GaelicFox Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 54 minutes ago, foxoffderby said: Masood Aka Adrian Elms makes you wonder when he was radicalised ? Perhaps in prison. Our prisons are too soft all this stuff about rehab and prevention does not work. We are too soft on criminals lock them up and make them do hard labour. In saudia Arabia !!! The birth place of virtually all Islamic radicalisation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 7 hours ago, Babylon said: The thread has already been through this and yes there is a credible argument for not giving them the exposure they crave. 1 hour ago, Finnegan said: More or less. So say these experts (no, not Charlie Brooker, the man after him.) I get the argument about expsoure etc, but I fail to see how simply naming someone would do that. Going overboard on backgrounder coverage of him? Well yes, that's when responsible journalism needs to step up. It's a shame it doesn't always happen. It's unworkable anyway. There are presumably going to be inquests and, possibly, court cases related to this attack. His name would become public knowledge then in any case. We'd live in a very dodgy society, the kind terrorists want us to live in, if we changed the principles of open democracy purely to stop copycats from wanting to commit this kind of attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 10 hours ago, GaelicFox said: British born terrorists french born terrorists European immigration controls won't stop this ! Neither will Brexit The war on terror is like the war on drugs POINTLESS and without any evidence based success these wars will get even more pointless we need to reach out to our minority communities and we need to understand people better and help people make better choices ! We also need to move on quickly from out disasterous foreign policy ! Change is needed , and quickly We need to change our thinking. To stop compromising or accommodating, To stop inviting trouble. To stop allowing potential enemies to put themselves in positions of power and control. to deal with known enemies before they commit their crimes, to make sure our laws enable us to quickly take whatever action is needed to ensure all threats to our safety are banished from our land or otherwise dealt with effectively along with anyone shown to be in league with them, As it is, countless comments by people who should be leading us far more honestly and effectively, show they don't have the will or mandate to genuinely tackle the problems and instead continue trying to bullshit the public. There was a Birmingham politician on this morning trying to negate the number of Birmingham terrorists compared to the total population of her community, despite the number being far from insignificant. It's all part of the BBC drive to convince us that existing attitudes are really working or workable when there's no outward or lasting sign of it at all, quite the contrary, because our own grip on our own land is being weakened by the day. The small numbers she mentioned are not the number of terrorists, just the number of convicted terrorists. Her words totally ignored those associates and others who have not been caught, indentified or arrested and are working effectively in the background in all sorts of areas and with all sorts of influence. In other words they were the words of a person in denial or a person who prefers not see or reveal the truth . The talk is of "engaging" with potential enemy groups rather than what we should be doing which is denying them their welcome, sending them back to where they historically came from and ending their influence completely. Then and only then can we, through much more stringent and sensible rules, develop the multicultural society that will fit in with and compliment our own and which,. really, shouldn't be hard to bring about given that so many communities represent virtually no general threat to others either here in the UK or elsewhere. But change can only start with way better leadership and much wiser and more effective laws. Our leaders need to start by putting put OUR people, values and country first and to stop pretending that those whose very existence is centred on negating all we stand for can somehow be converted or educated into a different way of thinking. They cant, won't and there's no need or point in trying to persuade the gullible British public that there is. Fifty people's lives were directly affected and many others indirectly affected by the latest attrocity that, even now, the appeasers seek to minimise. And to my mind these ostrich-like apologists are as much part of the problem as anyone else. Trouble is - and amazingly even accepting the number of incomer-rooted votes - the Referendum vote for greater border control among other things was only a million or so more than the vote for the status quo to continue and that, more than anything, reflects the level of progress and influence our enemies and manipulators have made over what is just a few years. And the awful or progressively corrosive consequences are there to be seen on a daily basis for all that the authorities seek to pretend otherwise in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 11 hours ago, Wymeswold fox said: A fourth person (75-year-old) is now reported to have died. RIP to all. Quite out of the blue really. May have been mentioned but these types of attacks in particular are ones that are more difficult to erase. It could happen on any street in the UK but London is no exception (now obviously, unfortunately). Not sure how this type of incident can be stopped, can only imagine only that all vehicles should be checked for guns, knives etc - but that would affect traffic movement in an already bustling-with-traffic, popular tourist area. So-called Islamic State have, no surprise, claimed responsibility, but personally not entirely convinced without more hard evidence it is Islamic (or faith)-related, and if so if he did it by deciding himself or whether a member of IS directed him. Something, of course, investigators will pursue. There will be other deaths I feel certain. Sometimes it's the manner of attack. The wounds are fatal but slowly so. The increase in knife crime has been recognised since we started voluntarily turning our country over to other cultures but whlle we know about it, we don't or can't do much about it due to concerns about human rights. Conduct a random search in any inner city market of people between say 15 and 35 year olds and the number of knives found would be shocking. Yet even a small knife with, say, a four inch blade can inflict fatal wounds and the enemies in our community know exactly how, which, of course begs the question of who's teaching them and why. Of course those in authority are either never asked those questions or refuse to deal with them if they are. Virtually all press conferences today are sanitised and designed only to fulfill obligations. Sometimes there's good reason for that but there's the politics of it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 7 minutes ago, Thracian said: We need to change our thinking. To stop compromising or accommodating, To stop inviting trouble. To stop allowing potential enemies to put themselves in positions of power and control. to deal with known enemies before they commit their crimes, to make sure our laws enable us to quickly take whatever action is needed to ensure all threats to our safety are banished from our land or otherwise dealt with effectively along with anyone shown to be in league with them, As it is, countless comments by people who should be leading us far more honestly and effectively, show they don't have the will or mandate to genuinely tackle the problems and instead continue trying to bullshit the public. There was a Birmingham politician on this morning trying to negate the number of Birmingham terrorists compared to the total population of her community, despite the number being far from insignificant. It's all part of the BBC drive to convince us that existing attitudes are really working or workable when there's no outward or lasting sign of it at all, quite the contrary, because our own grip on our own land is being weakened by the day. The small numbers she mentioned are not the number of terrorists, just the number of convicted terrorists. Her words totally ignored those associates and others who have not been caught, indentified or arrested and are working effectively in the background in all sorts of areas and with all sorts of influence. In other words they were the words of a person in denial or a person who prefers not see or reveal the truth . The talk is of "engaging" with potential enemy groups rather than what we should be doing which is denying them their welcome, sending them back to where they historically came from and ending their influence completely. Then and only then can we, through much more stringent and sensible rules, develop the multicultural society that will fit in with and compliment our own and which,. really, shouldn't be hard to bring about given that so many communities represent virtually no general threat to others either here in the UK or elsewhere. But change can only start with way better leadership and much wiser and more effective laws. Our leaders need to start by putting put OUR people, values and country first and to stop pretending that those whose very existence is centred on negating all we stand for can somehow be converted or educated into a different way of thinking. They cant, won't and there's no need or point in trying to persuade the gullible British public that there is. Fifty people's lives were directly affected and many others indirectly affected by the latest attrocity that, even now, the appeasers seek to minimise. And to my mind these ostrich-like apologists are as much part of the problem as anyone else. Trouble is - and amazingly even accepting the number of incomer-rooted votes - the Referendum vote for greater border control among other things was only a million or so more than the vote for the status quo to continue and that, more than anything, reflects the level of progress and influence our enemies and manipulators have made over what is just a few years. And the awful or progressively corrosive consequences are there to be seen on a daily basis for all that the authorities seek to pretend otherwise in public. Seriously, let us all know exactly who 'OUR people' are please so we can send back all the rest to 'where they historically came from.' Can we then send you back to where you 'historically came from' as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxoffderby Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 1 hour ago, GaelicFox said: In saudia Arabia !!! The birth place of virtually all Islamic radicalisation People don't just decide to go to Saudi for a jolly. This guy was a criminal with many offences. So it is entirely possible he fell in with radicals in jail and than finished off his conversion in Saudi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 12 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: Seriously, let us all know exactly who 'OUR people' are please so we can send back all the rest to 'where they historically came from.' Can we then send you back to where you 'historically came from' as well? How the hell can MattP be banned, while that Nazi is still allowed to spout his vile rhetoric? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 12 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: Seriously, let us all know exactly who 'OUR people' are please so we can send back all the rest to 'where they historically came from.' Can we then send you back to where you 'historically came from' as well? We might need time travel for that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 31 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: I get the argument about expsoure etc, but I fail to see how simply naming someone would do that. Going overboard on backgrounder coverage of him? Well yes, that's when responsible journalism needs to step up. It's a shame it doesn't always happen. It's unworkable anyway. There are presumably going to be inquests and, possibly, court cases related to this attack. His name would become public knowledge then in any case. We'd live in a very dodgy society, the kind terrorists want us to live in, if we changed the principles of open democracy purely to stop copycats from wanting to commit this kind of attack. In the past I've referred to terrorists feeding off publicity so in many ways I'd agree with Simon Jenkins that we should report issues sparingly. But there's a danger to it too. That problems will be clouded and the resulting issues kept hidden. It's happens anyway because it is increasingly difficult to discuss any issue opening and that reflects further progress for those who despise our society and way of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m4DD0gg Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 15 hours ago, bovril said: Shame he died. Probably thought he was a martyr. Would've preferred him to rot in a confined cell for the rest of his life. this is the uk, he would have been out in under 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 34 minutes ago, Thracian said: There will be other deaths I feel certain. Sometimes it's the manner of attack. The wounds are fatal but slowly so. The increase in knife crime has been recognised since we started voluntarily turning our country over to other cultures but whlle we know about it, we don't or can't do much about it due to concerns about human rights. Conduct a random search in any inner city market of people between say 15 and 35 year olds and the number of knives found would be shocking. Yet even a small knife with, say, a four inch blade can inflict fatal wounds and the enemies in our community know exactly how, which, of course begs the question of who's teaching them and why. Of course those in authority are either never asked those questions or refuse to deal with them if they are. Virtually all press conferences today are sanitised and designed only to fulfill obligations. Sometimes there's good reason for that but there's the politics of it as well. Are you suggesting that us Brits are a perfectly peaceful friendly people and only foreigners are capable of harm? That is absolutely insane. British Empire ring any bells? The crusades? Football hooligans? We do a good enough job of making our own global reputation for violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 Just now, Carl the Llama said: Are you suggesting that us Brits are a perfectly peaceful friendly people and only foreigners are capable of harm? That is absolutely insane. British Empire ring any bells? The crusades? Football hooligans? We do a good enough job of making our own global reputation for violence. Quite how you got from one to the other I've no idea. I've never defended aggressor violence. And you've been on here long enough to know how categorically I condemned Blair's excusion into Iraq. Dealing with our own violence is our problem regardless, Importing some more is quite another and totally unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwell Pablo Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 Don't get the argument about deporting or sending back? Our People??? Bloke was born in Kent. As much birth right to be here as anyone else born here. If getting rid of potential criminals was easy as telling them they aint welcome anymore and to kick them out I'm quite sure most countries would be at it, I'm pretty sure there are international laws against that though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 3 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said: Don't get the argument about deporting or sending back? Bloke was born in Kent. As much birth right to be here as anyone else born here. Yeah all quite weird. British guy kills 4 and injures countless others of all nationalities, including foreign workers and tourists, and it's an 'immigration problem' according to various far-right politicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwell Pablo Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 1 minute ago, bovril said: Yeah all quite weird. British guy kills 4 and injures countless others of all nationalities, including foreign workers and tourists, and it's an 'immigration problem' according to various far-right politicians. Very bizzare, I mean normally Thracian manages to either stay within or at least reside in the grey area of the boundaries of racism but if we are suggesting those that are born here that are white get to stay regardless of whether they are a potential criminal or not and those that are asian should get sent "back" () to Pakistan/India/Bangladesh etc I'm pretty sure that's the boundary very much crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 35 minutes ago, Buce said: How the hell can MattP be banned, while that Nazi is still allowed to spout his vile rhetoric? How conveniently you ignore this sincerely written sentence. But then that's you all over. See what you want to see. "Then and only then can we, through much more stringent and sensible rules, develop the multicultural society that will fit in with and compliment our own and which,. really, shouldn't be hard to bring about given that so many communities represent virtually no general threat to others either here in the UK or elsewhere." I'm on record here as never wanting us to venture into the Middle East to kill a single Iraqi. I have no problem with people of other cultures as a few on here might testify and many other friends too. To call me a nazi is about as insulting as it is wholly unjustified...for personal and ideological reasons. "Our" people as mentioned are the British people who've been here for generations and who seem to be increasingly ignored and disrespected as our nation evolves. Other more recent incomers from various communities and backgrounds are guests here as far as I see it - and more than welcome to British citizenship if they show themselves willing and able to live harmoniously among us and to be a credit to our community. But many are not and the evidence is there in every newspaper and on every television screen every day. We've always had wrongdoers in the UK but I've never seen the reason to accommodate outsiders who wish us harm or harm to others. And by that I don't mean just terrorists but the countless numbers who've exploited vulnerable young people in places like Rotherham and so many places beyond. Very few of these were "our" people but what would you say about them. Do you somehow believe they belong here and represent our culture and everything we want our country and its communities to represent? Speak up for them by all means - I can't wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 The normal reaction after something like this is over-reaction. Remember the IRA bombings? Send all Irish back. Search all Irish clubs. Ban St Patrick's Day. They are taking over. Uganda immigrants? There are too any we can't take the no room. West Indians 50-60's No dogs or blacks. Could go further back. People need to step back and put think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 11 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said: Don't get the argument about deporting or sending back? Our People??? Bloke was born in Kent. As much birth right to be here as anyone else born here. If getting rid of potential criminals was easy as telling them they aint welcome anymore and to kick them out I'm quite sure most countries would be at it, I'm pretty sure there are international laws against that though! The fact that we might give people British citizenship doesn't make it right. Nor does it make them British to my mind. Ask many people from various backgrounds which country they would choose to represent if given the chance and it wouldn't be England or the UK but the land of their fathers and that makes my point perfectly. They don't identify with this country and culture but with their historical home first and foremost. They should have a transitionary status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 27 minutes ago, Thracian said: Quite how you got from one to the other I've no idea. I've never defended aggressor violence. And you've been on here long enough to know how categorically I condemned Blair's excusion into Iraq. Dealing with our own violence is our problem regardless, Importing some more is quite another and totally unnecessary. Do you have proof that violent crime has significantly increased in proportion to our immigrant population? Cab we at least get you to acknowledge that the guy in question is British and maybe going off on one about violent foreigners is a tangent to the discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwell Pablo Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 3 minutes ago, Thracian said: How conveniently you ignore this sincerely written sentence. But then that's you all over. See what you want to see. "Then and only then can we, through much more stringent and sensible rules, develop the multicultural society that will fit in with and compliment our own and which,. really, shouldn't be hard to bring about given that so many communities represent virtually no general threat to others either here in the UK or elsewhere." I'm on record here as never wanting us to venture into the Middle East to kill a single Iraqi. I have no problem with people of other cultures as a few on here might testify and many other friends too. To call me a nazi is about as insulting as it is wholly unjustified...for personal and ideological reasons. "Our" people as mentioned are the British people who've been here for generations and who seem to be increasingly ignored and disrespected as our nation evolves. Other more recent incomers from various communities and backgrounds are guests here as far as I see it - and more than welcome to British citizenship if they show themselves willing and able to live harmoniously among us and to be a credit to our community. But many are not and the evidence is there in every newspaper and on every television screen every day. We've always had wrongdoers in the UK but I've never seen the reason to accommodate outsiders who wish us harm or harm to others. And by that I don't mean just terrorists but the countless numbers who've exploited vulnerable young people in places like Rotherham and so many places beyond. Very few of these were "our" people but what would you say about them. Do you somehow believe they belong here and represent our culture and everything we want our country and its communities to represent? Speak up for them by all means - I can't wait. You absloutley 100% cannont use that argument when we are talking about someone who was born here. He is British, as British as you, as British as me, he's no outsider. Again, pedophilia is not exclusive to the Asian community, plenty of white born nonse's knocking around who's familys have been here for "generations" Are there a set number of "generations" you have to be here before you become British btw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwell Pablo Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 Just now, Thracian said: The fact that we might give people British citizenship doesn't make it right. Nor does it make them British to my mind. Ask many people from various backgrounds which country they would choose to represent if given the chance and it wouldn't be England or the UK but the land of their fathers and that makes my point perfectly. They don't identify with this country and culture but with their historical home first and foremost. They should have a transitionary status. You really don't get it. We have to give it him, it's his birth right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 4 minutes ago, Rincewind said: The normal reaction after something like this is over-reaction. Remember the IRA bombings? Send all Irish back. Search all Irish clubs. Ban St Patrick's Day. They are taking over. Uganda immigrants? There are too any we can't take the no room. West Indians 50-60's No dogs or blacks. Could go further back. People need to step back and put think. Comparing the situation with Ugandan Asians and West Indians with the situation we have today is like comparing summer with winter. I can't remember a single act of Ugandan or West Indian terrorism on our soil but will stand corrected if there was one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 3 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said: You really don't get it. We have to give it him, it's his birth right! No - I don't get the value of any law that offers benefits but fails to provide safeguards where it can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie1999 Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 1 hour ago, Swan Lesta said: Seriously, let us all know exactly who 'OUR people' are please so we can send back all the rest to 'where they historically came from.' Can we then send you back to where you 'historically came from' as well? Our people are people that live and subscribe to the british way of life, nothing to do with colour and race, which i suspect you're implying, and our way of life is that we have morals and respect for others and should expect the same in return, not murdering people because they don't believe in what someone else believes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 24 March 2017 Share Posted 24 March 2017 Saw an article yesterday where a osque collected £3000 in an hour for the victis. It wasn't in the Mail. Did UKIP and Britain First donate anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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