Incident at London Bridge

[Dr The Singh]

18 minutes ago, Charl91 said:

 

Are you Katie Hopkins?

I'm Spartacus

[The Floyd]

16 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

After Manchester there was a Muslim surgeon who had just done a 48 shift helping the victims. After a few hours rest he was going back and some idiots shouted from a car 'F..k of Paki go home you terrorist' He was born in this country.

It is this sort of reaction that will enable the recruiters to to find more disallusioned young men.

I have seen calls for the banning of the Burka. To my knowledge no terrorist attack in Britain has been carried out by a person wearing one. The attacks mostly have been carried out by young British born males. I have not checked the stats so happy if proved wrong.

If a person's response to hateful language is to want to kill as many innocent people as possible, then I'd suggest that there is something fundamentally incorrect with that individual or their beliefs prior to them being the target of slurred insults. 

[Charl91]

5 minutes ago, Kitchandro said:

It's too late to do anything about this. Our mistake was letting vastly different cultures live in the same place. They cannot co-exist.

 

People say all this rubbish about 'they will not divide us' but the reason these things are happening is because society is already divided. Whilst faiths like Islam are allowed in a modern, open-minded nation like Britain, it will always breed extremism because their religion is so strict and backward.

 

Terrorism is not the fault of all Muslims, and I don't know what you can expect them to do about it. Muslim people in general are not the problem as individuals, but the Islamic faith is. Nobody who supports gay rights, female rights, childrens rights or general human rights can defend the cultures of Islamic nations like Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar etc. They are completely at odds with our own and when you try to mix the two of course it is going to cause friction. Look around our own city, Muslims have pretty much their own seperate societies here. How is that going to help?

 

Most relgions have potential to cause extremism, they're based on outdated rules that were considered 'morals' back in a day when burning women was popular in case they were witches. But there's no doubt doubt Islam is the most extreme version of this. People are willing to die just to prove a point for Islam. As misguided as most Muslims will rightly say they are, you can't deny that it is the influence for such acts.

 

People need to stop using the racism card by the way. Islam is a religion, not a race. It is also a choice, so it should not be immune from criticism.

 

I agree with you on a lot of this, in all honestly. I dislike all religions on principle, even if I do respect people's right to have them. I think religion is outdated, and I disagree with indoctrination from all religions. But I disagree with you on your last line; there is no doubt that many people are using this as a "free pass" to air their racist views.

 

If you dislike Islam as a concept, then I don't particularly have a problem with that. If you think all Muslims are terrorists and/or terrorist sympathisers? Yeah, that's pretty racist/islamaphobic/whatever-umbrella-term-you-wish-to-use. 

[yorkie1999]

As dr the Singh suggested, this is a war, maybe in its early stages, maybe not but if it continues on the streets of Britain, what's going to happen . What's going to happen after 10 or 20 or 30 killings on our streets. We're all on here criticising this that and the other because at the moment it's not affecting us, our family members haven't been butchered but we can't just carry on and hope it doesn't affect us because eventually it will. 

[Rincewind]

I never said it would be his response. What I mean is there have been calls to burn down Mosques attacks on anyone that is thought to 'look' like a Muslim etc. There are a few impessionable people about. who just need a shove or two in the wrong direction. It is better to pull them back before it happoens.

[Tielemans63]

Before I continue I must confess I'm not an IT expert so if anyone is, please let me know what the score is because I'd be genuinely very interested to know what currently happens.

 

Was just thinking about this whole 'the government need to do something' issue and wondered how much web providers, mobile phone companies and social media providers are really doing to combat this problem? There must be a reasonable amount of electronic communication between members of these cells and it's been mentioned a few times in the aftermath of different attacks how the perps have often researched bomb making etc on the internet. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I realise that the internet is virtually infinite and impossible to police but do these companies employ specific anti-terror teams to at least try and identify foul play? If this doesn't already happen then could the government not insist that such units are employed by these companies? It wouldn't solve everything but would surely be of great assistance and benefit to our security services as there would be an initial safety net and a greater sharing of expertise? If it happens already then maybe this is an area that needs to be taken even more seriously.

 

If this already happens then ignore all of that!

[hejammy]

12 minutes ago, Kitchandro said:

It's too late to do anything about this. Our mistake was letting vastly different cultures live in the same place. They cannot co-exist.

 

People say all this rubbish about 'they will not divide us' but the reason these things are happening is because society is already divided. Whilst faiths like Islam are allowed in a modern, open-minded nation like Britain, it will always breed extremism because their religion is so strict and backward.

 

Terrorism is not the fault of all Muslims, and I don't know what you can expect them to do about it. Muslim people in general are not the problem as individuals, but the Islamic faith is. Nobody who supports gay rights, female rights, childrens rights or general human rights can defend the cultures of Islamic nations like Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar etc. They are completely at odds with our own and when you try to mix the two of course it is going to cause friction. Look around our own city, Muslims have pretty much their own seperate societies here. How is that going to help?

 

Most relgions have potential to cause extremism, they're based on outdated rules that were considered 'morals' back in a day when burning women was popular in case they were witches. But there's no doubt doubt Islam is the most extreme version of this. People are willing to die just to prove a point for Islam. As misguided as most Muslims will rightly say they are, you can't deny that it is the influence for such acts.

 

People need to stop using the racism card by the way. Islam is a religion, not a race. It is also a choice, so it should not be immune from criticism.

I have to completely disagree with this. It's quite the opposite. Individuals are to blame not the religion. If what you were saying was true then most Muslims would be terrorists, and most educated people would agree that this is not the case. As it is a very small percentage of "Muslims" committing these crimes you have to deduce that it's the individuals and not the religion. 

 

Its like saying it's football that causes hooliganism. No,  its individuals who are hooligans and football as a whole does not promote this. 

[m4DD0gg]

The lizard queen says 'enough is enough' seriously Theresa what are you and your moronic government going to do.

[lgfualol]

1 minute ago, m4DD0gg said:

The lizard queen says 'enough is enough' seriously Theresa what are you and your moronic government going to do.

Use it as an excuse to go all China on UK internet. She wont do shit.

[Kitchandro]

 

5 minutes ago, Charl91 said:

 

I agree with you on a lot of this, in all honestly. I dislike all religions on principle, even if I do respect people's right to have them. I think religion is outdated, and I disagree with indoctrination from all religions. But I disagree with you on your last line; there is no doubt that many people are using this as a "free pass" to air their racist views.

 

If you dislike Islam as a concept, then I don't particularly have a problem with that. If you think all Muslims are terrorists and/or terrorist sympathisers? Yeah, that's pretty racist/islamaphobic/whatever-umbrella-term-you-wish-to-use. 

Well Islamaphobia is different to racism. That doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong. It's just a different thing.

 

Do people who have a problem with Muslims also have a problem with people of the same race (I.E. middle east Asian) who follow Sikhism, Buddism, Hinduism? I'd say not necessarily. Yeh sometimes people are just massive racists, and yes plenty do come out of the woodwork after incidents like this. But the racism card is thrown around an awful lot just because people criticise Islam, or even Muslim culture, which is not the same as just hating all Asians.

 

[Charl91]

3 minutes ago, hejammy said:

I have to completely disagree with this. It's quite the opposite. Individuals are to blame not the religion. If what you were saying was true then most Muslims would be terrorists, and most educated people would agree that this is not the case. As it is a very small percentage of "Muslims" committing these crimes you have to deduce that it's the individuals and not the religion. 

 

Its like saying it's football that causes hooliganism. No,  its individuals who are hooligans and football as a whole does not promote this. 

 

I would say it's both. Some forms of Islam (there are many different interpretations and beliefs) are absolutely toxic, there is no doubt about that. And when an unhinged individual is taught that his way into paradise is to kill others, and he truly believes it, then events like this are going to be a logical conclusion of those two things.

 

Most Muslims don't share that outlook though, and this is what a lot of people find difficult to grasp. They have their own little funny beliefs and just get on with their lives. It's similar with Christianity (although Islam is currently more destructive). Some Christians have toxic views, like hatred for homosexuals, whereas others don't give a toss. Most Christians believe in something a little strange, but their views are harmless on the whole.

 

 

 

 

[The Floyd]

16 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

I never said it would be his response. What I mean is there have been calls to burn down Mosques attacks on anyone that is thought to 'look' like a Muslim etc. There are a few impessionable people about. who just need a shove or two in the wrong direction. It is better to pull them back before it happoens.

Not the individual you mentioned, no, but you did offer a vague justification on a wider scale in the form of 'It is this sort of reaction that will enable the recruiters to to find more disallusioned young men'.

 

As a whole, I'd argue that this country is extremely tolerant of other cultures and religion, not least Islam. Trying to shift the argument away from the actual causes of this terrorism and towards anecdotal evidence of isolated racial incidents; such as the 'calls to burn down mosques', is not helpful or productive for anyone. 

[yorkie1999]

So the copper on the tele says that if this had happened anew here else apart from London there is not the capability for a response such as we saw last night. Living outside London I feel really comforted by this.

[Charl91]

2 minutes ago, Kitchandro said:

 

Well Islamaphobia is different to racism. That doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong. It's just a different thing.

 

Do people who have a problem with Muslims also have a problem with people of the same race (I.E. middle east Asian) who follow Sikhism, Buddism, Hinduism? I'd say not necessarily. Yeh sometimes people are just massive racists, and yes plenty do come out of the woodwork after incidents like this. But the racism card is thrown around an awful lot just because people criticise Islam, or even Muslim culture, which is not the same as just hating all Asians.

 

 

You're technically correct (the best kind of correct!), it's Islamaphobia, not racism, but I think we're roughly arguing over semantics here. I'd argue there's a big difference between disliking a religion, and stating that "all muslims are terrorists"; I'm not a fan of religion myself, but its not the same as believing that every Muslim wishes to cause the death of all my close relatives.

[yorkie1999]

5 minutes ago, Charl91 said:

 

I would say it's both. Some forms of Islam (there are many different interpretations and beliefs) are absolutely toxic, there is no doubt about that. And when an unhinged individual is taught that his way into paradise is to kill others, and he truly believes it, then events like this are going to be a logical conclusion of those two things.

 

Most Muslims don't share that outlook though, and this is what a lot of people find difficult to grasp. They have their own little funny beliefs and just get on with their lives. It's similar with Christianity (although Islam is currently more destructive). Some Christians have toxic views, like hatred for homosexuals, whereas others don't give a toss. Most Christians believe in something a little strange, but their views are harmless on the whole.

 

 

 

 

 No, the christians already did their killing a thousand years ago

[Charl91]

3 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

 No, the christians already did their killing a thousand years ago

 

Now it's just buggering little kids?

 

All religions have their outliers, even if some more than others.

[Kitchandro]

9 minutes ago, hejammy said:

I have to completely disagree with this. It's quite the opposite. Individuals are to blame not the religion. If what you were saying was true then most Muslims would be terrorists, and most educated people would agree that this is not the case. As it is a very small percentage of "Muslims" committing these crimes you have to deduce that it's the individuals and not the religion. 

 

Its like saying it's football that causes hooliganism. No,  its individuals who are hooligans and football as a whole does not promote this. 

No. The beliefs of football fans in general are not at odds with British society. That is the difference, other than the fact terrorists blow up children in the name of religion and football hooligans don't do that in the name of football (I will not insult you by suggesting the actions of the two groups are comparable as I'm sure you wouldn't even dream of sugesting that).

 

Some people are stupid and thuggish and need a platform to express that with. But it takes the influence of religion, something that often completely dictates someone's actions in day to day life, to make you want to blow up yourself and a load of innocent people, including children.

 

Either that or they've gone completely doo-lally, but it's not a coincidence that a lot of these people who are doo-lally happen to be religious freaks, especially Muslims. You can't keep covering your ears, closing your eyes and shouting that the two things aren't linked. It's ludicrous and naive. There is clearly a huge correlation between these terrorist attacks and the offenders following Islam.

[Vacamion]

2 hours ago, Russell sprout said:

 

i will say that I don't think all Muslim are terrorists,

but it fact all terrorists are muslim

 

 

I don't think the bloke who killed Jo Cox last year was very Muslim.

 

Think again.

 

 

[hejammy]

2 minutes ago, Kitchandro said:

No. The beliefs of football fans in general are not at odds with British society. That is the difference, other than the fact terrorists blow up children in the name of religion and football hooligans don't do that in the name of football (I will not insult you by suggesting the actions of the two groups are comparable as I'm sure you wouldn't even dream of sugesting that).

 

Some people are stupid and thuggish and need a platform to express that with. But it takes the influence of religion, something that often completely dictates someone's actions in day to day life, to make you want to blow up yourself and a load of innocent people, including children.

 

Either that or they've gone completely doo-lally, but it's not a coincidence that a lot of these people who are doo-lally happen to be religious freaks, especially Muslims. You can't keep covering your ears, closing your eyes and shouting that the two things aren't linked. It's ludicrous and naive. There is clearly a huge correlation between these terrorist attacks and the offenders following Islam.

I never said there wasnt a link between the two. I was simply stating that I disagreed with your statement that it's Islam to blame. Crazy (or doolalay) people need a reason to justify their actions, and they have chosen a twisted version of Islam. So it's still the individuals fault and not Islam itself. 

Ofcourse I would not compare hooliganism and terrorist acts. I was simply comparing them to give you an idea behind why your logic (in my opinion) was flawed. 

[Realist Guy In The Room]

A mosque will burn down and people inside will die.

 

Another attack will result etc etc etc.

 

We're all ****ed.

[LiberalFox]

It's a bit difficult to hold the government to account on this because we don't know in detail so much about the nature of the threat. I hate it when politicians come out with crap like "we are far too tolerant of extremism" and "enough is enough" like Theresa May is doing. Who is "we", I hate extremism in all its forms let alone senseless violent terrorism. What do you mean by enough is enough? Is that an admission that our whole counter terrorism strategy isn't working? Or is it just "tough talk" and actually just trying to appear statesperson like?

 

May wants to more heavily regulate the internet, she wants to make it so that nobody can have privacy. The government can always listen in. That's not something I could support unless she can offer evidence that it is actually possible (doubtful) and that it would actually prevent terrorism. 

 

Personally I think there are solutions but they will not happen overnight. 

 

 

[yorkie1999]

10 minutes ago, Charl91 said:

 

Now it's just buggering little kids?

 

All religions have their outliers, even if some more than others.

Well you don't get many Catholics standing on a bridge in London shouting this is for allah

[Dr The Singh]

15 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

 No, the christians already did their killing a thousand years ago

Most Christian nations are more evolved I. There thinking, and religion doesn't necessarily influence the Constitution, law and order of the nation.  Religion is seen more of a personal thing.  However so called Islamic nations have yet to go through that journey, some say they never will, just like the Hindu nation of India.

[yorkie1999]

2 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

It's a bit difficult to hold the government to account on this because we don't know in detail so much about the nature of the threat. I hate it when politicians come out with crap like "we are far too tolerant of extremism" and "enough is enough" like Theresa May is doing. Who is "we", I hate extremism in all its forms let alone senseless violent terrorism. What do you mean by enough is enough? Is that an admission that our whole counter terrorism strategy isn't working? Or is it just "tough talk" and actually just trying to appear statesperson like?

 

May wants to more heavily regulate the internet, she wants to make it so that nobody can have privacy. The government can always listen in. That's not something I could support unless she can offer evidence that it is actually possible (doubtful) and that it would actually prevent terrorism. 

 

Personally I think there are solutions but they will not happen overnight. 

 

 

Well one solution is to have a counter terrorism specialist in every mosque in the country and the authorities must have a list of every Muslim man of a certain age group that's visited Syria or Libya in the last couple of years

[Dr The Singh]

7 minutes ago, hejammy said:

I never said there wasnt a link between the two. I was simply stating that I disagreed with your statement that it's Islam to blame. Crazy (or doolalay) people need a reason to justify their actions, and they have chosen a twisted version of Islam. So it's still the individuals fault and not Islam itself. 

Ofcourse I would not compare hooliganism and terrorist acts. I was simply comparing them to give you an idea behind why your logic (in my opinion) was flawed. 

I think we have to disagree, Islamic terrorism is not a new thing, it has been going in since the day it was formed.  Any book of law or guidance or any totalariam concept that can is up for interpretation in an extreme form, is dangerous.   Not wanting it to be a Islamic debate, it's fair to say the Qur'an and Mohammed himself are controversial.  A sixth century law book and a 6th century guy who is seen as the epitome of man, being used in the 20th century, there is bound to be controversy.