The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

I love my country, and am proud to be British. We are a great island, with a proud history, and I have no desire to see us become even more enmeshed with,  dictated to, and swallowed up, by a bunch of foreigners who kick us around as they wish.

 

If you too, have any vestige of British pride, then don't betray us.  VOTE LEAVE.

[Dodgy Bob]

So the figure of 7% is considerably lower than it should be then.

I think the question then becomes, do we want to build scores - or hundreds - of 'new towns and turn England (because it would largely be England) into one big conurbation, instead of this green and pleasant land?

I for one wouldn't want that.

Nobody would want the entire country to become urbanised but that's not going to happen. Even in my hypothetical scenario where the population quadruples there would still be lots of space. We're talking a few hundred thousand immigrants per year, it barely makes a scratch.

[Dodgy Bob]

And when all these towns have been built do we build lots of new roads .... Would new motorways go alongside the existing ones .. Or over the top ? ... Underground maybe ? Nope .. Wel'll just drive everywhere at 10mph and hope no one crashes or breaks down.

Ridiculous, sorry.

[johnny the fox]

http://metro.co.uk/2016/01/14/privatisation-of-nhs-continues-as-hospital-contract-awarded-to-richard-branson-5622396/

 

Why Branson is backing Dave...

[Countryfox]

Nobody would want the entire country to become urbanised but that's not going to happen. Even in my hypothetical scenario where the population quadruples there would still be lots of space. We're talking a few hundred thousand immigrants per year, it barely makes a scratch.

Quadruples and there is still lots of space ?!?! ..... Come on !!!

Few hundred thousand immigrants per year .... Righto.

[Dodgy Bob]

Re tradesman skills shortages. The last recession is partly to blame for that. Almost a whole generation of potential tradesmen wasn't able to enter the industry because companies weren't offering training due to the poor economic outlook. If you think leaving the EU and plunging the economy into another recession is going to increase the numbers of apprenticeships them I'm sorry but you're living in cloud cuckoo land. Demand will fall, wages will fall, training budgets will be savaged, another generation will miss out.

[Strokes]

Nobody would want the entire country to become urbanised but that's not going to happen. Even in my hypothetical scenario where the population quadruples there would still be lots of space. We're talking a few hundred thousand immigrants per year, it barely makes a scratch.

I actually don't have a problem with the numbers but we are turning away quality to cope with unknown, that is ridiculous.

[Strokes]

Re tradesman skills shortages. The last recession is partly to blame for that. Almost a whole generation of potential tradesmen wasn't able to enter the industry because companies weren't offering training due to the poor economic outlook. If you think leaving the EU and plunging the economy into another recession is going to increase the numbers of apprenticeships them I'm sorry but you're living in cloud cuckoo land. Demand will fall, wages will fall, training budgets will be savaged, another generation will miss out.

Doom Doom Doom!

We don't avoid recessions by being the EU, we won't avoid them after. Short term we might have to tighten our belts but wages will rise faster than they are and people with skills will become more valuable and that is what we should be aiming for. Not keeping a few rich people's stock investments good for another few years.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

So the figure of 7% is considerably lower than it should be then.

I think the question then becomes, do we want to build scores - or hundreds - of 'new towns and turn England (because it would largely be England) into one big conurbation, instead of this green and pleasant land?

I for one wouldn't want that.

And when all these towns have been built do we build lots of new roads .... Would new motorways go alongside the existing ones .. Or over the top ? ... Underground maybe ? Nope .. Wel'll just drive everywhere at 10mph and hope no one crashes or breaks down.

Unfortunately, it's this type of perspective that holds back this country - because too many people want things without consequences and easy answers, when the reality is that's just not possible.

And people talk about wanting higher wages - but that would inevitably lead to higher prices and would effectively achieve nothing.

Yes we need a living wage base, but it's much more important to have an econmy with a larger degree of higher skilled jobs and one where we can reverse the current trade deficit (increase the value of our exports) because that would mean we have more money coming in from outside helping us to pay those wages - but to do that, we will also need inward investment from outside to move the wider economy in that direction.

That is why for me, being in the EU is an essential part of this, because we have captive developed markets inside the EU that we can sell to - but we're protected from being undercut or out muscled by the US, China, Japan, India, Brazil, Russia etc, because they can't trade directly into it without tariffs / restrictions. That also means that for global companies outside of Europe that want to do business inside, it's often in their interests to plonk a base within that zone and this is something we have greatly gained from over the time of being inside.

If we're on the outside of the EU, yes we can cut trade deals with other countries, but we end up losing a unquie positional advantage we had before for getting outside companies to come and invest in the UK - and less inward investment coupled with our current trade deficit (meaning more money is going of the country than coming in) it will make things much, much tougher.

I appreciate this is a bit indepth, but I hope it makes sense - economics is very complex subject, but is a blind fundamental to everyone's lives and chances.

[Buce]

Nobody would want the entire country to become urbanised but that's not going to happen. Even in my hypothetical scenario where the population quadruples there would still be lots of space. We're talking a few hundred thousand immigrants per year, it barely makes a scratch.

I disagree.

Ignoring your hypothetical scenario of quadrupling the population (which would require building circa 200 cities the size of Leicester), a 'few hundred thousand' per year would require one new 'Leicester' per year.

That's unrealistic, unsustainable, and (to me) unwelcome.

[Steven]

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

 

Boswell tells us that Samuel Johnson made this famous pronouncement that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel on the evening of April 7, 1775. He doesn't provide any context for how the remark arose, so we don't really know for sure what was on Johnson's mind at the time.

However, Boswell assures us that Johnson was not indicting patriotism in general, only false patriotism.

[Webbo]

EU referendum: Trade curbs 'foolish' if UK votes Leave, says German industry

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36596060

[Wymsey]

After over a year and 90+ pages, 90% of posters will vote remain?

[Buce]

Am I the only one still undecided how to vote?

[Buce]

After over a year and 90+ pages, 90% of posters will vote remain?

A little over 52% according to the poll.

[Strokes]

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

 

Boswell tells us that Samuel Johnson made this famous pronouncement that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel on the evening of April 7, 1775. He doesn't provide any context for how the remark arose, so we don't really know for sure what was on Johnson's mind at the time.

However, Boswell assures us that Johnson was not indicting patriotism in general, only false patriotism.

Tell that to all the horrible patriotic Scots or Welsh. Or does it only apply to a certain stereotype?

[Strokes]

Am I the only one still undecided how to vote?

I've never been undecided but I hope you join us in leave

[apple987]

Leave now at 5/2 again. Being backed today.

[Steven]

Tell that to all the horrible patriotic Scots or Welsh. Or does it only apply to a certain stereotype?

 

I think the Scots and Welsh are patriots unlike the chancers behind the Brexit campaign.

[Strokes]

I think the Scots and Welsh are patriots unlike the chancers behind the Brexit campaign.

So that's a yes then

[apple987]

I think the Scots and Welsh are patriots unlike the chancers behind the Brexit campaign.

Switzerland have proved it isn't as much as a risk as you make out

[Webbo]

I think the Scots and Welsh are patriots unlike the chancers behind the Brexit campaign.

They're not scoundrels then, like you previously said?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Unless you can show me apprentice/training places are not being taken up, all I can say is they aren't offering enough places, quick enough.

You can train to be an electrician or plumber in three months privately if you forgoe work commitments, how much do they want them? Hell I'd change trades if they were offering the crash courses out paid for, with a job at the end, just add more to my CV.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/too-many-apprenticeships-not-meeting-the-needs-of-young-people-employers-or-the-economy

If you're under 19 I think it is, then have a look because the government funds the place, making it easier to get a placement. If you're over then it's down to the employer, which makes it harder.

[Len Finsbury]

Those banging on about British pride being the reason why they're voting leave need to realise that a leave win could break up Britain as we know it. I think it's been fairly well reported that a Scottish independence vote will take place and of course, those that voted to stay last time may change their mind as they would rather be in the EU than the UK.

 

Those on the side of leave don't have ownership of national pride. Those that will be voting remain are still patriotic, they're just voting on what they think is better for this country.

 

I'm also amazed that there are leave supporters that are adamant that everything Boris etc has told them about what the UK will become is gospel, yet of a remain campaigner mentions that this referendum, particularly if it's close, will make the EU sit up resulting in changes to policy as absolute bullshit. The same goes for experts. Those on the leave side are telling the truth but those on remain are not, you either value an expert's opinion or you don't. Dismissing someone's view because they don't agree with your own is unbelievable.

 

As I said before, if you're truly undecided and are feeling the pressure, you should vote remain as you know what you're getting already. Everyone keeps saying 'it doesn't matter which side you pick, just remember to vote' is nonsense and you should abstain rather than making an ill-informed decision. 

[bovril]

Am I the only one still undecided how to vote?

 

I'll give you fifty quid if you vote remain.