Our system detected that your browser is blocking advertisements on our site. Please help support FoxesTalk by disabling any kind of ad blocker while browsing this site. Thank you.
Jump to content
 Share
spacemunky

Huge fire London building

By spacemunky, in General Chat

Recommended Posts

leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
48 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Bu those things are all things that might have killed 3-4 people. Having flammable cladding which, it appears, has caused an entire tower block to burn down despite the fire service believing the initial fire was out, is something else entirely. You'd have to be blind not to think blame NEEDS to be apportioned if people have ignored warnings etc. Of course we need the full facts to place that blame properly. 

 

This.

 

The faulty fridge by itself, with everything else functioning as it should, would have taken one or a couple of apartments before being stopped by the fire service.

 

The cladding which allowed the fire to spread to the entire building is where the true culpability lies IMO.

Thracian

Thracian

Posted
Posted
On 2017-6-18 at 14:32, Carl the Llama said:

You really are insufferable at times.  We all remember how happy you were to lay into the Labour council at Rotherham and make it clear that the problem there was a symptom of the existence of left-wingers, asserting how that kind of thing would never happen in a Conservative utopia and ignoring people trying to explain that because it happened in a labour council it doesn't necessarily mean that all left-wingers would have allowed it to happen... yet when a Tory council and a succession of Tory ministers fail to address an issue that leads to scores of deaths you're suddenly Mr. Bipartisan, keen to make us aware that everyone across the spectrum makes errors like this and we would be wrong to seek to hold one single party accountable.  It's astonishing.

 

 

Just as my estimate of the potential number killed is sadly getting nearer, so too it is becoming clear that there are many people who will eventually find the finger of blame or failure pointing at them in relation to the tragedy of Grenfell Towers. Including embers of the all party fire safety and rescue group  referred to here.and the various ministers mentioned. 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40330789

 

There are also entirely non-political factors such as the circumstances surrounding the fridge fire that was believed extinguished and whether than appliance might have been overloaded or been known to be faulty.

 

I'm not seeking to shelter anyone but this sad and sorry event is clearly being used to fan the flames of political disharmony by people with their own agenda  and to compare the situation of what would seems to be a dreadful accident - whatever neglectfulness might have contributed to it in hindsight - with the ignoring/covering up of the serious crimes in Rotherham and other places over a long period of time is indefensible to my mind.

 

Yes, people will rightly have to answer for the most appalling  neglect/misjudgement/irresponsibility/disregard over Grenfell Towers but lets hear the facts first and let's understand that I refuse to believe (at this stage) that anyone deliberately acted in a way that they believed would cost lives for all that they were so badly and clearly mistaken and will rightly have to face the consequences and to live with their own consciences as well. 

 

Furthermore I believe the shameful attitudes that have clearly prevailed over health and safety aspects with regard to high rise housing will be highlighted as widespread across conservative as well as labour administrations and that the lasting legacy of Grenfell Towers will be make sure that lives are never put at risk so irresponsibly in the future. At least I hope so.  

 

For me it highlights something I've mentioned before - that the choices we have for political representatives are often inadequate all across the political spectrum. How some are ever nominated I've no idea. 

 

Recognising fire risk in high rise buildings - and acting on expert advice - wouldn't seem to be difficult especially as events at various places - including the loss of life on occasions - have shown how dangerous neglect can be and it's that disregard that needs correcting not just in Kensington and Chelsea but everywhere else where those dangers have been highlighted.   .                  

 

     

Thracian

Thracian

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

This.

 

The faulty fridge by itself, with everything else functioning as it should, would have taken one or a couple of apartments before being stopped by the fire service.

 

The cladding which allowed the fire to spread to the entire building is where the true culpability lies IMO.

Given clearly evidence concerning the dangers of the cladding, the decision to use it seems extraordinary and will need to be investigated in detail. .   

Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted

The council didn't even need to save money - they're loaded. I remember when I trained as an investigator being on a course with somebody from a London council. It sounded like another world - apparently they rake in millions from parking fines in London and so it was explained to me that they have whole wardrobe departments for their investigators. I assure you this is a world away from the position of other councils!

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/19/kensington-chelsea-council-has-274m-in-reserves-grenfell-tower-budget-surplus

fuchsntf

fuchsntf

Posted
Posted

Before you start to think to put your opinions, on present forum topics like....

Brexit, Elections, or anything associated with ideas on party politics, put this question to yourself,

Where are, what are the political authoritiescdoing about the victims and why is it taking or needing

too much voluntary help.Plus what will be the poltical aftermath on building control in this so called

caring society.....

Council anf government should be hanging their heads in shame...FFS get yourselves organised,

youxwanted and begged for the electorates vote, now go out and support them when they need you,

with services on the ground...

one excuse from any poster, I will tar you with the same incompitent brush...

Modern govt is relying too much on Voluntary services...Austerity !!!  In a pigs eye!!!

Uk hang your fking heads in shame,!!!

  • Like 2
Carl the Llama

Carl the Llama

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, Thracian said:

 

 

Just as my estimate of the potential number killed is sadly getting nearer, so too it is becoming clear that there are many people who will eventually find the finger of blame or failure pointing at them in relation to the tragedy of Grenfell Towers. Including embers of the all party fire safety and rescue group  referred to here.and the various ministers mentioned. 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40330789

Erm did you even read that article?  Nobody's pointing a finger at the All-Party Parliamentary Fire Safety & Rescue Group, they're revealing the letters that group sent to the Department for Communities and Local Government which were serially dismissed but 3 Tory ministers and one Lib Dem minister working for a Tory majority coalition.

 

9 hours ago, Thracian said:

There are also entirely non-political factors such as the circumstances surrounding the fridge fire that was believed extinguished and whether than appliance might have been overloaded or been known to be faulty.   

Completely irrelevant to the decisions made regarding the building that allowed what is otherwise an isolated incident to become a mass tragedy.

 

9 hours ago, Thracian said:

I'm not seeking to shelter anyone but this sad and sorry event is clearly being used to fan the flames of political disharmony by people with their own agenda  and to compare the situation of what would seems to be a dreadful accident - whatever neglectfulness might have contributed to it in hindsight - with the ignoring/covering up of the serious crimes in Rotherham and other places over a long period of time is indefensible to my mind.     

So... it's ok when you blame the entire left-hand side of the political spectrum for the abhorrent failure to deal with a child abuse ring but it's not ok to point out that the council and ministers responsible for failing the residents at Grenfell were by and large representatives of the Tory party?  And I'm committing an indefensible act by highlighting the inconsistencies in your approach to both matters I see.  How dare I try to encourage self-reflection.

 

9 hours ago, Thracian said:

Yes, people will rightly have to answer for the most appalling  neglect/misjudgement/irresponsibility/disregard over Grenfell Towers but lets hear the facts first and let's understand that I refuse to believe (at this stage) that anyone deliberately acted in a way that they believed would cost lives for all that they were so badly and clearly mistaken and will rightly have to face the consequences and to live with their own consciences as well. 

 

Furthermore I believe the shameful attitudes that have clearly prevailed over health and safety aspects with regard to high rise housing will be highlighted as widespread across conservative as well as labour administrations and that the lasting legacy of Grenfell Towers will be make sure that lives are never put at risk so irresponsibly in the future. At least I hope so.  

 

For me it highlights something I've mentioned before - that the choices we have for political representatives are often inadequate all across the political spectrum. How some are ever nominated I've no idea. 

 

Recognising fire risk in high rise buildings - and acting on expert advice - wouldn't seem to be difficult especially as events at various places - including the loss of life on occasions - have shown how dangerous neglect can be and it's that disregard that needs correcting not just in Kensington and Chelsea but everywhere else where those dangers have been highlighted.

If only you were so charitable when the key culprits aren't Tories.

 

Now don't get me wrong I think it's great that you can be so level headed about this disaster.   I sincerely look forward to seeing you demonstrate the same clarity of thought in future when humans with non-Tory political affiliations make massive errors with disastrous consequences.

  • Like 4
Guest Foxin_mad

Guest Foxin_mad

Posted
Posted
On ‎20‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 00:08, toddybad said:

Bu those things are all things that might have killed 3-4 people. Having flammable cladding which, it appears, has caused an entire tower block to burn down despite the fire service believing the initial fire was out, is something else entirely. You'd have to be blind not to think blame NEEDS to be apportioned if people have ignored warnings etc. Of course we need the full facts to place that blame properly. 

Making a habit of agreeing which is scary. But this is spot on.

 

The mud slinging and point scoring needs to stop. We need to properly investigate what happens and give all the support to the survivors and family/friends of those lost.

 

Mistakes could have been made possibly, humans make mistakes all the time, its unfortunate but even the most skilled make mistakes, if this is the case then lesson need to be learnt.

 

The issue is if people have deliberately cut corners, ignored warnings and acted irresponsibly on this building they need to be brought to justice to show this is not acceptable.

 

It seems at present from reading the community page the latter is likely.

 

Another question for me is the suitability of high rise buildings when we only have fire trucks in the UK that can reach half way up the building and none of those are in London. I think in the US they have a truck that had a platform that could reach the top floor. Surely we should have provision for at least one of these?

The Guvnor

The Guvnor

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Foxin_mad said:

Making a habit of agreeing which is scary. But this is spot on.

 

The mud slinging and point scoring needs to stop. We need to properly investigate what happens and give all the support to the survivors and family/friends of those lost.

 

Mistakes could have been made possibly, humans make mistakes all the time, its unfortunate but even the most skilled make mistakes, if this is the case then lesson need to be learnt.

 

The issue is if people have deliberately cut corners, ignored warnings and acted irresponsibly on this building they need to be brought to justice to show this is not acceptable.

 

It seems at present from reading the community page the latter is likely.

 

Another question for me is the suitability of high rise buildings when we only have fire trucks in the UK that can reach half way up the building and none of those are in London. I think in the US they have a truck that had a platform that could reach the top floor. Surely we should have provision for at least one of these?

Let's all hope the legacy of this awful fire is to ensure that all high rise flats have fully protected fire escapes, appropriate fire detection and alarms, sprinkler systems in appropriate areas and fogging systems in each flat, that we don't clad them with materials that burn easily FFS, then we won't be needing ridiculously high aerial platforms which you would struggle to get close enough or on suitable ground for a lot of these types of buildings anyway. 

Everyone deserves the right to feel safe in their homes and there should never be a price on life, unfortunately this recent tragedy suggests there is.

 

Jon the Hat

Jon the Hat

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, MattP said:

All in Tory council areas I imagine. :whistle:

I wonder how many have been refurbished under these ridiculous quasi self governing management committees with 3rd or 4th party contractors managing the building maintenance and refurbishment works.  There is definitely a problem of accountability here.

Bellend Sebastian

Bellend Sebastian

Posted
Posted

I've got a hotpoint freezer. I've already had their tumbledryer taken away.

 

After all the Beko appliance fires, I do find myself wondering is it really that hard to make things that don't go up in flames?

 

Feels like we're living in 1902 or something

Buce

Buce

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

I've got a hotpoint freezer. I've already had their tumbledryer taken away.

 

After all the Beko appliance fires, I do find myself wondering is it really that hard to make things that don't go up in flames?

 

Feels like we're living in 1902 or something

 

They should make everything out of barbeque briquettes - I defy anyone to light one of those..

  • Like 3
  • Popular Post
Turbogre

Turbogre

Posted
  • Popular Post
Posted

If anybody has sat in project site meetings then you can understand why a lesser type of cladding has been used.

Contractors fit what a consultant or client tells them to. I would be very very surprised if the contractor has taken it upon himself to fit that type.

I did a job recently for the NHS and the sprinkler system has been raped of its protection. Why? Because the consultant messed up and ran out of money. I can only advise what the implications are and get everything in writing. I can't to it for free, nobody would.

This will go on for years and in the end it will come down to what speecfication said and "lessons will be learnt for the future". It stinks to be honest, but this is the reality.

I was speaking to our sales director and I asked if any councils had been in touch. The answer was no. He mentioned that he visited the Woolworths Manchester fire, apparently it was going to be legislation that sprinklers would be fitted to all buildings. In the end nothing happened!

Also, the cyanide thing is another tabloid headline. In any fire you get nasties, cyanide could have come off anything and everything.

  • Like 6
Benguin

Benguin

Posted
Posted

If Jeremy Corbyn and the labour party had won a majority government and took the course of action Theresa May has, the left would be singing "hallelujah, finally we have a leader who will serve the people." I don't want to get into politicking but following on from this disaster, Theresa May has acted efficiently and effectively. The left and the media have absolutely vilified her for unjust reasons. If I lost everything, I would not want the Prime Minister giving me a hug, I'd want them to sort it out.

  • Like 1
DJ Barry Hammond

DJ Barry Hammond

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Benguin said:

If Jeremy Corbyn and the labour party had won a majority government and took the course of action Theresa May has, the left would be singing "hallelujah, finally we have a leader who will serve the people." I don't want to get into politicking but following on from this disaster, Theresa May has acted efficiently and effectively. The left and the media have absolutely vilified her for unjust reasons. If I lost everything, I would not want the Prime Minister giving me a hug, I'd want them to sort it out.

 

Errrr... it took her and the cabinet 48 hours and to be led by the press and victims in that direction in order to get where we are.

 

I'll give due to the fact things appear more co-ordinated now, but for me the lack of initial response and decisions made call into question the governments critical thinking.

 

Benguin

Benguin

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Errrr... it took her and the cabinet 48 hours and to be led by the press and victims in that direction in order to get where we are.

 

I'll give due to the fact things appear more co-ordinated now, but for me the lack of initial response and decisions made call into question the governments critical thinking.

 

No it didn't and no it doesn't. That's nonsense.

 

 

DJ Barry Hammond

DJ Barry Hammond

Posted
Posted
23 minutes ago, Benguin said:

No it didn't and no it doesn't. That's nonsense.

 

 

 

They were leaving a national scale disaster for the council and voluntary services to deal with.

 

Thersea May herself has now apologised and clearly stated the initial response wasn't good enough. 

 

There's no debate here!

Benguin

Benguin

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

You are the one talking nonsense:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/17/theresa-may-avoids-questions-on-personal-response-to-grenfell-disaster

 

Really, you just posted a stupid unrelated article about how Theresa May apparently misread the public mood.

 

What I would assume any rational person would want from their government is action. Theresa May set up a line of funding and promised a full inquiry hence action. For a long time now it is the crown that does the public service and the queen popped down to console the victims. The idea that Theresa has failed the people by providing everything the people would expect except a hug is frankly testament to how silly the world is at the moment.

Buce

Buce

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Benguin said:

 

Really, you just posted a stupid unrelated article about how Theresa May apparently misread the public mood.

 

What I would assume any rational person would want from their government is action. Theresa May set up a line of funding and promised a full inquiry hence action. For a long time now it is the crown that does the public service and the queen popped down to console the victims. The idea that Theresa has failed the people by providing everything the people would expect except a hug is frankly testament to how silly the world is at the moment.

 

May met a group of victims, residents, volunteers and community leaders at a church close to the scene of the blaze on Friday, and visited survivors in hospital.

The visits, however, which took place more than 48 hours after the fire broke out, have done little to quell the growing anger over the way she has dealt with the tragedy.

As she left St Clement’s church following a visit lasting less than an hour, the PM faced cries of “coward” and “shame on you”. One woman wept, saying it was because May had declined to speak to anyone outside the meeting.

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
 Share
Go to topic listing

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...