The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Buce]

I understand you have fears about it and there are obvious reasons for it but it can be reversed. This I feel cannot. I hope you vote, whichever way you choose.

Oh, I always vote - too many good people died to preserve that right, for me not to.

[Foxxed]

EU law expert responds as “industrial dishonesty” video goes viral

– a significant majority of the foreign nationals living in the UK (2/3 at the last national census), and over half the net immigration each year, come from outside the EU.  That is almost entirely within our own domestic competence and power – we seem to be good at immigration, without needing any help from the EU.

...

https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/20/eu-law-expert-responds-industrial-dishonesty-video-goes-viral/

 

 

This is one of the points that makes brexit looks like a mixture of misinformed and willfully ignorant.

 

Sure, be angry at immigration if you must. But aimlessly pointing at someone in the European Commission about immigration from outside of the EU is fairly crazy.

 

Of course, as a block, the EU could be used as a policy vehicle, but that obviously is thrown out the window on brexit.

[Countryfox]

 You can drive ten minutes outside of any typical UK City 

 

10 minutes wouldn't get you through the first set of lights.

[Strokes]

This is one of the points that makes brexit looks like a mixture of misinformed and willfully ignorant.

 

Sure, be angry at immigration if you must. But aimlessly pointing at someone in the European Commission about immigration from outside of the EU is fairly crazy.

 

Of course, as a block, the EU could be used as a policy vehicle, but that obviously is thrown out the window on brexit.

It's ignorant to think that's the argument.

[lgfualol]

Hope all the old people don't vote for us to leave tomorrow

[Buce]

Vote with Cameron and Osbourne then.

And Jeremy Hunt.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

I'll be pinching my nose whichever way I vote.

[Dodgy Bob]

There's no evidence anything will happen, it's the future. It's as widely anticipated as the economic slowdown. Excessive migration causes wage suppression.

It was a stab in the dark

I've not seen any credible report saying they anticipate an increase in the wages of skilled trades if we leave.

Immigration has suppressed low skilled and unskilled wages, I'm not sure the same can be said about skilled trades. The fact that we are now in the EU, with an economy only really stumbling along rather than growing substantially, and yet there are already skills shortages suggests to me that those wages are not being suppressed. There is a lack, not an abundance of those people, even while in the EU.

[Foxxed]

...

What power do you have?

Where did you get it?

In whose interests do you exercise it?

To whom are you accountable?

And how can we get rid of you?

Anyone who cannot answer the last of those questions does not live in a democratic system."

 

I'll bite.

 

What power do you have? The power to form legislation signed by heads of state in treaty negotiations, and the power to fine countries who don't abide by what they signed.

Where did you get it? We got it from countries deciding to pool economic markets to create a greater economic leverage, and by people voting for the head of their countries and MEPs.

In whose interesting do you exercise it? In the interesting of the heads of state who signed the treaties. And by association the people who voted for him/her.

To whom are you accountable? To the people who voted for the MEPs, to the nation states who chose the Commission and Council.

And how can we get rid of you? You chose what MEP to vote for. And you chose to be in the system at all by voting for a national party who either want, or don't want, to pool economic markets to create a larger economic vehicle, or perhaps by voting in a referendum.

[Strokes]

I've not seen any credible report saying they anticipate an increase in the wages of skilled trades if we leave.

Immigration has suppressed low skilled and unskilled wages, I'm not sure the same can be said about skilled trades. The fact that we are now in the EU, with an economy only really stumbling along rather than growing substantially, and yet there are already skills shortages suggests to me that those wages are not being suppressed. There is a lack, not an abundance of those people, even while in the EU.

So are all these polish, electricians and plumbers or forklift drivers. Make your mind up.

[Foxxed]

 

MY GOD. WHY DIDN'T YOU POST THIS EARLIER. YOU'VE CHANGED MY MIND!

 

[Webbo]

Heroic effort from Moose, posting on his computer and phone at the same time to try and look like 2 different people. Top trolling.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Why aren't the employers offering them, take a guess. Plenty of mature low skilled people would love to be offered the chance but alas, we take the easy cheap option. It's a betrayal and I see it at the very place I work, why bother, there is no incentive to give the untrained a chance. You are a caring intelligent person Barry, I don't understand why you can't see how this keeps the thumb pressed down on the head of the poor. A vote for remain, is a vote for business. Not for the people who are oppressed by it. If you have moose on your side, you can be absolutely certain the object of it is not for the oppressed minority.

Under 19 places are funded by the government, making it less of a risk for an employer.

Apprenticship's are run through collages, who charge around £5,000 I think it is for a similar non-Apprenticship course (i.e. Same level NVQ but without the work experience). Add into that, the employer has to pay a half rate (£3.30 an hour) that's a lot of outlay for someone who could do the course and then take the skills elsewhere - plus someone of working experience is unlikely to find that pay rate attractive.

That's not to say employers don't take on apprentices of older ages - it's just not as common. What employers will do however when it's in their interests is put employees onto directly related training courses and NVQ's (especially when some government funding comes around). So for example, I've done a literacy and customer service skills NVQ since leaving schooling through my employers.

[Webbo]

Under 19 places are funded by the government, making it less of a risk for an employer.

Apprenticship's are run through collages, who charge around £5,000 I think it is for a similar non-Apprenticship course (i.e. Same level NVQ but without the work experience). Add into that, the employer has to pay a half rate (£3.30 an hour) that's a lot of outlay for someone who could do the course and then take the skills elsewhere - plus someone of working experience is unlikely to find that pay rate attractive.

That's not to say employers don't take on apprentices of older ages - it's just not as common. What employers will do however when it's in their interests is put employees onto directly related training courses and NVQ's (especially when some government funding comes around). So for example, I've done a literacy and customer service skills NVQ since leaving schooling through my employers.

£5000? It was around £2-300 a year in my day.

[Kinowe Soorie]

I've not seen any credible report saying they anticipate an increase in the wages of skilled trades if we leave.

Immigration has suppressed low skilled and unskilled wages, I'm not sure the same can be said about skilled trades. The fact that we are now in the EU, with an economy only really stumbling along rather than growing substantially, and yet there are already skills shortages suggests to me that those wages are not being suppressed. There is a lack, not an abundance of those people, even while in the EU.

I've been undercut half price on a job before by Polish workers. How can I compete with them, when they haven't got the same overheads as me? 6/8 men sharing a rented house down Tudor Road. That alone makes me want out!

[Kinowe Soorie]

Tudor Road also. Maybe some of the undecided voters should have a wonder down there and see if that sways your vote.

[apple987]

Leave currently ahead on lily allens poll 22,000 votes

[Dodgy Bob]

So are all these polish, electricians and plumbers or forklift drivers. Make your mind up.

I haven't made any claims about that. I'm sure there are polish electricians, plumbers and fork lift truck drivers.

If you think being in the EU drives down wages for electricians and plumbers then provide some evidence. Shouldn't be hard.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

£5000? It was around £2-300 a year in my day.

https://www.traininginelectrical.co.uk/course/domestic-electrical-courses/city-and-guilds-2357-nvq-level-3-in-electrical-installation-buildings-and-structures

Well here an example of a level 3 Electrician's NVQ - 3 month course, £1,000.

The 12 month courses I was looking at in other fields were quoted at £5,000 - maybe I'd have got it for 4K if I paid in cash?

[Webbo]

https://www.traininginelectrical.co.uk/course/domestic-electrical-courses/city-and-guilds-2357-nvq-level-3-in-electrical-installation-buildings-and-structures

Well here an example of a level 3 Electrician's NVQ - 3 month course, £1,000.

The 12 month courses I was looking at in other fields were quoted at £5,000 - maybe I'd have got it for 4K if I paid in cash?

You can't learn a trade in 3 months, hang on to your money.

[Dodgy Bob]

I've been undercut half price on a job before by Polish workers. How can I compete with them, when they haven't got the same overheads as me? 6/8 men sharing a rented house down Tudor Road. That alone makes me want out!

Undercutting happens all the time. Some people price jobs at a loss just to secure a pipeline of work. That's day to day business. What we're talking about are general, observable trends. And I don't think anybody will be able to provide any evidence that wages for skilled trades have been pushed down at all.

[Strokes]

Under 19 places are funded by the government, making it less of a risk for an employer.

Apprenticship's are run through collages, who charge around £5,000 I think it is for a similar non-Apprenticship course (i.e. Same level NVQ but without the work experience). Add into that, the employer has to pay a half rate (£3.30 an hour) that's a lot of outlay for someone who could do the course and then take the skills elsewhere - plus someone of working experience is unlikely to find that pay rate attractive.

That's not to say employers don't take on apprentices of older ages - it's just not as common. What employers will do however when it's in their interests is put employees onto directly related training courses and NVQ's (especially when some government funding comes around). So for example, I've done a literacy and customer service skills NVQ since leaving schooling through my employers.

Obviously it's a risk, that's why they don't take it and that's why we employ from Europe. It does nothing to help society though.

[Wymsey]

Rarely see anyone over 21 doing an Apprenticeship.

[Strokes]

I haven't made any claims about that. I'm sure there are polish electricians, plumbers and fork lift truck drivers.

If you think being in the EU drives down wages for electricians and plumbers then provide some evidence. Shouldn't be hard.

Being an electrician I can only speak from experience and knowing that we are still being paid the same as we were in 2007 and seeing plenty more collegues from Europe. Sure it's reading between the lines but when one colleague leaves, it's a fact to say they are replaced by and large by someone from Eastern Europe. Now I'm not degrading these people, some are reasonably close friends but they aren't helping our wage rise, they are keeping it down.

[Strokes]

Rarely see anyone over 21 doing an Apprenticeship.

You won't, why would you. Businesses won't train someone they can get for free no risk an the government won't support anyone older. It's the human scrapheap.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Obviously it's a risk, that's why they don't take it and that's why we employ from Europe. It does nothing to help society though.

Well again, a company is only going to go and actively look for employment abroad if it has many vacancies to fill - you're not going to invest money to go out to somewhere like Poland to advertise 5 low skilled vacancies - that makes no sense does it?

Advertising abroad would only happen if you had multiple vacancies you needed to fill and you've struggled locally for a period of 3/6 months. I know that locally (in Bristol) First Bus had huge problems in getting bus drivers so that's when they went to Poland - and these were above minimum wage jobs too.

So i imagine a lot of the employment from Europe (at least initially) will be from people coming over here and taking a chance on getting a job - now if they manage to do that, in some respects fair play to them. They're making things happen for themselves and their families. That is a spirit this country used to have in spades but has disappeared into a culture of people expecting something to be provided for them.

Now there may be a more recent problem with agencies going abroad and getting a load of immigrants on their books to fill positions and with over occupancy in some rental accommodation - but this is something that could and should be tackled at our own government level already.