Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[bovril]

7 minutes ago, Webbo said:

 

https://medium.com/@jamie.bartlett/why-the-backfire-effect-is-damaging-political-debate-fa13f6d7d3c3

 

I know I'll be accused of irony for this but there are others on here far worse than me.

 

I think it comes down to having sex. Look at the ranty people on facebook and the like. Older, usually fat man. Women with saggy cheeks and essex facelifts. Not getting laid.

[ajthefox]

The other thing is that peoples political views are only ever going to evolve slowly over time, they're never going to change that quickly because politics isn't that simple.

 

Your opinion might change on certain specific issues but that doesn't necessarily have any impact on your fundamental views of how we should govern.

[Captain...]

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

 

https://medium.com/@jamie.bartlett/why-the-backfire-effect-is-damaging-political-debate-fa13f6d7d3c3

 

I know I'll be accused of irony for this but there are others on here far worse than me.

 

 

It's true, I can't read a post from foxin mad without feeling myself turning into a Corbyn loving Marxist. I'm not really a big fan of Corbyn but the consistent personal attacks throughout his leadership have lead me to defend him on many occasion and as such end up sympathising with him. I wouldn't choose him to be our new leader but at the last election his manifesto was the most appealing. Especially as it was met by the frothing right with calls if taking us back to the 70s, communist, magic money tree. The attacks on him have done as much to increase support as his policies.

[Strokes]

31 minutes ago, Captain... said:

It's true, I can't read a post from foxin mad without feeling myself turning into a Corbyn loving Marxist. I'm not really a big fan of Corbyn but the consistent personal attacks throughout his leadership have lead me to defend him on many occasion and as such end up sympathising with him. I wouldn't choose him to be our new leader but at the last election his manifesto was the most appealing. Especially as it was met by the frothing right with calls if taking us back to the 70s, communist, magic money tree. The attacks on him have done as much to increase support as his policies.

Yeah I'd say it was exactly the same for me, I didn't vote as I felt both viable options were not right. if I hadn't already spoilt my ballot paper by post, I think Toddybad would have pushed me to vote Tory come Election Day.

[Izzy]

4 hours ago, ajthefox said:

You don't half shoot yourself in the foot an awful lot on here.

 

In other news, it's good to see our chancellor's views on gender equality haven't updated with the times.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/15/philip-hammond-in-row-over-even-a-woman-can-drive-a-train-jibe

 

I'm sure many will dismiss this as a throwaway comment but seriously, saying such a thing is indicative of someone who definitely doesn't think men and women are equal.

 

In all my years experience of work and play, I've realised one thing to be true - that there's no such thing as a throwaway comment...

[Strokes]

5 hours ago, ajthefox said:

You don't half shoot yourself in the foot an awful lot on here.

 

In other news, it's good to see our chancellor's views on gender equality haven't updated with the times.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/15/philip-hammond-in-row-over-even-a-woman-can-drive-a-train-jibe

 

I'm sure many will dismiss this as a throwaway comment but seriously, saying such a thing is indicative of someone who definitely doesn't think men and women are equal.

 

 

Ha that's ridiculous!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

like we would ever allow a woman to drive a train 

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Ha that's ridiculous!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

like we would ever allow a woman to drive a train 

 

Don't be too sure, mate.

 

Someone has to keep the cab clean..

[Strokes]

4 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Don't be too sure, mate.

 

Someone has to keep the cab clean..

This is a blatant ploy to de-rail the thread, I'm on to you @ajthefox.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Webbo said:

 

https://medium.com/@jamie.bartlett/why-the-backfire-effect-is-damaging-political-debate-fa13f6d7d3c3

 

I know I'll be accused of irony for this but there are others on here far worse than me.

 

 

Do you know what Webbo, that's a good post. I think quite a few of us, on both sides, lose sight of this sometimes.

 

3 hours ago, Webbo said:

I don't call people scum.

Yeah, bit embarrassed about that post tbh. For what it's worth, I've not been in a great place last few weeks. Apologies for being a right nob sometimes. 

Edited 15 July 2017 by Guest

[Buce]

21 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Do you know what Webbo, that's a good post. I think quite a few of us, on both sides, lose sight of this sometimes.

 

Yeah, bit embarrassed about that post tbh. For what it's worth, I've not been in a great place last few weeks. Apologies for being a right nob sometimes. 

 

No worries - it's part of the Terms and Conditions.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

4 hours ago, Webbo said:

 

https://medium.com/@jamie.bartlett/why-the-backfire-effect-is-damaging-political-debate-fa13f6d7d3c3

 

I know I'll be accused of irony for this but there are others on here far worse than me.

 

 

Irony?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

Ha that's ridiculous!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

like we would ever allow a woman to drive a train 

 

It happened once before... never again!

[MPH]

Slight change of pace with this one... the odds for next Dr Who... got to be worth a couple of quid on corbyn, surely?

 

 

[davieG]

Philip Hammond is at the centre of a furious row with his own Cabinet colleagues after it was claimed he told them public sector workers were overpaid.

Advertisement

According to The Sunday Times, at last Tuesday's meeting the Chancellor refused to lift the controversial 1% cap on wages for public sector workers because they receive bigger pensions.

"Public sector workers are overpaid when you take into account pensions," he is reported to have said, before saying train drivers were "ludicrously overpaid".

His comments have emerged after senior Tories called for a rethink on the public sector pay cap, claiming it badly damaged the Conservatives in last month's general election.

Unions claim more than five million public sector workers have seen their incomes fall in real terms over the last seven years.

A Treasury spokesman told Sky News: "We have chosen to restrain pay to keep more public-sector jobs."

He added: "The Chancellor was describing to cabinet the 10% public sector pay premium. He didn't say public sector workers were overpaid."

Image:Prison officers' wages are down more than £3,800 a year compared with seven years ago, says TUC

But The Sunday Times quotes a "Cabinet source" saying: "Philip used a fairly inflammatory phrase. He said they were overpaid.

Advertisement

"That caused some general astonishment. His overall tone was that we shouldn't give them more cash because they are overpaid. Later in the meeting both Boris Johnson and the PM said we should not say public sector workers are overpaid."

The row is likely to - and is no doubt intended to - damage Mr Hammond's chances of becoming Prime Minister if Theresa May stands down later this year.

Such a potentially explosive claim from inside the Cabinet room suggests ministers plotting ahead of a leadership are now in a state of permanent civil war and that discipline has broken down.

The Sunday Times report came after it was reported 24 hours earlier by The Sun that the Chancellor also made sexist comments about women train drivers at the same Cabinet meeting on Tuesday.

Image:Southern Rail is in a dispute with drivers over pay

Ministers will come under fresh pressure to lift the pay cap this week when the TUC stages a protest in Westminster.

The TUC calculates the real-terms wages of prison officers, paramedics and NHS dieticians are all down more than £3,800 a year compared with seven years ago. Firefighters are down nearly £2,900 and teachers £2,500.

Whether or not he used the words "ludicrously overpaid", Mr Hammond was no doubt reflecting, however, that train drivers on Southern Rail have voted to strike over pay despite being offered a 23.8% rise over four years to £60,683 for a four-day week.

 

Sunday Times

[davieG]

Election intimidation at 'tipping point', warns watchdog

 

 

 

The level of personal abuse that election candidates are facing has reached a "tipping point", the head of the standards watchdog has warned.

Lord Bew, whose committee is conducting an inquiry into intimidation during the recent campaign, told the BBC it was a "dangerous moment" for UK politics.

He said he would consider all options, including recommending new laws, but warned this was unlikely to end abuse.

MPs have blamed hard-left and far-right groups and the rise of social media.

During a parliamentary debate on Wednesday, MPs from all parties spoke about the harassment they and their staff had receivedboth in person and online, including death threats, rape threats and anti-Semitic abuse.

Theresa May has asked Lord Bew, who chairs the Committee on Standards in Public Life, to look into what went on during the election campaign and whether existing laws need to be strengthened to protect candidates in future.

'Nasty tinge'

In an interview with BBC Radio 4's Westminster Hour, Lord Bew said there was a problem in public life that had not been seen before.

"We are in a bad moment and we have to respond to it," he said. "We cannot afford to lose people of quality in our public life and we may be approaching a tipping point."

Conservative MPs say Jeremy Corbyn has been to slow condemn the actions of left-wing activists, including members of the Momentum pressure group, who they claim have been targeting them as well some Labour MPs. Momentum has denied any involvement whatsoever.

Lord Bew said it was "absolutely clear" that the Labour leadership believed there was no place for threats or fear in politics but that political leaders, as a whole, needed to be more outspoken on the issue.

"Above all, we do need leadership from Parliament itself on this point. We have reached a point where this is not a sermon. This has got to be said with some sharpness."

The committee, he added, was "in listening mode" and would not rule out anything at this stage.

"It's perfectly obvious that the ways in which the culture of civility in this country has been eroded has come from a number of different sources.

"And we need to see if we can find ways of getting a tone in our public debate which is still vigorous but avoids that tinge of nastiness and hatred which has definitely entered into things in more recent times."

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, davieG said:

Philip Hammond is at the centre of a furious row with his own Cabinet colleagues after it was claimed he told them public sector workers were overpaid.

Advertisement

According to The Sunday Times, at last Tuesday's meeting the Chancellor refused to lift the controversial 1% cap on wages for public sector workers because they receive bigger pensions.

"Public sector workers are overpaid when you take into account pensions," he is reported to have said, before saying train drivers were "ludicrously overpaid".

His comments have emerged after senior Tories called for a rethink on the public sector pay cap, claiming it badly damaged the Conservatives in last month's general election.

Unions claim more than five million public sector workers have seen their incomes fall in real terms over the last seven years.

A Treasury spokesman told Sky News: "We have chosen to restrain pay to keep more public-sector jobs."

He added: "The Chancellor was describing to cabinet the 10% public sector pay premium. He didn't say public sector workers were overpaid."

Image:Prison officers' wages are down more than £3,800 a year compared with seven years ago, says TUC

But The Sunday Times quotes a "Cabinet source" saying: "Philip used a fairly inflammatory phrase. He said they were overpaid.

Advertisement

"That caused some general astonishment. His overall tone was that we shouldn't give them more cash because they are overpaid. Later in the meeting both Boris Johnson and the PM said we should not say public sector workers are overpaid."

The row is likely to - and is no doubt intended to - damage Mr Hammond's chances of becoming Prime Minister if Theresa May stands down later this year.

Such a potentially explosive claim from inside the Cabinet room suggests ministers plotting ahead of a leadership are now in a state of permanent civil war and that discipline has broken down.

The Sunday Times report came after it was reported 24 hours earlier by The Sun that the Chancellor also made sexist comments about women train drivers at the same Cabinet meeting on Tuesday.

Image:Southern Rail is in a dispute with drivers over pay

Ministers will come under fresh pressure to lift the pay cap this week when the TUC stages a protest in Westminster.

The TUC calculates the real-terms wages of prison officers, paramedics and NHS dieticians are all down more than £3,800 a year compared with seven years ago. Firefighters are down nearly £2,900 and teachers £2,500.

Whether or not he used the words "ludicrously overpaid", Mr Hammond was no doubt reflecting, however, that train drivers on Southern Rail have voted to strike over pay despite being offered a 23.8% rise over four years to £60,683 for a four-day week.

 

Sunday Times

Whilst i predictably don't agree about public sector workers being overpaid in general, £60k for a train driver is utterly ridiculous.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

@davieG

 

Interesting the Times has suggested the Southern Train Drivers are striking over pay, given that was the line given by the Conservative minister on the Daily Politics last week.

 

They also, however, quote the bit of this dispute that makes you wonder... and that is the offer of a 23.8% pay rise over 4-years for a 4-day week... because in my experience, companies don't readily come out and offer you almost 25% pay rises for nothing.

 

For a union as a whole to reject what appears tantamount to a bribe, there has to be something seriously wrong with the other parts of the offer, it can't be just purely about 'pay'.

[Facecloth]

7 hours ago, MPH said:

Slight change of pace with this one... the odds for next Dr Who... got to be worth a couple of quid on corbyn, surely?

 

 

I love the fact that that's still got shorter odds than our title win  

[Buce]

 

Former head of Civil Service warns of Brexit chaos:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/15/brexit-disaster-theresa-may-gus-o-donnell-civil-service

 

Top former civil servants have warned Theresa May that squabbling cabinet ministers, unrealistic expectations and an overburdened administration risk derailing her hopes of a smooth Brexit.

 

May faces renewed calls to compromise or face the prospect of crashing out of the European Union. On the eve of the next round of Brexit talks, the prime minister is under pressure to show she is willing to alter key aspects of her EU exit plans, which no longer command majority support in parliament.

 

In a warning over the scale of the challenge now facing the government, Lord O’Donnell, the former cabinet secretary, writes in the Observer that Britain is in for a “rough ride” unless cabinet ministers unite and back a long transition deal to soften the impact of Brexit.

“The EU has clear negotiating guidelines, while it appears that cabinet members haven’t yet finished negotiating with each other, never mind the EU,” the crossbench peer warns. He calls on ministers to “start being honest about the complexity of the challenge”.

“There is no chance all the details will be hammered out in 20 months,” he warns. “We will need a long transition phase and the time needed does not diminish by pretending that this phase is just about ‘implementing’ agreed policies as they will not all be agreed.”

 

Sir Nigel Sheinwald, Britain’s former ambassador to the EU, told the Observer that there was now a “one-in-three” chance of Brexit talks collapsing unless the UK drastically reset its plans. He warned that the government still appeared to be “defending a set of propositions that feel tired and totally unrealistic and removed from the realities of these negotiations”. He said a serious offer on future payments was needed, as well as support for a “very substantial transition period” that was similar to Britain’s current EU links.

“I think [the negotiations] could break down quite quickly if, after the autumn, our position on these fundamental issues – the financial settlement, and then the fundamentals of our future relationship – don’t move more in the direction of common sense and economic sense,” he said.

“I don’t think it’s the most likely option, but I think there’s a one-in-three chance at least that that’s the way it will go. And I would say, where we are today, it feels to me that it is at least something like that. And that’s a very sizeable risk.”

 

Tony Blair also intervened on Saturday to suggest that EU leaders may be prepared to alter the bloc’s free movement rules to keep Britain inside the single market. He said senior EU figures had indicated they could be flexible, but that Britain had to be willing to compromise.

A spokeswoman for the Department for Exiting the European Union (DExEU) defended the government’s plans. “Our aim is to build a deep and special partnership with the European Union, as the EU’s closest friend and neighbour,” she said. “As we negotiate to leave the EU, we are seeking the best possible deal for the UK, one that gives citizens and businesses as much certainty as possible.”

The interventions come after a week in which Amyas Morse, head of Britain’s public spending watchdog, warned a lack of leadership meant the government’s response to Brexit risked falling apart “like a chocolate orange”.

While May has survived the immediate threat to her premiership in the wake of the disastrous election result, Whitehall insiders and some ministers believe she is entering a crucial period between now and the autumn in which she will have to show some willingness to modify her Brexit plans.

 

An Opinium poll for the Observer found that most voters (57%) believe May should resign before the next general election or earlier. Her net approval ratings remain dire, with 51% disapproving of the way she is handling her job and only 30% approving. Overall, Labour has a lead of two points over the Tories.

O’Donnell, who served as Britain’s senior civil servant under Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and David Cameron, said that Whitehall needed a boost in resources to meet the challenge ahead. “The Treasury has allocated over £400m for extra staff and knows that much more will be needed,” he writes.

Despite reassurances from the government, there are still concerns in the scientific community over the plan to leave Euratom. Writing in the Observer on Sunday, Ian Chapman, chief executive of the UK Atomic Energy Authority, warns the move must not hit Britain’s reputation as a world leader in nuclear science.

“It is imperative that we rapidly find a solution for a continued relationship with Euratom,” he writes. “One of the options available is an association agreement with the organisation – a bespoke arrangement where the UK could remain inside Euratom with certain conditions and constraints.”

Meanwhile David Isaac, chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, suggested that there would be a surge in cases brought under the Human Rights Act, which guarantees a person’s entitlement to privacy and a family life. While the government has guaranteed many of the rights for EU citizens living in the UK post-Brexit, some could be lost, including being permitted to bring in family members, such as spouses or elderly relatives.

 

“[This] should not be used as a bargaining chip in these negotiations,” Isaac said. “The government must respect the human rights of EU nationals – not just because they could face a mountain of legal challenges if they don’t, but because it’s the correct thing to do.”

Martha Spurrier, director of the human rights group Liberty, said: “There will be interesting legal arguments about that and whether it’s legally fair to say to someone, ‘well the day before Brexit you had these rights and now an executive decision has been taken and the day after it you no longer have [them], which means you might be deported’. There will be EU citizens who find themselves in immigration detention, facing the same brutal enforcement mechanisms that the government inflicts on other migrants.”

A Home Office spokesman said the department had “made it explicitly clear that no EU citizen currently in the UK lawfully will be asked to leave at the point we leave the EU”.

“In fact, we will allow up to two years for people to regularise their status,” the spokesman said. “We look forward to discussing this in the next round of negotiations as we pursue an agreement on this important issue as soon as possible.”

[Captain...]

3 hours ago, davieG said:

senior Tories called for a rethink on the public sector pay cap, claiming it badly damaged the Conservatives in last month's general election.

This is the kind of thing really pisses me off, it's not that public services are being damaged, nor that nurses are being forced to use food bins, nor that teachers are leaving in droves. No they might do something about the public sector pay cap because it will help their chances of staying in power!

 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

18 minutes ago, Captain... said:

This is the kind of thing really pisses me off, it's not that public services are being damaged, nor that nurses are being forced to use food bins, nor that teachers are leaving in droves. No they might do something about the public sector pay cap because it will help their chances of staying in power!

 

 

Politics has been treated as a well paid game by many MP's in Parliament for a long time now. 

[Strokes]

40 minutes ago, Captain... said:

This is the kind of thing really pisses me off, it's not that public services are being damaged, nor that nurses are being forced to use food bins, nor that teachers are leaving in droves. No they might do something about the public sector pay cap because it will help their chances of staying in power!

 

No nurse should be using food banks (I assume that what you mean by bins?) although they aren't paid enough for what they do, they're salary is way above poverty level. So if there are individual stories of nurses using FBs, it might be best to examine in more detail.

Edited 16 July 2017 by Strokes

[The Doctor]

Casting further afield for some proper insanity.

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2140747-laws-of-mathematics-dont-apply-here-says-australian-pm/

 

"the laws of mathematics are commendable, but the only law that matters is the law of Australia". Now that's what I call sovreignity - domestic laws overriding the basic laws of reality.

[Guest]

Overpaid public sector? Philip Hammond’s divisive talk is no longer working

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/16/overpaid-public-sector-philip-hammond-chancellor

[Alf Bentley]

Analysis of Brexit prospects by Martin Wolf, Chief Economics Commentator for the the FT - sounds dire: https://www.ft.com/content/bf0025aa-6720-11e7-8526-7b38dcaef614