Another Shooting in the US

[Guest MattP]

Attempting to disarm the public is foolish and won't change anything. May I remind you that our gun laws up until 1920's were very relaxed and yet gun crime was trivial.

This clearly is mostly down to social issues in my opinion.

 

I agree, they certainly need tighter controls on who can buy guns and it looks fairly clear the age limit is far far too low given virtually every one of these attacks is commited by a young man, but I still don't see these things stopping, it's a cultural problem.

 

It would be harsh to punish those who have done nothing wrong as well, those people who live far out in the sticks hours and hours away from any police protection shouldn't have to suffer and have their safety compromised because of a small minority of idiots.

[AKCJ]

Attempting to disarm the public is foolish and won't change anything. May I remind you that our gun laws up until 1920's were very relaxed and yet gun crime was trivial.

This clearly is mostly down to social issues in my opinion.

 

 

The social issue being that society has guns.

[Guest MattP]

The social issue being that society has guns.

 

Gun ownership is higher in Switzerland than the USA, why are they not all running around shooting each other?

 

It's also illegal in countries that border America and they generally have a far far higher crime rate than the USA.

[leicsmac]

Matt - I'm interested in hearing your take on this.

 

I think you're right in saying the US is a pretty unique case in this regard, but do you think these murders are due to excessive mental health issues, and that's possibly because of the inaccessibility of quality mental health treatment in the US due to the vagaries of the healthcare system over there? Or do you think there's another cause?

[Guest MattP]

Matt - I'm interested in hearing your take on this.

 

I think you're right in saying the US is a pretty unique case in this regard, but do you think these murders are due to excessive mental health issues, and that's possibly because of the inaccessibility of quality mental health treatment in the US due to the vagaries of the healthcare system over there? Or do you think there's another cause?

 

Well clearly mental health issues are at the centre of it, you can't be of a sound mind to want to do these things, I'm not sure how the doctors would even get to these people in the first place though, we are now being told by his schoolmates this was a decent guy and no one would have questioned him anyway as to mental soundness. The real question is why is the USA producing so many people like this when other countries don't seem to, it's has to be something in the culture.

 

We could put it down to the lack of funding and avaliable healthcare but again many countries have a far worse system than the US with regard to this sort of thing and suffer very few of the problems that they seem too.

 

People also seem to ignore another elephant in the room, virtually every single one of these killers afterwards is revealed to have been taking mind altering drugs, there appears to be a connection between the taking of this drug and the chance of the person commiting some sort of appaling act of unpleasantness. Adam Lanza, the Colorado Killers, the Virginia Tech killer, Lee Rigby's killers, the guy who beheaded the girl in London come to mind off the top of my head and I'm sure the list goes on, it's no wonder people's minds are fcuked up when they continue to pump so much stuff into their bodies.

 

We openly admit there is a correlation between alcohol and violence with a percentage of the people who use it, it's time to also admit this might the case with some drugs, I think it's time we had a wider debate and investigation as to whether the extremely widespread use of this stuff is actually connected to the seemingly steep rise in mental health issues.

Edited 2 October 2015 by MattP

[leicsmac]

Well clearly mental health issues are at the centre of it, you can't be of a sound mind to want to do these things, I'm not sure how the doctors would even get to these people in the first place though, we are now being told by his schoolmates this was a decent guy and no one would have questioned him anyway as to mental soundness. The real question is why is the USA producing so many people like this when other countries don't seem to, it's has to be something in the culture.

 

We could put it down to the lack of funding and avaliable healthcare but again many countries have a far worse system than the US with regard to this sort of thing and suffer very few of the problems that they seem too.

 

People also seem to ignore another elephant in the room, virtually every single one of these killers afterwards is revealed to have been taking mind altering drugs, there appears to be a connection between the taking of this drug and the chance of the person commiting some sort of appaling act of unpleasantness. Adam Lanza, the Colorado Killers, the Virginia Tech killer, Lee Rigby's killers, the guy who beheaded the girl in London come to mind off the top of my head and I'm sure the list goes on, it's no wonder people's minds are fcuked up when they continue to pump so much stuff into their bodies.

 

We openly admit there is a correlation between alcohol and violence with a percentage of the people who use it, it's time to also admit this might the case with some drugs, I think it's time we had a wider debate and investigation as to whether the extremely widespread use of this stuff is actually connected to the seemingly steep rise in mental health issues.

 

Fair enough...interesting point about the drugs too, you do wonder about the effect they have.

 

Personally, I think there needs to be far far better screening for mental health nationwide, coupled with tougher requirements for getting a firearm in the first place. The problem is that the same people in the US who think their access to bear arms is absolute don't think the same way about access to getting mental help. There needs to be compromise on one or the other.

[Guest MattP]

Fair enough...interesting point about the drugs too, you do wonder about the effect they have.

 

Personally, I think there needs to be far far better screening for mental health nationwide, coupled with tougher requirements for getting a firearm in the first place. The problem is that the same people in the US who think their access to bear arms is absolute don't think the same way about access to getting mental help. There needs to be compromise on one or the other.

 

Agree with you, certainly about tougher requirements on who can own, that looks like the serious problem for me.

 

The whole idea of the right to a firearm as I understand it is the right to self defence, quite why a kid who lives on a Uni campus in New York would need that is anyone's guess, it's bizarre they can have the same right to arm themselves as a pensioner living 100 miles from any law enforcement in North Dakota.

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

Hard to keep thinking 'oh no, feel for them' over and over again when America clearly doesn't want to do anything to combat it.

[RedSoxUK]

Well clearly mental health issues are at the centre of it, you can't be of a sound mind to want to do these things, I'm not sure how the doctors would even get to these people in the first place though, we are now being told by his schoolmates this was a decent guy and no one would have questioned him anyway as to mental soundness. The real question is why is the USA producing so many people like this when other countries don't seem to, it's has to be something in the culture.

 

We could put it down to the lack of funding and avaliable healthcare but again many countries have a far worse system than the US with regard to this sort of thing and suffer very few of the problems that they seem too.

 

People also seem to ignore another elephant in the room, virtually every single one of these killers afterwards is revealed to have been taking mind altering drugs, there appears to be a connection between the taking of this drug and the chance of the person commiting some sort of appaling act of unpleasantness. Adam Lanza, the Colorado Killers, the Virginia Tech killer, Lee Rigby's killers, the guy who beheaded the girl in London come to mind off the top of my head and I'm sure the list goes on, it's no wonder people's minds are fcuked up when they continue to pump so much stuff into their bodies.

 

We openly admit there is a correlation between alcohol and violence with a percentage of the people who use it, it's time to also admit this might the case with some drugs, I think it's time we had a wider debate and investigation as to whether the extremely widespread use of this stuff is actually connected to the seemingly steep rise in mental health issues.

 

Remember this is relatable to the extreme cases where a lunatic shoots up a school, or a mall, or a theater - and they are lunatics, a very slim percentage of people are mentally capable of commiting such atrocities.

 

And the actual, factual statistics of mass shootings in America isn't actually overproportionate to what is expected from a country theie size and pop with permissive gun laws, sure there's been a steep rise, but based on population and deaths via mass shootings, you see the statistic which backs this up, Norway, Findland, Switzerland (all restrictrive and stricter gun laws than US) are higher than the US in terms of mass shooting fatalities per 1m pop.

 

Most definitely in the case of mass shootings like this it's a health, culture, and psychotic problem. In terms of every day gun violence something really needs to be done.

[SMX11]

Well clearly mental health issues are at the centre of it, you can't be of a sound mind to want to do these things, I'm not sure how the doctors would even get to these people in the first place though, we are now being told by his schoolmates this was a decent guy and no one would have questioned him anyway as to mental soundness. The real question is why is the USA producing so many people like this when other countries don't seem to, it's has to be something in the culture.

 

We could put it down to the lack of funding and avaliable healthcare but again many countries have a far worse system than the US with regard to this sort of thing and suffer very few of the problems that they seem too.

 

People also seem to ignore another elephant in the room, virtually every single one of these killers afterwards is revealed to have been taking mind altering drugs, there appears to be a connection between the taking of this drug and the chance of the person commiting some sort of appaling act of unpleasantness. Adam Lanza, the Colorado Killers, the Virginia Tech killer, Lee Rigby's killers, the guy who beheaded the girl in London come to mind off the top of my head and I'm sure the list goes on, it's no wonder people's minds are fcuked up when they continue to pump so much stuff into their bodies.

 

We openly admit there is a correlation between alcohol and violence with a percentage of the people who use it, it's time to also admit this might the case with some drugs, I think it's time we had a wider debate and investigation as to whether the extremely widespread use of this stuff is actually connected to the seemingly steep rise in mental health issues.

 

Is was about to post something similar. It will be interesting whether this individual was also a regular user of drugs.

[Fox92]

Sounds horrific. Wonder if the reports are true. Today I read he said "prepare to meet God.. in a second".

[MPH]

Matt - I'm interested in hearing your take on this.

 

I think you're right in saying the US is a pretty unique case in this regard, but do you think these murders are due to excessive mental health issues, and that's possibly because of the inaccessibility of quality mental health treatment in the US due to the vagaries of the healthcare system over there? Or do you think there's another cause?

 

 

 

In my opinion, i think part of the issue is the American Constitution and how it is being expanded on., but not so much the right to bare arms..... Bit of a piggy situation really - all people are equal but some are more equal than others. kind of twist on words.

 

 

 

I keep getting told about " we the people" and that the People are the government . And whilst that is true  in some respect for all democratically elected governments, it seems almost enshrined into the mentality here by events like the Boston tea party. Concisely, if 'we the people' don't like how we are being represented, then they feel they have a right to take matters into their own hands because WE are the government, not those that sit in big chairs in expensive suites.

 

 

 

And i get that. I do.

 

 

 

But are they really saying that there are 300 million governments running around the streets who can take matters into their own hands?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Having said all that, the Gun man has now been identified as being British-born with sympathies in his online portfolio to the IRA..

Edited 2 October 2015 by MPH

[MPH]

Sounds horrific. Wonder if the reports are true. Today I read he said "prepare to meet God.. in a second".

 

 

 

Yes, he asked everyone what their religion was and those who identified themselves as being Christians, he killed..

Edited 2 October 2015 by MPH

[lgfualol]

There are too many problems with America, you can't really do anything. Barely any mental health support and shite health care system where people die because they can't afford medicine, extreme bullying, extreme religion in some parts, increasing paranoia, media that loves stiring shit, etc. I mean this is a country where Donald Trump is getting support. Donald Trump. If Sandy Hook didn't change anything, then what will ever happen.

Edited 2 October 2015 by lgfualol

[Great Boos Up]

There are too many problems with America, you can't really do anything. Barely any mental health support and shite health care system where people die because they can't afford medicine, extreme bullying, extreme religion in some parts, increasing paranoia, media that loves stiring shit, etc. I mean this is a country where Donald Trump is getting support. Donald Trump. If Sandy Hook didn't change anything, then what will ever happen.

So in fact what you are saying is:

 

There's too many men  too many people making too many problems

And not much love to go round

Can't you see this is a land of confusion and this is the world we live in and these are the hands we're given.

Use them and let's start trying to make it a place worth living in.

Ooh Superman where are you now, when everything's gone wrong somehow

 

[Izzy]

There are too many problems with America, you can't really do anything. Barely any mental health support and shite health care system where people die because they can't afford medicine, extreme bullying, extreme religion in some parts, increasing paranoia, media that loves stiring shit, etc. I mean this is a country where Donald Trump is getting support. Donald Trump. If Sandy Hook didn't change anything, then what will ever happen.

 

I play golf with an American guy who spends 6 months a year over here and 6 months back in the States. He owns his own guns at his home in Florida and hates the idea of stricter gun control - it's his constitutional right to carry arms!! as he keeps reminding me. His fear is that if there was ever an Amnesty over there, all the good guys may hand the guns in, but the gangs wouldn't - and they would therefore have an 'advantage'. I told him that he sounds paranoid and his answer was 'yep, we all are - and that's why we all own guns!'. Sounds like they all live in a state of constant fear.

[lgfualol]

Wasn't the reason they made the right to carry arms because they were paranoid that us Brits were going to come back for the land?

It's been hundreds of years and the same paranoia (albeit not so much because of us Brits) still lingers.

[Detroit Blues]

Wasn't the reason they made the right to carry arms because they were paranoid that us Brits were going to come back for the land?

It's been hundreds of years and the same paranoia (albeit not so much because of us Brits) still lingers.

 

It was to protect the american people from their own government, not related to defending the country from foreign invaders. But you're absolutely right about your previous post (below).

 

There are too many problems with America, you can't really do anything. Barely any mental health support and shite health care system where people die because they can't afford medicine, extreme bullying, extreme religion in some parts, increasing paranoia, media that loves stiring shit, etc. I mean this is a country where Donald Trump is getting support. Donald Trump. If Sandy Hook didn't change anything, then what will ever happen.

[FireFox]

The Second Amendment: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

 

What the fuch that means exactly, I don't know. But it was written over 200 years ago when firearms are not what they are today, I'd guess most American gun owners are not part of any real militia, and it can probably be argued that "the security of a free State" does not require a well regulated militia or any common person to be bearing arms.

 

The gun issue is only part of the problem, obviously, and the lack of mental health care is another huge part - but, it is arguably more difficult to provide mental health care and change the stigma of receiving any than it is to have more restrictive gun laws. But then me saying something like this is really part of the problem. Theoretically, if mental health care was free and available for all Americans, there is no guarantee a person needing it would seek it, stick with it, or that it would work immediately. And theoretically, if you restrict access to firearms, there is no guarantee that this would stop someone from carrying out a mass killing. And neither gets done when both should be because both would reduce the amount of violent crime (and not just these mass killings).

[marko]

Wasn't the reason they made the right to carry arms because they were paranoid that us Brits were going to come back for the land?

It's been hundreds of years and the same paranoia (albeit not so much because of us Brits) still lingers.

 

I believe it was introduced to allow each state to arm a local militia to protect the citizens of the state.

[Guest]

I play golf with an American guy who spends 6 months a year over here and 6 months back in the States. He owns his own guns at his home in Florida and hates the idea of stricter gun control - it's his constitutional right to carry arms!! as he keeps reminding me. His fear is that if there was ever an Amnesty over there, all the good guys may hand the guns in, but the gangs wouldn't - and they would therefore have an 'advantage'. I told him that he sounds paranoid and his answer was 'yep, we all are - and that's why we all own guns!'. Sounds like they all live in a state of constant fear.

The state of fear is not really surprising given some of the stuff you see pumped out from News Organisations etc. over there

[Stadt]

It's hardly a utopia here but there's some aspects of America that are so backwards.

[sphericalfox]

The state of fear is not really surprising given some of the stuff you see pumped out from News Organisations etc. over there

 

The schools are just as bad.

[Guest MattP]

Not really been a great day for our country has it?

British born lad shoots all those in Oregon and here we sentence 14 year old to life for trying to encourage Australian Islamists to commit beheadings.

depressing it's come to this

[bovril]

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/oct/02/mass-shootings-america-gun-violence

 

Interesting and rather grim reading.