Shots Fired Outside House of Commons

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Benguin said:

What do you mean same answer to both? At what point in my post did I discuss human rights?

 

Why is it so important? The United Kingdom is exceedingly tolerant of Islam. Leicester has almost as many mosques as it does churches, Qurans are equally as available as Bibles, schools teach Islam in as much detail as Christianity without bias. England is, although you'd probably have to say 'was' now, a  Christian country. If you take an Islamic country, it is the complete opposite. In many Islamic countries, possessing a bible is illegal, being free from religion is illegal, teaching of religion is for the most part only Islamic. Why would a progressive see British people showing signs of intolerance towards Islam as a priority after they have suffered a terrorist attack, rather than Muslims showing intolerance towards non-Muslims given that the latter is a much bigger problem?  Sure you can see both need to be resolved intolerance in general needs to be addressed BUT I don't see all these progressives condemning the intolerance of Muslims in the middle east anywhere near as much as Brits. It's just crazy logic to me. It's the same with feminists who spout words like "you're an Islamophobe!"  Are you mad, have you seen the inequality women face in a large amount of Islamic nations.

Sorry, the first sentence was meant to be the answer to both posts. The second paragraph was meant to explain what it meant to both posts in turn. Apologies for my lack of seemly clarity.

 

It's important because how we treat each of our citizens, no matter their beliefs, separates us from ugly theocracies like that. When events like this happen, it's really easy to see the 'other' who look like they've come from those countries (even if they were in fact born here) as sharing the awful beliefs of those who set law in those Middle Eastern States. It would be so easy to slide down that slippery slope, especially when there are those on all sides that want it to happen for their own reasons.

 

Condemning the conditions in most of those ME countries goes without saying - theocracy is a terrible form of government, and we should criticise and apply what pressure we can to help change that. But there is only a limited amount we can do about that - such change has to come from within their own countries, if it can. Pretty much every time there has been more than the most indirect intervention, it has resulted in nothing but a lot of death and misery.

 

What we can do - what we should do - is to make sure, while we wait for those countries to emerge from their theocratic dark age, that we don't choose to join them on a similar ideological (not belief) level.

[Thracian]

34 minutes ago, Benguin said:

What do you mean same answer to both? At what point in my post did I discuss human rights?

 

Why is it so important? The United Kingdom is exceedingly tolerant of Islam. Leicester has almost as many mosques as it does churches, Qurans are equally as available as Bibles, schools teach Islam in as much detail as Christianity without bias. England is, although you'd probably have to say 'was' now, a  Christian country. If you take an Islamic country, it is the complete opposite. In many Islamic countries, possessing a bible is illegal, being free from religion is illegal, teaching of religion is for the most part only Islamic. Why would a progressive see British people showing signs of intolerance towards Islam as a priority after they have suffered a terrorist attack, rather than Muslims showing intolerance towards non-Muslims given that the latter is a much bigger problem?  Sure you can see both need to be resolved intolerance in general needs to be addressed BUT I don't see all these progressives condemning the intolerance of Muslims in the middle east anywhere near as much as Brits. It's just crazy logic to me. It's the same with feminists who spout words like "you're an Islamophobe!"  Are you mad, have you seen the inequality women face in a large amount of Islamic nations.

That's because there's a whole lot of hypocrisy involved and supposedly well-meaning people who don't accept the sometimes tragic consequences being caused by their blinkered viewpoints.             

[filthyfox]

7 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

They spend most of their time talking to tourists I guess; H&K MP5 rather detracts from the friendly look. 

I was at horse guards recently and there were armed policemen there; preumably to protect the soldiers with great big swords (and quit right too, but surely the army should be able to provide this close protection with a couple of guardsmen with real weapons). They were asked if they could have their picture taken. They said that they couldn't say yes, on account of the guns they were carrying; but they don't like saying no. Our Police and ceremonial soldiers are tourist attractions in their own right- the best in the world. People come to see them; but because of this, they are also targets for these cowards, the same as they always have been.

[GaelicFox]

8 hours ago, tom27111 said:

Yesterday, you were condoning terrorists. Now you're jumping on the bandwagon  criticising them.

 

You can't have it both ways.

 

Innocent people dying is wrong.

 

I don't need to say anymore.

 

I'm not lowering myself to your level.

 

Blocked.

Your hatred knows no bounds

 

A wise man once said "those that stir hatred are the passive terrorists" , think about that as you walk on your path of life today, my friend please find inner peace and the whole world will seem a better place for you. 

 

to everyone posting and pointing at excuses for the  terror yesterday please remember:

 

1) the actions of a few should never be the fault of the great majority 

 

2) the actions of a few should never be the guilt of a great majority 

 

3) the actions of a few nearly always are condemned by the great majority 

 

 

 

today lets all make the pledge to challenge hatred in its many forms and reach out and give someone different to you a hand shake and smile of friendship .... the world will be a better place for this little act of kindness 

 

Don't let the small few ruin our world ............

 

 

Shake a hand and smile ........

 

 

[Innovindil]

6 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Sorry, the first sentence was meant to be the answer to both posts. The second paragraph was meant to explain what it meant to both posts in turn. Apologies for my lack of seemly clarity.

 

It's important because how we treat each of our citizens, no matter their beliefs, separates us from ugly theocracies like that. When events like this happen, it's really easy to see the 'other' who look like they've come from those countries (even if they were in fact born here) as sharing the awful beliefs of those who set law in those Middle Eastern States. It would be so easy to slide down that slippery slope, especially when there are those on all sides that want it to happen for their own reasons.

 

Condemning the conditions in most of those ME countries goes without saying - theocracy is a terrible form of government, and we should criticise and apply what pressure we can to help change that. But there is only a limited amount we can do about that - such change has to come from within their own countries, if it can. Pretty much every time there has been more than the most indirect intervention, it has resulted in nothing but a lot of death and misery.

 

What we can do - what we should do - is to make sure, while we wait for those countries to emerge from their theocratic dark age, that we don't choose to join them on a similar ideological (not belief) level.

Literally don't understand what you are babbling about. My post wasn't saying round up all muslims, or condemn those who have done nothing, my post was saying that we KNOW that there are bad people in this country, we've seen it, we've seen it being preached on the streets and seen people supporting these extremist donkeys. THESE people should be dealt with. You can  go "herp derp but dere beliefs!!" all you want, but extremism isn't welcome here, you can't let extremists foster because you are afraid that the law abiding Muslims (of which there is a vast majority!) might feel threatened. I dare say they would agree with dealing with the people sullying their religion. 

[Carl the Llama]

Call me desensitised but I struggle to really be all that outraged.  Compare yesterday to any other major terrorism incident recently and you can't help but conclude that we've come out of this event relatively unscathed.  Yes it is of course upsetting that 4 people died because of some idiots' cause but looking at the papers and social media this morning you'd think half of London had been destroyed.  When do we get to the point where terrorist attacks, particularly small-scale ones, are so unremarkable that they only get a brief mention inside the paper and one or two people taking the time to tweet "such a sad thing to happen #soterrible" like whenever tens of civilians are killed by suicide bombers in places like Baghdad?  I'd much rather we were grateful that it wasn't as bad as it could have been and got on with our lives because surely this constant overreaction to any incident in Europe makes these terrorists who see the images splashed all over the news and millions of people tweeting out hyperbole and about a thousand different hashtags think "good, we're famous, we're getting to them".

[Bob Hazels shorts]

Regardless of the wrongs as there is no rights. 

 

Following the news as it unfolded yesterday and throughout it goes without saying about the courage and skill level of those individuals who protect us.

 

Still baffled though with the amount of CCTV we have that a car can travel the length of Westminster Bridge causing noticeable chaos, crash and then the driver run with two knifes to seemingly unaware as unarmed police waiting.

 

Know the area as most do but a quick look on street view makes it more odd.

[MC Prussian]

Video footage of the woman falling into the River Thames (following the fast approach by the car):

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39359874

It's unclear whether she was thrown overboard as a consequence of the collision or had to jump to safety.

 

It's quite far away, still terrifying to watch because you can actually imagine what it must've looked like on the spot.

[The Doctor]

32 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Literally don't understand what you are babbling about. My post wasn't saying round up all muslims, or condemn those who have done nothing, my post was saying that we KNOW that there are bad people in this country, we've seen it, we've seen it being preached on the streets and seen people supporting these extremist donkeys. THESE people should be dealt with. You can  go "herp derp but dere beliefs!!" all you want, but extremism isn't welcome here, you can't let extremists foster because you are afraid that the law abiding Muslims (of which there is a vast majority!) might feel threatened. I dare say they would agree with dealing with the people sullying their religion. 

Seems fairly obvious he's on about the people who feel the need to go "#religionofpeace strikes again " before an attack has even been confirmed; because of course there's huge benefit in immediately blaming a group of people before any facts are known.

[lgfualol]

Terror attacks always bother me about how random they are and how unlucky you would have to be to die in one.  

[Innovindil]

33 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Call me desensitised but I struggle to really be all that outraged.  Compare yesterday to any other major terrorism incident recently and you can't help but conclude that we've come out of this event relatively unscathed.  Yes it is of course upsetting that 4 people died because of some idiots' cause but looking at the papers and social media this morning you'd think half of London had been destroyed.  When do we get to the point where terrorist attacks, particularly small-scale ones, are so unremarkable that they only get a brief mention inside the paper and one or two people taking the time to tweet "such a sad thing to happen #soterrible" like whenever tens of civilians are killed by suicide bombers in places like Baghdad?  I'd much rather we were grateful that it wasn't as bad as it could have been and got on with our lives because surely this constant overreaction to any incident in Europe makes these terrorists who see the images splashed all over the news and millions of people tweeting out hyperbole and about a thousand different hashtags think "good, we're famous, we're getting to them".

So when should we be "outraged" exactly? 

 

10 dead? 100? 1000?

 

Where's the scale?

 

When you start accepting these atrocities as an every day norm then you've pretty much already lost. 

[Carl the Llama]

Just now, Innovindil said:

So when should we be "outraged" exactly? 

 

10 dead? 100? 1000?

 

Where's the scale?

 

When you start accepting these atrocities as an every day norm then you've pretty much already lost. 

I'd argue the opposite. Treat it like any other mundane middle-of-the-newspaper story and see how many wannabe jihadis' eyes light up at the prospect of getting themselves killed for it.  It's the overreaction and free coverage that they covet as much as any other supposed goal behind their actions because it's something the recruiters use very effectively to sell the idea of glory to these idiots.

[Innovindil]

2 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

I'd argue the opposite. Treat it like any other mundane middle-of-the-newspaper story and see how many wannabe jihadis' eyes light up at the prospect of getting themselves killed for it.  It's the overreaction and free coverage that they covet as much as any other supposed goal behind their actions because it's something the recruiters use very effectively to sell the idea of glory to these idiots.

Ah yes, all these jihad propaganda videos would disappear if old nana Betty didn't tweet about these attacks. 

 

Do you think if we swung the other way a bit and started inviting these people to attack us that they would be even more demoralised? After all if we ask for it what glory is in it for them. 

[Carl the Llama]

Just now, Innovindil said:

Ah yes, all these jihad propaganda videos would disappear if old nana Betty didn't tweet about these attacks. 

 

Do you think if we swung the other way a bit and started inviting these people to attack us that they would be even more demoralised? After all if we ask for it what glory is in it for them. 

I mean yeah, if you want to make a couple of straw men based on a rather hyperbolic 'interpretation' (air quotes because I don't believe you seriously think that's what I'm trying to say) of my argument, that's cool man.

 

When you want to be serious again I'm right here, but this isn't the sort of topic to be playing the 'win the argument' game in.

[Innovindil]

2 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

I mean yeah, if you want to make a couple of straw men based on a rather hyperbolic 'interpretation' (air quotes because I don't believe you seriously think that's what I'm trying to say) of my argument, that's cool man.

 

When you want to be serious again I'm right here, but this isn't the sort of topic to be playing the 'win the argument' game in.

I'm dead serious. I think you are onto something with this "lets just ignore it" idea. 

 

I tell you what, next time we're attacked, let's show we really don't care and just not shoot them. Imagine the failure of these jihad propaganda videos if it's just a video of kafirs stood there, arms wide open for a hug, muttering "do I look bovvered" while getting stabbed. 

 

I am certain these extremists would take off their suicide vests so they can get closer to the warmth of our hugs. 

 

 

[Buce]

1 hour ago, Innovindil said:

Literally don't understand what you are babbling about. My post wasn't saying round up all muslims, or condemn those who have done nothing, my post was saying that we KNOW that there are bad people in this country, we've seen it, we've seen it being preached on the streets and seen people supporting these extremist donkeys. THESE people should be dealt with. You can  go "herp derp but dere beliefs!!" all you want, but extremism isn't welcome here, you can't let extremists foster because you are afraid that the law abiding Muslims (of which there is a vast majority!) might feel threatened. I dare say they would agree with dealing with the people sullying their religion. 

 

The brand of extremism shown by one particular regular poster on here doesn't appear to be unwelcome by many of you..

 

I guess it depends which side of the argument the extremism comes from.

[Lionator]

Shifting to the right in these situations is really not the solution, neither is being blinkered and admitting that there aren't issues in our society. There is clearly a problem within the muslim population around violence and radicalisation however it is the overwhelming minority, you wont find many British Muslims who aren't appalled and saddended by these sorts of events and anybody who tells you otherwise is a liar. 

 

Pretty much all social psychology research indicates that by being hostile towards the Muslim population breeds radicalisation as scumbags like Anjem Chouwdry feed off of this resentment to alter vulnerable minds.

 

51 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Video footage of the woman falling into the River Thames (following the fast approach by the car):

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39359874

 

Our press really are the scum of the earth. Nobody needs or wants to see this, it's propaganda. Maybe the certain factions of the press actually enjoy these sorts of events.

[Webbo]

Sitting here waiting to check out of the hotel, not seen all the coverage. In a way i agree with Carl, we've got away lightly and should be grateful but i cant agree with the condemnation  of people  saying its muslim extremists,  its 99% sure that it is, whether its an organised plot or a pair of nutters. Nobody's  saying its all or even a majority of muslims. Ignoring the obvious achieves nothing

[Babylon]

2 hours ago, Innovindil said:

I'm dead serious. I think you are onto something with this "lets just ignore it" idea. 

 

I tell you what, next time we're attacked, let's show we really don't care and just not shoot them. Imagine the failure of these jihad propaganda videos if it's just a video of kafirs stood there, arms wide open for a hug, muttering "do I look bovvered" while getting stabbed. 

 

I am certain these extremists would take off their suicide vests so they can get closer to the warmth of our hugs.

Firstly, you're being an absolute moron.

 

Secondly, forgetting peoples race or religion for one moment, there has long been a school of thought that any killers (whether it's columbine, a serial killer etc) should be denied exposure, as more often than not that is exactly what they are seeking, to be remembered, to make a name for themselves etc.  In this day and age you can't ignore a story, but there are certain things you can hold back to deny them that exposure that will get them that "glory".

 

Lastly, I also think certain events should warrant a certain level of response, or coverage. Unfortunately since the introduction of 24 hour news channels the press have lost any sort of perspective seemingly and go overboard with their reporting. It's vile and the blokes a total c***, of course it should be reported, but as someone said above you'd think half of London was destroyed.

 

How much different is this, compared to say... the story of the bloke who had an argument with a load of Romanians at a car wash in London about three weeks about and decided to run them all down and left 5 people fighting for their lives. Or a drink driver who kills a whole family.  They're all total c****... but if something is labeled terror the coverage is huge.

[Mark_w]

8 hours ago, Benguin said:

schools teach Islam in as much detail as Christianity without bias.

That certainly doesn't correlate with my experience. The reaction to events like this would probably be a lot saner if they did.

[Jon the Hat]

Breathe and step back.  Tragic as the events of yesterday are for the individuals affected, this has not and should not impact the lives of the other 60 Million British citizens, as well as many visitors to our nation. Consequently, while we should remain vigilant, and do our best to counter such acts, we should not go overboard and take away civil liberties hard won, and which underpin our society, to fight something which can and will never win.  Freedom of speech includes utter ***** talking complete bollocks.  This can only be countered by showing what bollocks they speak, not by silencing them.  That has never and will never work.

[Realist Guy In The Room]

One day religion will be exposed for what it is and be rendered obsolete.  When that happens, stuff like this will still happen.

 

People will still kill others randomly for no reason.  Its in the generic makeup of some people and there's nothing anyone can do about that.  

 

Religion has always been a mask people use for bullshit.  Its a reason it aint the cause.  People are the cause because people can be ****ing evil.

 

 

[The Floyd]

2 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

Call me desensitised but I struggle to really be all that outraged.  Compare yesterday to any other major terrorism incident recently and you can't help but conclude that we've come out of this event relatively unscathed.  Yes it is of course upsetting that 4 people died because of some idiots' cause but looking at the papers and social media this morning you'd think half of London had been destroyed.  When do we get to the point where terrorist attacks, particularly small-scale ones, are so unremarkable that they only get a brief mention inside the paper and one or two people taking the time to tweet "such a sad thing to happen #soterrible" like whenever tens of civilians are killed by suicide bombers in places like Baghdad?  I'd much rather we were grateful that it wasn't as bad as it could have been and got on with our lives because surely this constant overreaction to any incident in Europe makes these terrorists who see the images splashed all over the news and millions of people tweeting out hyperbole and about a thousand different hashtags think "good, we're famous, we're getting to them".

Ridiculous to say that because others have it worse off that we shouldn't be bothered. There was a terrorist attack in London, of course it's saddening, regardless of its inevitability. 

 

You can't deny people's right to feel emotional at the death of innocent people just because it was on a 'small-scale'.

[Lionator]

6 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said:

One day religion will be exposed for what it is and be rendered obsolete.  When that happens, stuff like this will still happen.

 

People will still kill others randomly for no reason.  Its in the generic makeup of some people and there's nothing anyone can do about that.  

 

Religion has always been a mask people use for bullshit.  Its a reason it aint the cause.  People are the cause because people can be ****ing evil.

 

 

Religion, in this case Islam, gives a justification for the insane to commit terrifying acts as opposed to just doing it for the sake of it.

[Carl the Llama]

1 minute ago, The Floyd said:

Ridiculous to say that because others have it worse off that we shouldn't be bothered. There was a terrorist attack in London, of course it's saddening, regardless of its inevitability. 

 

You can't deny people's right to feel emotional at the death of innocent people just because it was on a 'small-scale'.

Not at all what I'm trying to say.  See Babs' post for a better explanation of what I was getting at.