my work pension lump sum. So at least I wasn't a drain on the taxpayer or contributing to the low productivity.

 

People assume because you're old and not working your well off.  The advice I was given to take my work pension early was very bad.

 

I'm not even convinced it created more jobs for the young as companies used it to re-organise and reduce overheads .

 

[davieG]

1 hour ago, Lionator said:

Young people are despised in the country. They’re seen as ungrateful purely for aiming to have the same opportunity as their forebearers. How dare we. 

As someone who worked with apprentices and young graduates I don't believe that. If you're hard working and ambitious most organisations will welcome you.

 

The people that are despised young or old are those putting nothing and expecting everything out. 

[Torquay Gunner]

1 minute ago, davieG said:

When I hit 50 there was a drive to get people like me to retire early and take their work place pension to free up jobs for the younger generation. So lots of businesses took advantage of this and made people hitting 50 redundant. I was made redundant from my Snr Management role and ended up trying to find a job even part-time but I was too old or over skilled no one wanted to take a chance on me. After 100s 0f applications I got a part time job with LCCC but was again made redundant after a couple of years. 

 

Even low level jobs I couldn't get as they assumed I'd leave if something better came along, for jobs suited to my skill level I was too old. I only worked on and off then until 65 living on my work pension which was a bit of a struggle as i didn't qualify for unemployment due to my work pension lump sum. So at least I wasn't a drain on the taxpayer or contributing to the low productivity.

 

People assume because you're old and not working your well off.  The advice I was given to take my work pension early was very bad.

 

I'm not even convinced it created more jobs for the young as companies used it to re-organise and reduce overheads .

 

Can empathize with that.  I need to supplement my work pension with some part time work, but as someone in their sixties I am finding it very difficult.  I went for a interview last week for 2 part time positions at my local library.  I didn't get the job, but the manager who interviewed me told me they had received 225 applications and had short listed 13 people for interview!  There really isn't much of a job market for my age group. 

[Jattdogg]

7 hours ago, Sly said:

So, what’s Trumps plan with Canada?
 

Bully it? 

Invade it? 
Make everyone think he’s a tool? 

He is trying to bully us. He can fook off though!

[Trav Le Bleu]

2 hours ago, blabyboy said:

It's only dystopian if you look at it when compared to another point in time. When you're in that moment, when you've grown and adapted to that existence it is less so.

 

It is a problem that continues to endure because people are losing the ability to accept change and embrace it.

 

"It was always better in my day"

So Max, Deckard, John Connor, et al, should just embrace the new normal?

[Free Falling Foxes]

3 hours ago, blabyboy said:

One part of the solution would be a change in mindset that people are ' on the scrapheap ' when they retire... There are people that are forced out of jobs due to their age when they could be redeployed into other aspects around their original position if they wanted to.

 

Anecdotally, look at how young kids and older people engage with each other in mixed settings might be a start.

 

We throw a lot of experience away as a nation when people hit 65/66/67 ... whatever the next retirement age bump will be.

I retired a couple of years ago. One of the first things I did was to join several other 'oldies' and give up some of our free time to help with 11 and 12 year old at our local college, who need extra support with their reading.

You don't have to be on the scrapheap and, crucially, young and old can engage in a mutually beneficial way.

 

Also, it is far too simplistic to try and alienate/blame these two groups from one another and to claim one is much better off (or worse off) than the other - as some try to do.

[blabyboy]

1 hour ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

So Max, Deckard, John Connor, et al, should just embrace the new normal?

Yes. To them, in that moment, that is their normal. By looking back or being reminded of another time, they can then make a comparison. Well, at least the first two can, Deckard is more complicated due to the replicant question and what it is to be human.

 

Whether they see that as dystopian relies on lots of variables to get to that point.

[Bilo]

3 hours ago, Lionator said:

Young people are despised in the country. They’re seen as ungrateful purely for aiming to have the same opportunity as their forebearers. How dare we. 

It's always been the same. Some of the things said by Ancient Greek philosophers about young people could have come straight out of a Daily Mail comments section. 

 

That being said, Boomers as a generation benefited from enormous freedom and prosperity during the post-war consensus, with full employment, readily available housing, excellent public services and free higher education if they wanted it. They then essentially voted it out of existence over many decades and see millennials and Gen Z as selfish and lazy for wanting what they had as young people.

 

It's the standard reaction to younger generations observed for millennia, but turbocharged by social media, right-wing hacks keen to uphold the neoliberal economic hegemony and good, old-fashioned self-interest. 

[Sly]

5 hours ago, Jattdogg said:

He is trying to bully us. He can fook off though!

That’s the spirit! 

[leicsmac]

Two of the tenets of a fascist movement...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvge4l109r3o

 

Denounce and marginalise impartial voices as "partisan"

 

And

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz03gjnxe25o

 

"Other" and marginalise anyone outside the idealised for power in-group (white men).

 

It's not just the Canadians who should be telling them to fvck off in as many ways as possible.