ramboacdc Posted 10 May 2017 Author Share Posted 10 May 2017 1 minute ago, TiffToff88 said: That would cause more problems than it would solve. Like you say, with it being on water that just makes the ride more dangerous. I wonder rapids rides like this have some sort of emergency shut off to stop the jets that cause the rapids and high currents. One thing you notice when you go on river rapids rides is the huge amount of cctv cameras on the ride. Surely that means the rides are supposed to be monitored at all times. I haven't found any information on how quickly the ride can be shut down in case of an emergency. That would be a good place to start the investigation. the emergency services were there within minutes i know that much and there will be an emergency shut off. i don't think this will be deemed as anything more than an accident. much like that 11 year old who died at the pleasure beach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol thewall Bamba Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 42 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: What? So a teacher was meant to somehow stand up and physically prevent the children from swapping seats and now they should be held accountable? Sure, lets charge them with manslaughter. Wow - that really is beyond ridiculous. I don't think he was suggesting manslaughter, but if it was your kid and you knew the adult in the boat didn't brief the kids on the specific H&S guidelines that lead to their death, you're going to have some level of blame attached to that individual surely? As an aside, I thought about a career in Health and Safety after Uni but this kind of thing makes me glad I didn't. The stress is unbelievable as ultimately you're responsible for the well being of everyone under your duty of care, not the MD, not the people operating the rides, the buck stops firmly with you, the personal fines and potential jail time aren't worth the massive salaries imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 We do not know the facts but if she stood up and swapped seats it was not Drayton Manors fault as there are clear signs saying stay seated at all times. The girl stood up and broke those rules and the worst possible thing happened. It was an accident simple as that but you can not blame Drayton Manor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkon84 Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 16 hours ago, Trav Le Bleu said: Well, until you die anyway! Blimey Trav, that was some timing. Thing is though, I've been through so much, that the thought that I might die doesn't really fuss me. Obviously I won't take stupid risks etc, I don't want to die, but what will be, will be, whether it's a rollercoaster throwing me off, a plane going down or whatever. Things like that are out of our control so just enjoy ourselves while we can! Terrible news that the girl passed away. Thoughts go out to her friends and family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripeyfox Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 25 minutes ago, Marmite said: We do not know the facts but if she stood up and swapped seats it was not Drayton Manors fault as there are clear signs saying stay seated at all times. The girl stood up and broke those rules and the worst possible thing happened. It was an accident simple as that but you can not blame Drayton Manor It's very early to start deciding who broke rules and who can be blamed. Kids don't always follow "rules", particularly on a school trip to a theme park. Swapping seats on a relatively "calm" ride like the rapids would probably not seem inherantly dangerous to some kids having a laugh on a day out. If there is a risk of people being ejected from the ride, then perhaps they should somehow be secured in, however this could be catastrophic in the event of a capsize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxy boxing Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 terrible news, such a tragedy that is happened on a school trip with teacher supervision. these rides need constant checks and proper supervision and the safety rules need to be followed to the letter. this incident highlights the fact that these rides while fun have an element of danger about them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 People jumping to conclusions about tragic incidents is the best thing about the internet. Might as well sack all our coroners now, they're clearly surplus to requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiffToff88 Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 Just now, Voll Blau said: People jumping to conclusions about tragic incidents is the best thing about the internet. Might as well sack all our coroners now, they're clearly surplus to requirements. I don't think anyone is jumping to conclusions on here. There are several reports claiming that the same things happened in this incident. People have watched the news, read the papers, and then commented on what has been reported by eye witnesses. I agree that just because some newspapers and witnesses say something happened, doesn't necessarily mean it's true, but that's all we have to go on so that's what is being discussed. At what point in a news story (not just this one, but any news story) are the general public supposed to start believing all the reports they hear about? - even though at this stage they're all reporting the same chain of events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 1 hour ago, TiffToff88 said: I don't think anyone is jumping to conclusions on here. There are several reports claiming that the same things happened in this incident. People have watched the news, read the papers, and then commented on what has been reported by eye witnesses. I agree that just because some newspapers and witnesses say something happened, doesn't necessarily mean it's true, but that's all we have to go on so that's what is being discussed. At what point in a news story (not just this one, but any news story) are the general public supposed to start believing all the reports they hear about? - even though at this stage they're all reporting the same chain of events. No, I completely agree. If it's established fact then fine, deal in facts. But people speculating that a possibly non-existent teacher should be charged with manslaughter? Come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 Maybe a general rule for all of us is to let some time pass before we start drawing conclusions, especially as time will help our understanding. Why rush to judgement? At at this point of time shouldn't sadness and understanding be at the forefront of our minds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiffToff88 Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 18 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: No, I completely agree. If it's established fact then fine, deal in facts. But people speculating that a possibly non-existent teacher should be charged with manslaughter? Come on. Who said anything about manslaughter? It seems you're the one speculating on non-existent "facts" I mentioned that i believed there to be a teacher on the boat because that's what one of the parents of one of the girls on the boat said on the news this morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 4 minutes ago, TiffToff88 said: Who said anything about manslaughter? It seems you're the one speculating on non-existent "facts" I mentioned that i believed there to be a teacher on the boat because that's what one of the parents of one of the girls on the boat said on the news this morning. 6 seats, one Teacher. Have you ever looked after 5 excited 11 year olds? Let's cut the blame game until the full facts are out, yeah? The ride will be mostly covered by CCTV so I think they will be in a better position to Judge than us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiffToff88 Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 8 minutes ago, Strokes said: 6 seats, one Teacher. Have you ever looked after 5 excited 11 year olds? Let's cut the blame game until the full facts are out, yeah? The ride will be mostly covered by CCTV so I think they will be in a better position to Judge than us. Every monday evening i look after 20 of them. If one of them was to get injured (or worse) during that time, i would be held responsible because the parents left them in my care. I knew this when i started doing it. Its all part of the job. Why do the teachers even go on these trips if its not to make sure the kids are staying safe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 Just now, TiffToff88 said: Every monday evening i look after 20 of them. If one of them was to get injured (or worse) during that time, i would be held responsible because the parents left them in my care. I knew this when i started doing it. Its all part of the job. Then you will know how difficult it would have been on this ride and perhaps would be a little more forgiving, until knowing the full details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiffToff88 Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 12 minutes ago, Strokes said: Then you will know how difficult it would have been on this ride and perhaps would be a little more forgiving, until knowing the full details. I do know how difficult it is, and i am forgiving. But unlike people have implied on here, i never said the teacher should face manslaughter charges. And i also said that without knowing the full details of the event, we don't know if the teacher did do anything to try to keep the student in her seat. You're also jumping to conclusions without reading the full details of my comments. What it does boil down to is that an 11 year old girl would have the intelligence to know that she shouldn't stand up on a rid like this, even for a second to swap seats with someone. I understand that it might seem insensitive to pin blame on anyone at this stage, but with all the safety procedures the park put in place, and the limited capabilities of a responsible adult in the situation (They obviously cant force a child to sit down) the blame in this tragic incident appears to lie with the unfortunate child herself, based on what we already know about the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramboacdc Posted 10 May 2017 Author Share Posted 10 May 2017 40 minutes ago, TiffToff88 said: Every monday evening i look after 20 of them. If one of them was to get injured (or worse) during that time, i would be held responsible because the parents left them in my care. I knew this when i started doing it. Its all part of the job. Why do the teachers even go on these trips if its not to make sure the kids are staying safe? only so much you can do in this situation however. If i kids stands up and they aint meant to how can you get them down without standing up yourself and endagering yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiffToff88 Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 2 minutes ago, ramboacdc said: only so much you can do in this situation however. If i kids stands up and they aint meant to how can you get them down without standing up yourself and endagering yourself? That's what i'm saying, there's only a limited amount the adult can do in this situation. But it doesn't change the fact that the teacher (and the school in general) had a duty of care to every single one of the students on that trip. Ultimately it's their responsibility to ensure that the children are safe. And i totally understand that there was very little anyone could do to stop the child standing up on the ride. Same thing can be applied to me during my coaching sessions on monday evenings. If a child in my care breaks their leg as a result of a bad tackle from another student, i'm almost certain that the parents of the injured child will blame me. You can teach children to behave in the proper way, whether it's teaching a child to sit down on a ride for their own safety, or teaching a child not to go in hard with a rash tackle that could potentially injure someone. But there's absolutely no way it can be monitored and enforced at all times. Very very difficult situation for everyone involved in this Drayton Manor incident. Wether its the childs parents, the teachers on the trip, the park operators and the incident investigators. It's most likely going to be almost impossible to assign any blame. I've simply been looking into all the possible outcomes and causes of the incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramboacdc Posted 10 May 2017 Author Share Posted 10 May 2017 1 minute ago, TiffToff88 said: That's what i'm saying, there's only a limited amount the adult can do in this situation. But it doesn't change the fact that the teacher (and the school in general) had a duty of care to every single one of the students on that trip. Ultimately it's their responsibility to ensure that the children are safe. And i totally understand that there was very little anyone could do to stop the child standing up on the ride. Same thing can be applied to me during my coaching sessions on monday evenings. If a child in my care breaks their leg as a result of a bad tackle from another student, i'm almost certain that the parents of the injured child will blame me. You can teach children to behave in the proper way, whether it's teaching a child to sit down on a ride for their own safety, or teaching a child not to go in hard with a rash tackle that could potentially injure someone. But there's absolutely no way it can be monitored and enforced at all times. Very very difficult situation for everyone involved in this Drayton Manor incident. Wether its the childs parents, the teachers on the trip, the park operators and the incident investigators. It's most likely going to be almost impossible to assign any blame. I've simply been looking into all the possible outcomes and causes of the incident. its the whole situation really. to put it into your sort of role it would be like if some kid decided to re enact the famous scene from Kes and climb the goal posts. You tell them to get down time and again but one day they go up there, fall off break their neck. Is that your fault because you didn't stop them this 15th time or is it not because they have been told and the larger group of students you were looking after then did snap someone leg whilst you're telling this other kid to get down. it will all come out but i think the coroner will deem this an accidental death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 52 minutes ago, TiffToff88 said: That's what i'm saying, there's only a limited amount the adult can do in this situation. But it doesn't change the fact that the teacher (and the school in general) had a duty of care to every single one of the students on that trip. Ultimately it's their responsibility to ensure that the children are safe. And i totally understand that there was very little anyone could do to stop the child standing up on the ride. Same thing can be applied to me during my coaching sessions on monday evenings. If a child in my care breaks their leg as a result of a bad tackle from another student, i'm almost certain that the parents of the injured child will blame me. You can teach children to behave in the proper way, whether it's teaching a child to sit down on a ride for their own safety, or teaching a child not to go in hard with a rash tackle that could potentially injure someone. But there's absolutely no way it can be monitored and enforced at all times. Very very difficult situation for everyone involved in this Drayton Manor incident. Wether its the childs parents, the teachers on the trip, the park operators and the incident investigators. It's most likely going to be almost impossible to assign any blame. I've simply been looking into all the possible outcomes and causes of the incident. Well actually your words were that 'the teacher should be held accountable' which is what I had and still have a problem with. Accountability for a death - negligence resulting in death.... manslaughter. Thats why you've got posters on your back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 6 hours ago, stripeyfox said: This is a ridiculous comment. The facts aren't even known and even if it turns out that the park is liable they'll still reopen afterwards. Yeah, you're probably right - I was jumping the gun some there. However...I was thinking that DM Park wasn't exactly on the soundest financial footing anyway and being found liable for this would really hurt them further in that regard. And yes, jumping to conclusions isn't the best thing - hence my trying to cover my rear end by using speculative terms regarding possible liability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiffToff88 Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 5 hours ago, TiffToff88 said: Turns out she decided to stand up and swap seats with someone mid-ride. The boat hit a rock designed to change the direction of the boat as she was stood up and she fell in. There are more than enough warnings about staying in your seat during the ride, and short of having a staff member in each boat, it's impossible to enforce. There was also a teacher in the boat with her. If anyone should be held accountable, its the teacher for allowing the student to break a blatant health and safety rule. There's absolutely no way Drayton Manor could or should be at fault for what happened. 17 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: Well actually your words were that 'the teacher should be held accountable' which is what I had and still have a problem with. Accountability for a death - negligence resulting in death.... manslaughter. Thats why you've got posters on your back. I only said that IF blame was to be assigned, my view was that any adult who was in the boat would have more responsibility for the safety and well-being of the student than the park's staff. Afterall, that is the main reason the teachers go along to these school trips, is it not? I didn't mean it to sound like i was saying its all the teachers fault that the student had passed away. In any case, that all seems irrelevant now, as more information is coming to light that suggests that there were only students on the boat anyway. In which case, it's a tragic accident that would only have been avoided if the student followed the clear health and safety measures in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 10 minutes ago, TiffToff88 said: I only said that IF blame was to be assigned, my view was that any adult who was in the boat would have more responsibility for the safety and well-being of the student than the park's staff. Afterall, that is the main reason the teachers go along to these school trips, is it not? I didn't mean it to sound like i was saying its all the teachers fault that the student had passed away. In any case, that all seems irrelevant now, as more information is coming to light that suggests that there were only students on the boat anyway. In which case, it's a tragic accident that would only have been avoided if the student followed the clear health and safety measures in the first place. IF blame was to be assigned it still was going too far to suggest the teacher should be held accountable and its not relevant now and not relevant then even if there were two teachers in the boat it'd still be a tragic accident. The only part of your above post that I find acceptable I've highlighted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trav Le Bleu Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 4 hours ago, Darkon84 said: Blimey Trav, that was some timing. Thing is though, I've been through so much, that the thought that I might die doesn't really fuss me. Obviously I won't take stupid risks etc, I don't want to die, but what will be, will be, whether it's a rollercoaster throwing me off, a plane going down or whatever. Things like that are out of our control so just enjoy ourselves while we can! Terrible news that the girl passed away. Thoughts go out to her friends and family. Awful timing. Was hoping no one noticed. Clearly a terrible tragedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lestajigs Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 No standing at all times while the ride is going, if she stood and fell, absolutely no one to blame!! Certainly not Drayton manor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col city fan Posted 10 May 2017 Share Posted 10 May 2017 The fookin blame game is another indictment on modern society. And this is even before the facts are anywhere near out. I asked the question as soon as the news came out...how on earth did the kid fall out of a ride that, as far as I know, no kid has fallen out of before? There will be a multi-factorial explanation to it I guess, with blame incurred. You cannot risk assess for every bloody thing...... it's impossible. And if we keep trying to do this, the blame culture is going to get even worse. Risk assessments should be robust, yes, but we are human beings..full of unpredictability, individual traits, moods etc which makes it impossible to control everything we do. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if signage doesn't come up. Signage nearly always plays a part in disasters like these. Were the signs clear? Were there any in the first place? Signs are an easy target but I wonder whether they are really always read? There are many photo captions of major road junctions where there are SO many signs that it would be literally impossible to be able to read and follow them all. The roads in these cases are polluted by signs. And what about people who can't read English? Are warning signs displayed in other languages very often? It makes me wonder where health and safety can ever stop? It's relentless really. That's good in many ways, but very hard to enforce, in others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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