Incident at London Bridge

[yorkie1999]

7 minutes ago, Samilktray said:

I have a shaved head and a beard and I've had a few weird looks today tbf 

I bet you have Sharon 

[Rincewind]

1 minute ago, yorkie1999 said:

Wonder how many mosques there actually are in this country

not as many as some would have us believe. There are more churches.

[Sharpe's Fox]

Doesn't help when the Home Secretary censors any talk of Saudi Arabia in a discussion about Manchester

 

 

[Rincewind]

Some sikhs have beards too and jews. Wizards have beards too.

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Doesn't help when the Home Secretary censors any talk of Saudi Arabia in a discussion about Manchester

 

 

These people were killed with a van and knives. What has arms sales to Saudi Arabia got to do with it?

[yorkie1999]

1 minute ago, Rincewind said:

not as many as some would have us believe. There are more churches.

Just looked it up. 1750. That's 1750 officers to put one in each. Doesn't seem like an overstretch of resources to me.

[yorkie1999]

1 minute ago, Rincewind said:

Some sikhs have beards too and jews. Wizards have beards too.

And clams.

[bovril]

1 minute ago, yorkie1999 said:

And clams.

They need to be wiped off the earth with some heavy shelling.

[yorkie1999]

Just now, bovril said:

They need to be wiped off the earth with some heavy shelling.

Heavy shaving

[Sharpe's Fox]

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

These people were killed with a van and knives. What has arms sales to Saudi Arabia got to do with it?

Pretty well known that the Wahhabism branch of Islam that terrorists spout is funded and promoted by both individuals and the state in Saudi Arabia. Making deals with those people expands their influence by exporting preachers and building Mosques.

[LiberalFox]

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

These people were killed with a van and knives. What has arms sales to Saudi Arabia got to do with it?

Saudi Arabia is a big exporter of extremist ideology and a nasty regime in its own right. We shouldn't be selling them weapons or doing so much business with them.

[Rincewind]

3 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

Saudi Arabia is a big exporter of extremist ideology and a nasty regime in its own right. We shouldn't be selling them weapons or doing so much business with them.

They are friendly terrorists

[Jattdogg]

5 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

Saudi Arabia is a big exporter of extremist ideology and a nasty regime in its own right. We shouldn't be selling them weapons or doing so much business with them.

Donald trump loves to dance with them.

[Rincewind]

10 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Just looked it up. 1750. That's 1750 officers to put one in each. Doesn't seem like an overstretch of resources to me.

They could use Muslim police officers

[Webbo]

13 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Pretty well known that the Wahhabism branch of Islam that terrorists spout is funded and promoted by both individuals and the state in Saudi Arabia. Making deals with those people expands their influence by exporting preachers and building Mosques.

So if we didn't sell arms legally to the Saudis then there wouldn't be any wahabism?

 

Given Corbyn's, McDonnell's and Abott's support for terrorism I don't think this is a path you want to go down.

[Crinklyfox]

The reason we are able to discuss this subject on Foxestalk is because we have freedom of speech.  Once we go down the path of trying to regulate this, through internet restrictions or other means, we reduce that freedom.  It is then only a short step to controlling what we are allowed to see and hear.

 

If the evil people that commit these atrocities change our society in this way then they will have succeeded in part in their goal.  We should not consider it.

 

The evildoers that promote such acts are no different to many historical figures who have manipulated impressionable people through the ages.  Education and peer values are a method of combating them and I would rather we went down that route than interfere with the fundamental freedoms of our society.

[bovril]

Bodies aren't even cold and it's turned into a May vs Corbyn thread.

 

Saudi Arabia and Turkey fund sunni-extremist schools, mosques and groups throughout Europe. This is pretty much an established fact. They are major allies. Despite what people may believe reading the Express, 'closing the border' and voting for a particular party is not going to stop this cancer from growing. It's a global fight and I personally believe reassessing which countries we want to be supporting and which (Iran for example) we want to keep blacklisting might be at least a start.

[Guest ttfn]

Theresa May saying "enough is enough" is just utterly vacuous. A total nothing statement.

 

She had ample opportunity in six years as Home Secretary to cut off a lot of the sources of Islamic extremism in the UK.

[LiberalFox]

11 minutes ago, Webbo said:

So if we didn't sell arms legally to the Saudis then there wouldn't be any wahabism?

 

Given Corbyn's, McDonnell's and Abott's support for terrorism I don't think this is a path you want to go down.

 

Maybe being overtly political isn't right but there's nothing wrong with being critical of our dealings with the Saudis. You can still vote Conservative but their terrorism strategy is crap (It's basically Tony Blair's anyway)

[Redouane]

This exact thing happened when I was in Tokyo.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akihabara_massacre

 

I don't understand why everyone jumped out and claimed it to be a terror attack? 

[RoboFox]

I was with some friends in a pub on the Southbank, about 5 minutes walk from where it all kicked off last night. We could see and hear the police presence but didn't really know what was going on until we received news of what was happening.

 

Once it became apparent, there was a slight sense of unease, but people just carried on... Londoners have an incredible resilience when it comes to being able to finish their overpriced alcoholic beverages.

 

When we were able to hail a taxi to get out of central London, we were picked up by a Turkish taxi driver who was visibly upset, trying to explain to us that he was a Muslim and that the attacks were not representative of his religion.

 

I told him there was no need to explain himself.

 

Some posts in this thread leave me perturbed.

 

As some others here have said, it's important that the actions of a few do not cause us to cast blame on a vast majority.

[cambridgefox]

4 hours ago, Matt said:

 

We/They (The Security Services) are...then they do nothing...then something happens...then they make a statement saying "They were known to the Security Services"...and repeat.

 

I don't know what the answer is, I'm not educated enough and I don't claim to be, as someone else has said there are people paid to make these decisions and plans, but the fact almost everytime we hear that they were known to the security services, I know that is a massive failure.

 

I'm sure there are many blocked and foiled attacks, some we know about, some i'm sure we don't, which I am grateful and thank the security services for but all the attacks that do happen, the attackers are apparently known...do something about it!!

Really difficult this.The security services often infiltrate groups to get more Intel eg undercover.

You look further up the chain to find the " big boys"

They are then " known to authorities" but at what point do you not take action to gather Intel ,or do something to stop this sort of horrific attack( make them vanish and say they have gone to Libya/ Syria etc

Not sure I could make that decision.

 

[Foxxed]

This "there is too much tolerance of extremism" annoys me.

 

What does it mean? Give me an example of such tolerance.

 

We learnt from the Manchester bombing the guy's mosque spoke against ISIS and reported him to the police.

 

The main source of extremism is the Saudi wahhabism. And we're giving the Saudi's loads of money.

 

Is she saying we're going to stop trade deals with the Saudis? If so we need a coordinated approach with our allies and neighbours.

 

It's probably difficult to dictate how a religious organisation is funded. They'll just use front organisations. But it's worthwhile trying. 

 

And giving the source of the funding money in the first place. And that'd need a move away from fossil fuels and western coordination on such.

 

Quote

The Muslim woman who spoke of Saudi-funded mosques and the spread of Wahhabi Islam in Thursday’s Question Time was spot on.

What makes Wahhabism so damaging? We don’t have to look further than its ideologues, such as its founder Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab who is refered to in ISIS publications. His preaching was vehemently intolerant and violent. Anyone who disagreed with his narrow understating of Islam was considered an apostate and would be punishable by death. His preaching brought bloodshed to the Arabian Peninsula in the form of beheadings, executions, and amputations, much like what we have witnessed from ISIS.

Bernard Haykel, a scholar at Princeton describes the ISIS’ ideology as “a kind of untamed Wahhabism,” and says that “Wahhabism is the closest religious cognate.” Personally, I would not describe ISIS’ ideology as an untamed form of Wahhabism. For me, this overshadows the fundamental problem with Wahhabism’s Islamic theology and implies that Saudi Arabia’s Wahhabism is “tamed.”

A former imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Sheikh Aadel Al-Kalbani, Al-Kalbani, criticised aspects within the Salafi stream for permitting the killing of opponents. He announced that ISIS was the result of the Salafi version of Islam, and therefore the Salafi sect needed to change. It could be argued that the difference between Saudi Arabia and ISIS, is that Saudi Arabia merely has nicer buildings. There is no taming a theology, which consists of noxious principles. What makes it worse is that this ideology has spread far and wide in the UK.

In 2007, Dr Denis MacEoin, an Islamic studies expert at Newcastle who previously taught at the University of Fez, led a team of researchers over a two-year project, uncovering a hoard of malignant literature inside as many as a quarter of Britain’s mosques. All of it had been published and distributed by agencies linked to the government of Saudi Arabia.

Among some of the content found in the material were recommendations to burn, stone, and throw homosexuals from mountains or tall buildings, and inflict the same on those who commit adultery or dare to leave or change their religion.

Almost half of the literature, which was openly available in many mosques including the East London Mosque in Whitechapel which had been visited by Prince Charles, was written in English, suggesting that its target audience was that of young British Muslims who would have no formal training in Arabic or Urdu.

It us estimated that Saudi spending on religious causes abroad are between $2bn [£960m] and $3bn per year since 1975 (comparing favourably with what was the annual Soviet propaganda budget of $1bn during the cold war), which has been spent on 1,500 mosques, 210 Islamic centres and dozens of Muslim academies and schools.

It is no exaggeration then to say that these mosques are little more than propaganda factories producing Wahhabi ideologues to populate the streets of Britain. In 2002, Jamaican convert Sheikh Abdullah el-Faisal who had trained at a Saudi university, was caught on tape saying “You can use chemical weapons to exterminate the unbelievers. Is that clear? If you have cockroaches in your house, you spray them with chemicals.” Germaine Lindsay, one of the 7/7 bombers, was among his followers.

This was in 2002, and though the Saudis began to cut back on their international funding after they came into the spotlight following 9/11, imagine how deep the roots of Salafist thought have embedded themselves in British mosques today.

In addition to funding their propaganda in Britain, at home in Saudi Arabia, the Islamic University of Medina reserves 85% of its places for foreign students, resulting in hundreds of British graduates who have returned to the UK with their newly found hard-line Salafist views.

When discussing extremism and radicalisation in the UK, the elephant in the room, without a doubt, is Wahhabism. ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, and other terrorist groups all subscribe to this hostile intolerant reading of Islam. If we are serious about challenging extremism, surely we should start by stopping the mass export of intolerance and hatred of Wahhabism from Saudi Arabia to the UK http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/16825640

 

[Sharpe's Fox]

43 minutes ago, Webbo said:

So if we didn't sell arms legally to the Saudis then there wouldn't be any wahabism?

 

Given Corbyn's, McDonnell's and Abott's support for terrorism I don't think this is a path you want to go down.

No I'm not saying that I'm saying it doesn't help that the Home Secretary censors debate on the subject.

 

and I also don't care about what you say about Corbyn or anyone else. Reading some of your past posts on the subject I think Alf has demostrated how thick you actually come across on it.

[Webbo]

Just now, Sharpe's Fox said:

No I'm not saying that I'm saying it doesn't help that the Home Secretary censors debate on the subject.

 

and I also don't care about what you say about Corbyn or anyone else. Reading some of your past posts on the subject I think Alf has demostrated how thick you actually come across on the subject

We sell arms to Saudi Arabia, there are Wahabis in Saudi Arabia so all Islamic terrorism is our fault, that's thick. especially as these people were killed with a van and knives. 

 

This political point scoring is pathetic and hypocritical after such events.