Our system detected that your browser is blocking advertisements on our site. Please help support FoxesTalk by disabling any kind of ad blocker while browsing this site. Thank you.
Jump to content
 Share
Stinkenzo

The OH Leuven Thread

By Stinkenzo, in Leicester City Forum

Recommended Posts

Foxxed

Foxxed

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, Bonanza said:

To be honest, I was pissing myself laughing when I was typing the explanation :D. This simply is the most ridiculous system in sports history.

The top Belgian league is more sensible, right? I've given up trying to understand your two half seasons, playoffs even if you win, european football if you lose, separate mini leagues for the winner or the looser, secret handshakes, bribery, corruption, the crew of The Wire getting ideas for a new season. Somewhere in all that Soweh is trying to play some football. We can only pray he escapes unharmed.

  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bonanza

Bonanza

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Foxxed said:

The top Belgian league is more sensible, right? I've given up trying to understand your two half seasons, playoffs even if you win, european football if you lose, separate mini leagues for the winner or the looser, secret handshakes, bribery, corruption, the crew of The Wire getting ideas for a new season. Somewhere in all that Soweh is trying to play some football. We can only pray he escapes unharmed.

Our 1st division is also quite ridiculous to be fair :blush:.

 

The good news is that a lot of Belgian clubs are sick and tired of these messed up systems and it looks like we might get a "normal league system" of 18 or 20 teams in the near future.

Edited by Bonanza
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bonanza

Bonanza

Posted
Posted

Results and standings after the 4th week of the 2nd period.

 

 

Lommel - OH Leuven    3-2

Beerschot - Virton          1-1

Lokeren - Roeselare      1-3

Westerlo - Union            0-3

 

 

                                 Points    Wins     Losses     Draws     Goals made     Goals conceded     Goal difference

 

1. Beerschot                 8            2             0               2                  7                           2                              +5

2. Union                        7            2             1               1                  5                           2                              +3

3. Roeselare                 7            2             1               1                 10                          8                              +2

4. Lommel                    7            2             1               1                   5                          5                                0

5. OH Leuven              6            2             2               0                   6                          8                               -2

6. Westerlo                   4            1             2              1                   7                           9                               -2

7. Virton                        3            0             2              3                   3                           5                               -2

8. Lokeren                    1            0             3              1                   3                           7                               -4

 

The winner of the 2nd period will face us in the final. If we also win the 2nd period, we automatically win the league an go up to the 1st division.

 

Overall standings:

 

                                Points    Wins     Losses     Draws     Goals made     Goals conceded     Goal difference

 

1. OH Leuven*            34         11             5              1                 28                         18                          +10

2. Virton                       30          9              6              3                 29                         15                          +14

3. Westerlo                  30          9              6              3                 28                         19                           +9 

4. Union*                     29          7              4              5                 23                         17                           +6

5. Beerschot                25          7              7              4                 20                         21                           -1

6. Roeselare                18         5             10             3                  25                         39                          -14

7. Lommel                   18          4              8              6                 14                         24                           -10

8. Lokeren                   14          3             10             5                 16                         30                          -14 

 

*OH Leuven and Union still have a game in hand.

 

At the end of the regular season the teams that finished 1st, 2nd, 3th, 4th, 5th and 6th will participate in Playoff 2 with the numbers 7 through 16 of the 1st division. The winner of Playoff 2 will compete with the 4th placed team in Playoff 1 for a place the Europa League 2nd qualifying round.

 

The 2 bottom teams will face off in a best-of-5 to decide who drops down to the 1st amateur division. 

 

Next week's fixtures:

 

Friday

Roeselare - OH Leuven

 

Saturday:

Virton - Lommel

Westerlo - Beerschot

 

Sunday:

Union - Lokeren

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Lizhang

Lizhang

Posted
Posted
On 06/12/2019 at 22:24, Lizhang said:

For all of you who are still not convinced by VAR, you should have seen Lommel - OHL.

 

Disgusting referee. Two penalties and a red card against us, each of them unfounded. On the other hand, we did not get a clear cut penalty, and the other side got away with one after the other foul, and should have seen 2 players sent off with a double yellow.

 

3-2

Today, OHL issued a statement on their website, pleading to introduce VAR in our league.

 

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ohleuven.com%2Fnieuws%2F1525193%2Freactie-oh-leuven-op-wedstrijdverloop-in-lommel

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Pelotas

Pelotas

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 07/12/2019 at 23:03, Bonanza said:

Our 1st division is also quite ridiculous to be fair :blush:.

 

The good news is that a lot of Belgian clubs are sick and tired of these messed up systems and it looks like we might get a "normal league system" of 18 or 20 teams in the near future.

 

That would be horrible… there's a lot to be said on how the current system can be improved, but a regular league of 18 or 20 teams would be even worse than what we currently have, especially for a tiny league such as the Belgian one... halfway through the season, half of the teams would be playing for basically nothing anymore and then who would come watch Waasland-Beveren vs. Virton, Eupen vs Union SG or Westerlo vs. Oostende... no one! People don't care about end of season matches in which the result does not matter... the current PO2 is the perfect example!

 

Personally I'm in favor of the playoff system in general as it has clearly improved the level of Belgian football, which resulted in much better results achieved in Europe and a strongly increased level of the smaller teams (especially those in 1B). But especially the PO2/Europa League playoffs and the whole format of 1B are a joke and indeed need to be revised urgently. The blocking factor however are all the smaller teams in 1A, preventing all suggested reforms which involve an increase of the number of teams relegating from 1A (currently that's just one team, but if they could they would reduce that even further)... they're all preserving their own rather than thinking long term (this is also the reason the 1B teams get to play PO2/European playoffs, they were offered this to avoid having more teams relegating/promoting each between 1A/1B season)

 

Note that competitions of other minor leagues of similar smaller countries such as Bulgaria and Denmark have COPIED the Belgian system because of it's benefits/success, but have made changes to make it better, specifially they have

  • LOWERED the number of teams in the highest division to 14,
  • AVOIDED fencing off the top league from the rest by having 1 certain + 2 possible extra relegations,
  • KEPT the points from the regular season, both in PO1 and PO2. (Personally I don't mind too much that they divide points in half at the start of PO1, but okay I understand why some prefer to remove it.)
  • MADE PO2 RELEVANT by making sure that the result of PO2 determines both who will play for the European ticket but ALSO who will play to avoid for relegation, this guarantees ALMOST NO matches without importance but rather excitement until the last match. (Oh and of course they have not copied the silly participation of 1B teams). Finally, note as well from the previous bullet point that they keep the points of the regular season, therefore the team finishing 7th will likely qualify for the European places playoffs, while the 14th will likely play the relegation playoffs, but especially for the teams between those positions this makes for much more interesting games!

If it was me... i'ld use the Danish/Bulgarian system immediately with 14 teams and resolve 1B as a single regular league of 10, 12 or max 14 teams. Note that the system above foresees that the 2nd and 3rd finisher of 1B each play a team from 1A for promotion. Creating a league of 18 or 20 is another step backwards... 

 

And yes, because of PO1 the rich get richer, but let's be honest that's not different for regular leagues. Teams like Charleroi, Kortrijk, Zulte Waregem have gained a lot by reaching the top 6 a few times while in a normal league they would earn nothing for becoming 5th or 6th... Gent even became champions for the first time ever under the PO system and also BECAUSE OF the PO system (as they were actually only second after the regular season). 

 

The system is not straightforward I agree... but in this case simple is imho not better.

 

@Bonanza @Lizhang & other Belgian guys... much interested in your opinion why specifially a regular competition would be better...

 

 

For completeness, from Wikipedia on the PO2 (or "qualifying playoff" as they call it) of the Danish Superliga:

Quote

The qualifying playoff is split into two groups, with the teams that finished the regular season in 7th, 10th, 11th, and 14th in one group and those finishing 8th, 9th, 12th, and 13th in the other. Each group plays home-and-away within its group. The top two teams from each group then enter a knockout tournament, with each match over two legs. If the Danish Cup winner is among the top two finishers in either playoff group, it is withdrawn from the knockout playoff and its opponent automatically advances to the tournament final. The winner of that tournament faces the third-place (or fourth-place) team from the championship playoff in a one-off match, with the winner entering the Europa League in the first qualifying round.

The bottom two teams from each group then contest a relegation playoff with several steps, centered on a separate four-team knockout playoff, also consisting totally of two-legged matches:

  • The third-placed teams in each group play over two legs, with the winners remaining in the Superliga and the losers advancing to a play-off final against the third-place team from the 1st Division.
  • The bottom teams in each group play over two legs, with the winners advancing to a play-off final against the second-place team from the 1st Division, and the losers dropping to next season's 1st Division.
  • The winners of each play-off final play in the next season's Superliga.

 

Edited by Pelotas
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Lizhang

Lizhang

Posted
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Pelotas said:

 

@Bonanza @Lizhang & other Belgian guys... much interested in your opinion why specifially a regular competition would be better...

 

I think play-offs are a fake way of creating entertainment. If you are the best at the end of the season, you should be the champion. Done. I know some pundits like Filip Joos think our PO1 is a good thing and that it raises the level of our football... but i personally don't believe it for one second and i thought we had long put this myth to bed. If our top clubs get better results in Europe, it has more to do with them focussing on European football first and foremost, and having the luxury to start focusing on the competition only in january/february, which will still result in them reaching the play-offs (1), where points are cut in half and everybody still has a shot at the title. At the same time throughout the season, the smaller teams that don't play European football and don't have to focus on it as a result, can put all their energy in the competition, and will for a long time be able to give the impression of being able to compete for the play-offs... until the "big boys" get kicked out of the Europa League, shift their focus towards the competition, and they leapfrog whichever small team(s) is(/are) in front of them. So you create the illusion that the competition is more tense (because the small teams appear stronger... but in reality the big teams are simply focusing on European football the first part of the season) and you create the illusion that Belgian teams are stronger in Europe (which is simply because they can get away with half-assing the competition, and focus on Europe, because they just need to reach the play-offs). It's all smoke and mirrors and it's a form of cheating if you'd compare it to other European teams from small countries that do not have the same luxury.

 

Going for a bigger 20 team 1st division, and a normal amateur division right beneath it, is a huge risk. I'm not even going to "imho" that statement. My initial response would be "what's the difference with 10 years ago?". Back then, we had an 18 team 1st division, and an 18 team 2nd division. Some teams in 2nd div were pro (like OHL), many were not (like Zaventem, Eupen (back then), Club Liège... iirc). We would basically be going back to that, of which the consensus back then was that something had to change The only difference now is that all 2nd div teams would have to be amateur teams. Which means those teams can not have an "elite" level youth division anymore and getting relegated would be even more devastating, due to to the fact that you'd be obligated to drop your pro status (which you didn't have to 10 years ago). Had this line been drawn last year, OHL would not have made the first 20, and this would have been a disaster for the club that was trying to become more professional and which values its elite youth. All of that would have been lost. And it still might. What if we make the cut, but somehow get relegated the next few years? It will be a rude awakening, dropping down to amateur football, losing your entire elite youth, based on one bad season. Back to the stoneage.

 

As such the 8 team 2nd division acts as a buffer, and i don't think there is anything wrong with that per se. However, there is something wrong with (again) this play-off system, based on 2 periods. As it stands, we would have to play a double final against a team that has 10 points LESS in competition, and might lose out while having been the best team all season. If you, Pelotas, see the injustice in this, then i don't understand that you can be in favor of the PO1 system in first division, which essentially boils down to the same thing. Anyway, The current (2nd div) system sucks, but it could easily be improved upon. Allow more teams to relegate out of 1st div and more teams to get promoted out of 2nd div. Getting relegated isn't dramatic as you automatically have a big shot at promotion the next year or two. And you get to keep the buffer between 1st div and amateur division. Drop the asinine 2 period/play-off final system. First 2 or 3 teams out of 8 go up. Now you get frustrated being stuck in a mini league facing the same teams over and over (4 times per year + countless extra play-off/final/play-down matches on top of that). If you drop all those extra matches, and there are 2 or 3 teams that get promoted, you get a much larger circulation. Either you as club will not be in this division in 2-3 years, or if you still are, you won't be facing the same teams every year over and over.

 

Reshuffle the budgets. Basically EVERY time they try to reform the league, the problem is the small teams don't get what they deserve. Bigger teams throw the small teams a bone (promise to vote for a relegation system that has a safety net) and things stay the same. The real problems, of which dividing the copyrights / TV budgets is one of the biggest, are never dealt with. Because the big teams have all the power. They can even outvote the small teams, which are in fact, stronger in numbers as long as they get a few of the small clubs on their side. And there are always a few of the small clubs who either get tricked into believing it's in their best interest, or even "think" they will be a big club in a few years time... which then never happens. In fact, i think the game the bigger Belgian clubs have been playing, and how they've been terrorizing the smaller teams (and i don't mean on the pitch), is maybe the biggest problem in Belgium. If they would really want to raise the level of the Belgian league, they would allow the smaller clubs to thrive and actually challenge the bigger clubs. Everybody would benefit from that. Take the plankton out of the lake, and everything dies. Including the big fish.

 

Personally, i'd favor a system with a bigger 1st division (18), but with more teams getting relegated (2 as an absolute minimum, but i'd say 3, or even 4) and a smaller 2nd division (of 8 to 10). Drop all the play-off nonsense. Divide the budgets correctly. Delete the winter transfer period, cut the summer transfer period short at the start of the competition. Make arrangements for more youth players to get a better shot at making the team.

Obviously, all the issues i have with how things are going now, are a result of Belgian clubs and chairmen, trying to stay relevant in Europe. Which brings us to a whole other cesspool.

Edited by Lizhang
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Pelotas

Pelotas

Posted
Posted (edited)

Thanks for the analysis @Lizhang, very interesting, especially since we seem to differ in opinion entirely. By the way, the league reform will probably be discussed on the Pro League meeting of 17 December.

 

Some more remarks from my viewpoint below:

On 10/12/2019 at 21:14, Lizhang said:

I think play-offs are a fake way of creating entertainment.

The play-offs are indeed "creating entertainment" and the attendance figures are supporting that entirely. There's no less supporters showing up for the regular season matches compared to pre-playoff seasons, while the play-offs themselves are a success for all participating teams, at least playoff 1 that is. Why you call it fake is a riddle to me. The main issue with playoffs as I said lies with:

  • playoff 2 which was just instated to keep the small teams busy but revolves around nothing and
  • league 1B where a very select group of teams play eachother over and over again (playoff 3 teams this season might play up to nine (9!) times against eachother)

 

On 10/12/2019 at 21:14, Lizhang said:

If you are the best at the end of the season, you should be the champion. Done. 

Non-argument: the "season" in this case is defined as regular competition + playoffs. At the end the team with the most points is champion. Yes, there is the division of points, but I find it a bit childish that clubs come to complain about this if they agreed to have this as a rule beforehand. Anyway, with or without division of points going into the playoffs this still is a valid system to determine a champion (See also Scotland, league splits in top and bottom half halfway through the season, been like that for ages). Somehow people seem attached to the past and always keep referring to this "simple" competition but in my view this is an outdated system which is just no longer interesting from a commercial point of view. Sorry but this statement really sounds like an elderly person complaining that "everything used to be better before". Nowadays, people want excitement, call it fake if you must, but recently throughout all sports we're seeing MORE leagues appearing involving promotion/relegation/playoffs matches where the results actually matter... examples:

  •  UEFA Nations League and CONCACAF Nations League (started 2018 to avoid meaningless friendlies) and
  •  UEFA Europe Conference League (starting 2021 to have more club teams in Europe)
  •  FIH Hockey PRO League (started 2018, yearly league tournament replacing Hockey World League, again to have less friendlies)
  •  FIVB Volleyball Nations League (started 2018, expanding number of participating nations from prior trnmts)
  •  Davis Cup Tennis Finals (started 2019, I admit this was not a success but again they're looking for commercial ideas)

Football used to be better when it wasn't commercial you say? I'm afraid we're going to have to live with this, it's what made it big in the first place. Without King Power OHL would probably have been an amateur team...

 

On 10/12/2019 at 21:14, Lizhang said:

So you create the illusion that the competition is more tense (because the small teams appear stronger... but in reality the big teams are simply focusing on European football the first part of the season) and you create the illusion that Belgian teams are stronger in Europe (which is simply because they can get away with half-assing the competition, and focus on Europe, because they just need to reach the play-offs). It's all smoke and mirrors and it's a form of cheating if you'd compare it to other European teams from small countries that do not have the same luxury.

You're right, Belgian clubs indeed have the option to focus on Europe until the winter break, which has not increased the level instantly, but they have benefited gradually from that over the last decade by each time progressing further, gaining cash, experience & prestige and I truly believe the teams are better now than before. The fact that other leagues are copying the system is also a sign that the system has benefits. Personally I don't see this as cheating but rather "optimization" like for instance you would do to minimize your taxes.

 

Also the reform of the league to involve fewer teams at the professional level has caused all teams in general to become stronger as they have less margin for error and the less talented players are forced out sooner to amateur teams, but this could have been done without play-offs, true.

 

On 10/12/2019 at 21:14, Lizhang said:

Going for a bigger 20 team 1st division, and a normal amateur division right beneath it, is a huge risk.

 

As such the 8 team 2nd division acts as a buffer, and i don't think there is anything wrong with that per se. However, there is something wrong with (again) this play-off system, based on 2 periods. As it stands, we would have to play a double final against a team that has 10 points LESS in competition, and might lose out while having been the best team all season. If you, Pelotas, see the injustice in this, then i don't understand that you can be in favor of the PO1 system in first division, which essentially boils down to the same thing. Anyway, The current (2nd div) system sucks, but it could easily be improved upon. Allow more teams to relegate out of 1st div and more teams to get promoted out of 2nd div. Getting relegated isn't dramatic as you automatically have a big shot at promotion the next year or two. And you get to keep the buffer between 1st div and amateur division. Drop the asinine 2 period/play-off final system. First 2 or 3 teams out of 8 go up. Now you get frustrated being stuck in a mini league facing the same teams over and over (4 times per year + countless extra play-off/final/play-down matches on top of that). If you drop all those extra matches, and there are 2 or 3 teams that get promoted, you get a much larger circulation. Either you as club will not be in this division in 2-3 years, or if you still are, you won't be facing the same teams every year over and over.

Couldn't agree more. There needs to be more than just one professional level and the system in 1B is crap as just like PO2 it's just made to "keep the other teams busy". But I'm not saying 1B is crap due to the playoffs themselves, just due to the fact there's only 8 teams because the 16 in 1A want to stay in 1A rather than reorganise to for instance two leagues of 12. That's what happening now again, they'ld rather allow more teams into 1A than face the probability of relegating to 1B. Again you're right, we need to fix 1B to make sure a relegation is not such a big problem, have more teams go up/down each season as you say. At this level I'm not sure we need play-offs indeed, because here there's no Europe to play for, only going up or down but I'm not saying to abolish POs in general, rather think about a serious reform of PO2 & 1B. Personally fo 1B I would create a simple league with say 12 teams (But that's only 22 matches, after season split into top/bottom half keeping points for 10 extra matches?) and have some simple direct promotion/relegation matches between 1A and 1B teams towards the end but indeed no endless playoffs that mean nothing. On the injustice, the example of Lierse a few seasons ago is a good case (I think they had most points over the whole season but ended up second in both periods and thus did not qualify for the promotion playoffs) which indeed shows that this is different from before. But again, if you agree on those rules beforehand, complaing afterwards is childish and different does not equal wrong. Since you draw the parallel with PO1, I'm guessing you refer to the division of points again, as I said, no strong opinion there, can be removed if that helps the "feeling of injustice".

 

On 10/12/2019 at 21:14, Lizhang said:

Reshuffle the budgets. Basically EVERY time they try to reform the league, the problem is the small teams don't get what they deserve. Bigger teams throw the small teams a bone (promise to vote for a relegation system that has a safety net) and things stay the same. The real problems, of which dividing the copyrights / TV budgets is one of the biggest, are never dealt with. Because the big teams have all the power. They can even outvote the small teams, which are in fact, stronger in numbers as long as they get a few of the small clubs on their side. And there are always a few of the small clubs who either get tricked into believing it's in their best interest, or even "think" they will be a big club in a few years time... which then never happens. In fact, i think the game the bigger Belgian clubs have been playing, and how they've been terrorizing the smaller teams (and i don't mean on the pitch), is maybe the biggest problem in Belgium. If they would really want to raise the level of the Belgian league, they would allow the smaller clubs to thrive and actually challenge the bigger clubs. Everybody would benefit from that. Take the plankton out of the lake, and everything dies. Including the big fish.

No comment. :worship:

 

On 10/12/2019 at 21:14, Lizhang said:

Personally, i'd favor a system with a bigger 1st division (18), but with more teams getting relegated (2 as an absolute minimum, but i'd say 3, or even 4) and a smaller 2nd division (of 8 to 10). Drop all the play-off nonsense. Divide the budgets correctly. Delete the winter transfer period, cut the summer transfer period short at the start of the competition. Make arrangements for more youth players to get a better shot at making the team.

Obviously, all the issues i have with how things are going now, are a result of Belgian clubs and chairmen, trying to stay relevant in Europe. Which brings us to a whole other cesspool.

You're increasing the ttotal number of professional teams. Think Belgium's too small for that, just reallocate some from 1A to 1B. As said I do agree that more promotion/relegation spots are essential. I'ld prefer to have that ahead of playoffs, but playoffs ahead of a regular dull league. :) Transfer period, yes, amen to that. Winter transfer period is also a major issue imho. Youth players yes, but here the problem lies with the cheap foreign players. Case of Holland has been made often, where a foreign player earns a multiple (by law) of a local player, giving more chance to local players.

 

Last sentence, oh yes!

 

On a closing note, not trying to offend here... just open discussion with different opinions, don't take anything personal.

Edited by Pelotas
Link to comment
Share on other sites
KingsX

KingsX

Posted
Posted

Why don’t we all just admit that the Belgian leagues are set up as an indeterminate equation.  Like dividing by zero … there is no “answer” available to mere human brains. 

 

On the day after the season they get together over moules, frites and huge kegs of Westmalle Quadrupel to pick the playoff teams out of a hat, and spin the wheel to decide how many times they will play.  Some club obliges by breaking the rules or going out of business, so relegation to the amateur ranks isn’t even a decision.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest Cujek

Guest Cujek

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

I'm a-Leuven in a box. Leuven! I'm a-Leuven in a cardboard box.

how has it got to 110 pages before these puns come out, im Leuven it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Stoopid

Stoopid

Posted
Posted

Can't even begin to get my head round all this Belgian League stuff,  but - as a teenager remember being at a Belgian country railway station early in the morning once. One bloke, dressed respectably in office clothes suddenly unzipped himself and pissed on the rails. Nobody else batted an eyelid.

Together with salad cream on chips and Rene Magritte, I thought hmm...my kind of country.

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Lizhang

Lizhang

Posted
Posted (edited)

  

10 hours ago, Pelotas said:

Thanks for the analysis @Lizhang, very interesting, especially since we seem to differ in opinion entirely. By the way, the league reform will probably be discussed on the Pro League meeting of 17 December.

Seems like we agree on basically most of it except for Div 1 play-off 1? It's simply that PO1 takes up most of your post lol

 

10 hours ago, Pelotas said:

Non-argument: the "season" in this case is defined as regular competition + playoffs. At the end the team with the most points is champion. Yes, there is the division of points, but I find it a bit childish that clubs come to complain about this if they agreed to have this as a rule beforehand.

Just because this is agreed by all teams before going into the season, does not make it a non-argument. It's an opinion, first and foremost. It's also no way to debate, because otherwise you could throw most of our posts in the bin, as  it's all been defined the way it is already, and all teams have agreed to it. Then why bother having a conversation which is always going to be about personal preference.

 

Call me old fashioned but i think having play-offs to determine who is the champion, is an artificial (and thus fake) way to produce entertainment, and at a cost. It is getting further and further away of the concept of an honest "sport". Not just the concept of cutting points in half, but the entire league is defined by it. As i explained earlier, the big teams will half-ass their way through the competition until january/february. Imagine you are a small team fighting relegation, and you face these teams at the beginning of the cycle, you have a good shot at getting some points against the top teams (you'll face them in august and december). But if you face these teams at the end of the cycle, this means you will again face them a second time in february/march when they might still be battling to get into PO1 or widen the gap with a rival, and you are very much fcked as a small team fighting relegation. Please remember the last time we got relegated, and out of our last 5 games, we faced 3 top teams in full swing. The fact that it is defined and agreed upon, does not change that. It's plain and simple "competitievervalsing". Too lazy to look up what that would be in proper English, sorry, lol.

 

And if you need another stone cold argument to ditch PO1, because the rest of the league can not support it. And by support, i don't mean by votes. If PO1 can only exist by having PO2, because all teams must play the same number of games as "defined" by regulations as far as i'm aware, then that in itself is enough to pull the plug.

 

10 hours ago, Pelotas said:

Football used to be better when it wasn't commercial you say? I'm afraid we're going to have to live with this, it's what made it big in the first place. Without King Power OHL would probably have been an amateur team...

I seriously can not remember having stated this, or even having implied it. That said, there are definitely issues with the way money can find it's way to one club very easily, while a similar club might go bankrupt, just based on geological factors, cultural factors etc. Yes i do think there needs to be put a cap on spendings, on earnings (be it a hard cap or one of severe diminishing returns, where the money flows back to the rest of the community... same story, take away the plankton, even the big fish will die). And this should start with Fifa & Uefa. If these problems had been tackled in the past, a lot of the local problems we are facing with our play-off systems etc, would never have existed in the first place. There would be no need to look for a silly solution to stay relevant in Europe, because the problem wouldn't exist in the first place. Again, my issue is with the concept of the "sport" becoming more and more diffuse. It should be a game about skill, wit, team play, tactics, endurance, training... not about finding the biggest sponsor to buy you the best players. Yet more and more that balance is completely out of whack.

  

10 hours ago, Pelotas said:

You're right, Belgian clubs indeed have the option to focus on Europe until the winter break, which has not increased the level instantly, but they have benefited gradually from that over the last decade by each time progressing further, gaining cash, experience & prestige and I truly believe the teams are better now than before. The fact that other leagues are copying the system is also a sign that the system has benefits. Personally I don't see this as cheating but rather "optimization" like for instance you would do to minimize your taxes.

If they have been getting better, the only explanation is indeed as you implied, them going further into Europe, getting bigger bonuses. More cash to spend on the squad/club. And yes, to me that is a way of cheating, since you are getting an unfair advantage over many other clubs from other countries, who do not have the luxury to "half-ass" their way through their local competition, without consequence.

It is also fundamentally unfair to the smaller Belgian clubs. Because the extra cash they (the bigger teams) pick up in Europe, they basically earn on the backs of the small teams. The small teams have no benefit from the play-offs (they have to play PO2), the bigger clubs have the entire league catered towards their "need" to go further in Europe, they get rewarded TWICE (getting to focus on Europe without consequence in the local competition, and getting "the spoils" of their European success, which they can only earn thanks to the small teams their sacrifice). In the meantime the gap between the big teams and the small teams, is getting exponentially bigger. Meaning for the big teams, it gets increasingly more easy to half-ass the competition, and focus on it in the last 2 to 3 months.

  

10 hours ago, Pelotas said:

Couldn't agree more. There needs to be more than just one professional level and the system in 1B is crap as just like PO2 it's just made to "keep the other teams busy". But I'm not saying 1B is crap due to the playoffs themselves, just due to the fact there's only 8 teams because the 16 in 1A want to stay in 1A rather than reorganise to for instance two leagues of 12. That's what happening now again, they'ld rather allow more teams into 1A than face the probability of relegating to 1B. Again you're right, we need to fix 1B to make sure a relegation is not such a big problem, have more teams go up/down each season as you say. At this level I'm not sure we need play-offs indeed, because here there's no Europe to play for, only going up or down but I'm not saying to abolish POs in general, rather think about a serious reform of PO2 & 1B. Personally fo 1B I would create a simple league with say 12 teams (But that's only 22 matches, after season split into top/bottom half keeping points for 10 extra matches?) and have some simple direct promotion/relegation matches between 1A and 1B teams towards the end but indeed no endless playoffs that mean nothing. On the injustice, the example of Lierse a few seasons ago is a good case (I think they had most points over the whole season but ended up second in both periods and thus did not qualify for the promotion playoffs) which indeed shows that this is different from before. But again, if you agree on those rules beforehand, complaing afterwards is childish and different does not equal wrong. Since you draw the parallel with PO1, I'm guessing you refer to the division of points again, as I said, no strong opinion there, can be removed if that helps the "feeling of injustice".

 

I don't think 2 more pro clubs would be an issue. There is always one club or chairman who feels the ambition to try. Often they fail, but who thought 2 years ago Virton would be where they are now? I also don't think it's a big deal to allow a few smaller clubs into the competition. Some of these clubs just do it for fun, they have a talented squad once every 30 years and want to see how far they can go. Chances are they'll get relegated the next year, but there's no harm in that, as long as they aren't forced to spend insane amounts on improvements just to comply to pro football within the first year or two. Two years ago, it was either Lommel or Leuven, that had to be relegated. Imho, neither of those clubs deserve to be in amateur leagues. So making a hard cut at 16+8, still leaves quite a few good clubs vulnerable to dropping down to amateur status (with all of the consequences mentioned earlier).

 

I'm also not a fan of 12+12. What kind of a season will you get then? Again, play-offs taking up half your season? Playing each club 4 times in first division (which is already almost the case with all the play-offs)?

 

Again, this is a stopgap, not a solution to the much bigger underlying problem.

 

PS: it is funny to see Filip Joos, fierce supporter of the play-offs, of changing our league to cater to the big clubs... now not realizing he's arguing against what is happening in Europe (Super League) while what is going on there, is essentially the exact same thing as what he is in favor of on a local level. The second part of the article is hilarious, as it is clear he doesn't realize it himself. https://sporza.be/nl/2019/12/12/filip-joos-over-de-g5-in-de-champions-league/

Edited by Lizhang
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share
Go to topic listing

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...