Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Dr The Singh]

1 minute ago, Carl the Llama said:

You do understand that they are in a monetary union with other states though, right?  And you understand that membership of such a union requires a certain level of fiscal policy centralisation and adherence to pre-defined norms (otherwise you end up with another Greece scenario)?

Maybe they can learn from us and do a Itaexit?

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

Maybe they can learn from us and do a Itaexit?

Exitaly

[Carl the Llama]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Yes.

So do you understand why, given those stipulations, they can't be allowed to do whatever they like with their budget when it poses a potential risk to the rest of their monetary union?

 

5 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

Maybe they can learn from us and do a Itaexit?

Sure, but that's a broader issue.  If you feel that the EU is a bad idea that's one thing, but I don't see how anyone can seriously argue that Italy's government are justified on this particular matter.  If it goes wrong they won't be the only ones footing the bill so that's why the commission has to respond to their plans.  Even if they do vote to leave they'll still need to have completed their departure from the monetary union before they can start implementing fiscal policy at will.

[Strokes]

9 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

So do you understand why, given those stipulations, they can't be allowed to do whatever they like with their budget when it poses a potential risk to the rest of their monetary union?

 

No I don’t, National sovereignty and democracy should rule supreme. The people and government of Italy have chosen a different way and the EU should have measures in place to facilitate democracy, not stand defiantly against it. They’ve had enough warnings that the monetary system is not working in all countries and is hampering Italy. 

Hopefully Italy go back to the lira, otherwise the will just get hamstrung like Greece.

[Carl the Llama]

18 minutes ago, Strokes said:

No I don’t, National sovereignty and democracy should rule supreme. The people and government of Italy have chosen a different way and the EU should have measures in place to facilitate democracy, not stand defiantly against it. They’ve had enough warnings that the monetary system is not working in all countries and is hampering Italy. 

Hopefully Italy go back to the lira, otherwise the will just get hamstrung like Greece.

Yes, Italy will have to go back to the lira and reopen their own central bank if they want free reign over budgetary and monetary policy.  What measures do you propose the EU should have in place?  A system where member states can jump in and out of the Eurozone at will and with complete disregard for the impact it has on the other members?

 

I'll ask again:  Why is the commission wrong to respond to Italy trying to force their way forward with a policy that goes against the rules of the monetary union and jeopardises it?  Should the Welsh government be allowed to spend what it likes even if it imposes debt on the rest of the UK?

Edited 23 October 2018 by Carl the Llama

[urban.spaceman]

Can’t believe none of you have said Italeave yet. 

 

Shameful. 

[Carl the Llama]

6 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Can’t believe none of you have said Italeave yet. 

 

Shameful. 

Romeain. 

[Buce]

8 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

Can’t believe none of you have said Italeave yet. 

 

Shameful. 

 

Too easy. 

 

In fact, a Pisa piss. 

[bovril]

The EU cannoli do so much. 

[Alf Bentley]

9 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

Can’t believe none of you have said Italeave yet. 

 

Shameful. 

 

Instead of "I love EU" on placards....... "EU Pizza Off"?

[Guest MattP]

12 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

It sounds like the commission is asking them to revise their budget to prevent them accruing further debt, breaking previous agreements in the process.  Why are they wrong?

Because it should be up to Italians how their own government they elect spends it's money, this is the fundamantal problem with the European Union and a single monetary union, national decisions will be taken by people who aren't even part of that nation.

Of course the only way this can be solved is by Italy having a referendum on it's membership of the bloc, then they can make the decision as to whether they want their public spending decided by the people they elect or people they haven't in a different country.

 

11 hours ago, Innovindil said:

"It is tempting to try and cure debt with more debt. At some point, the debt weighs too heavy... you end up having no freedom at all."

 

Potentially my new favourite quote of all time. 

I loved the quote from the deputy PM.

"This is the first budget for a decade that the European Union has rejected from Italy, which shouldn't come as a complete shock as it's the first budget in that time that has been written in Rome rather than Brussels"

[Carl the Llama]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Because it should be up to Italians how their own government they elect spends it's money, this is the fundamantal problem with the European Union and a single monetary union, national decisions will be taken by people who aren't even part of that nation.

Of course the only way this can be solved is by Italy having a referendum on it's membership of the bloc, then they can make the decision as to whether they want their public spending decided by the people they elect or people they haven't in a different country.

 

I loved the quote from the deputy PM.

"This is the first budget for a decade that the European Union has rejected from Italy, which shouldn't come as a complete shock as it's the first budget in that time that has been written in Rome rather than Brussels"

So you don't agree with the existence of a monetary union, that's a separate issue. Given that Italy are in one though, why are the commission wrong here? I'm not going to get a straight answer am I?

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

So you don't agree with the existence of a monetary union, that's a separate issue. Given that Italy are in one though, why are the commission wrong here? I'm not going to get a straight answer am I?

They need to show more flexibility because the problems that have led Italy to this route have largely been caused by the decisions of the commission and the single currency, It's just the fault of Italian government for joining this.

But like I say, the only way this is going to be resolved is with a referendum where the result is accepted. Then the people can decide who spends their money.

[Strokes]

12 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

Yes, Italy will have to go back to the lira and reopen their own central bank if they want free reign over budgetary and monetary policy.  What measures do you propose the EU should have in place?  A system where member states can jump in and out of the Eurozone at will and with complete disregard for the impact it has on the other members?

 

I'll ask again:  Why is the commission wrong to respond to Italy trying to force their way forward with a policy that goes against the rules of the monetary union and jeopardises it?  Should the Welsh government be allowed to spend what it likes even if it imposes debt on the rest of the UK?

Having a strong currency isn’t a good benefit to all the countries in the union, the flexibility to either let Italy make investments or to have made the investments themselves. It’s all tailored for Germany and nothing will get in the way.

Wales is not an independent sovereign nation.

[urban.spaceman]

3 hours ago, Strokes said:

Having a strong currency isn’t a good benefit to all the countries in the union, the flexibility to either let Italy make investments or to have made the investments themselves. It’s all tailored for Germany and nothing will get in the way.

Wales is not an independent sovereign nation.

Racist.

[lifted*fox]

 

 

 

 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

16 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

Racist.

This

[Nalis]

As a Remainer, this pretty much sums up my views on Brexit and the pointless lib met elite march last weekend:

 

The Brexiters are right – Remain learned nothing from the referendum campaign

 

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/columnists/brexit-peoples-vote-remainers-learned-nothing/amp/

[Guest MattP]

Rumour going around on Twitter John McDonnell has been beat up - probably bollocks.

[Guest MattP]

49 minutes ago, Nalis said:

As a Remainer, this pretty much sums up my views on Brexit and the pointless lib met elite march last weekend:

 

The Brexiters are right – Remain learned nothing from the referendum campaign

 

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/columnists/brexit-peoples-vote-remainers-learned-nothing/amp/

The fact they are still arguing to Remain on economics in 2018 is unbelievable. 

 

For the 100th time to them - if everyone thought the vote was about that, Remain would have won with a landslide. For so many of the other 52% it was very little to do with that.

[Alf Bentley]

21 minutes ago, MattP said:

Rumour going around on Twitter John McDonnell has been beat up - probably bollocks.

 

Tripped over fly-tipped rubbish in dark, returning from a Labour meeting, he reckons: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/25/john-mcdonnell-suffers-black-eye-tripping-fly-tipped-furniture/

 

Bookies' odds:

1-4: Got pissed with the comrades

2-1: Vigorous political debate with John Mann MP

5-1: Yesterday's House of Lords meeting with Tommy Robinson got out of hand (Tommy was posing with a statue of Richard the Lionheart, what a card!)

10-1: Beaten up by Mrs. McDonnell for flirting with Gloria de Piero

20-1: Beaten up by Len McCluskey

50-1: Beaten up by JRM & Boris

100-1: Beaten up by Chuka Umunna & Jess Phillips

[Alf Bentley]

Unlike Michael Fabricant MP to emerge with a witty one-liner re. Theresa's appearance before the 1922 Committee....

 

“It wasn’t Daniella in the lions’ den, it was a petting zoo,” Michael Fabricant, the former Tory whip told journalists outside the meeting.

[Guest MattP]

16 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

Unlike Michael Fabricant MP to emerge with a witty one-liner re. Theresa's appearance before the 1922 Committee....

 

“It wasn’t Daniella in the lions’ den, it was a petting zoo,” Michael Fabricant, the former Tory whip told journalists outside the meeting.

Aside from Bridgen and Dorries very few of these people seem to go public with how brutal they want to be with May, I'm always wondering why the journalists are getting so excited. Almost every time these quotes are always attributed to a "anonymous source" and I'm starting to wonder just how much garbage even the broadsheet papers are now making up. It's just not feasible to change the Prime Minister at this point in time.

As an aside the "bring your noose" line did make me laugh as it was exactly my head of year said to me once when I did somethingat school

[Alf Bentley]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

Aside from Bridgen and Dorries very few of these people seem to go public with how brutal they want to be with May, I'm always wondering why the journalists are getting so excited. Almost every time these quotes are always attributed to a "anonymous source" and I'm starting to wonder just how much garbage even the broadsheet papers are now making up. It's just not feasible to change the Prime Minister at this point in time.

As an aside the "bring your noose" line did make me laugh as it was exactly my head of year said to me once when I did somethingat school

 

I'm wondering now if May might survive at least until Brexit in March (always assuming we don't end up with another referendum - election more unlikely while May still leader, I presume).

 

Under party rules, I understand that there can only be one leadership challenge per year. Thus, her Tory opponents will presumably only try to depose her when they think they've got a good chance of succeeding. Otherwise, they risk being lumbered with her for at least another year.

 

If they don't go for it soon, I imagine the next opportunity will be when negotiations end. If any deal is really unpopular among Tory MPs, she might be vulnerable. But that could be December or later, when timing would be a problem: 

- Firstly, the public could take a dim view of the Tories indulging in a leadership contest at a critical moment for the nation - and the party would be aware of that risk.

- Secondly, they'd need to be sure that it would be a quick handover, not a protracted contest. Weeks of hustings, internal scheming and membership votes would be a nightmare if Brexit was just round the corner, economic ructions ongoing, demos in the streets etc. Yet, given internal party divisions, is there any prospect of them agreeing on a single candidate? Maybe a Leave-leaning pragmatist like Sajid Javid? Would be a risk, though.

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

I'm wondering now if May might survive at least until Brexit in March (always assuming we don't end up with another referendum - election more unlikely while May still leader, I presume).

 

Under party rules, I understand that there can only be one leadership challenge per year. Thus, her Tory opponents will presumably only try to depose her when they think they've got a good chance of succeeding. Otherwise, they risk being lumbered with her for at least another year.

This is the key, no one as yet thinks they do have the numbers to do it so what is even the point? The days of the men in grey suits are long gone, she's openly said she'll be in a leadership contest even if there is a NC vote so we would be talking a protracted length of time.

She's certainly a fighter, I don't think many in politics could still be standing after what she has gone through.