Safe standing - time to act

[Claridge]

1 hour ago, davieG said:

The cause of over crowded stands was probably the police, the cause of so many deaths was the fencing designed to keep fans off the pitch. Put there because of previous fan pitch invasions and mass fighting on those pitches.

It was probably thousands of people turning up without tickets as well. The ground was full and there were thousands outside. Police should of realised this would happen, but Liverpool fans without tickets were to blame as well. 

[purpleronnie]

2 minutes ago, Claridge said:

It was probably thousands of people turning up without tickets as well. The ground was full and there were thousands outside. Police should of realised this would happen, but Liverpool fans without tickets were to blame as well. 

People are still blaming Liverpool fans.

 

FFS no wonder we still get treated like crap.

 

For the last time Liverpool fans were completely exonerated.

[mad biker]

6 minutes ago, purpleronnie said:

People are still blaming Liverpool fans.

 

FFS no wonder we still get treated like crap.

 

For the last time Liverpool fans were completely exonerated.

Of course they were, nothing is EVER their fault !

[SemperEadem]

Its a shame the dialogue falls into this trap every single time.

Be the bigger bloke ffs.

[mad biker]

Yeah  "every single time" being the relevant phrase !

[Claridge]

1 hour ago, purpleronnie said:

People are still blaming Liverpool fans.

 

FFS no wonder we still get treated like crap.

 

For the last time Liverpool fans were completely exonerated.

I went to a few Liverpool games and got in without tickets. Forest away was one, not proud of it, but clubs with massive away followings like Liverpool did it all the time. Literally climbed the fences outside at forest. Outside Hillsborough there were thousands of people without tickets, I suppose you could claim that had nothing to do with what happened. I wasn’t there but I know friends who were

[volpeazzurro]

7 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

All clubs know how standing "pans out" now because, in many cases, thousands do it in seated areas at their games every single week - and if clubs don't realise that then they're being absolutely negligent of what's been going on inside their own stadia for years and years.

 

The installation of a barrier in front of each seat is not going to suddenly turn English fans into Galatasaray at their worst, it just means it'll make the way they prefer to watch the match much safer.

I'm not personally against it first and foremost, just suggesting reasons why it probably hasn't happened. There has to be a reason for the reluctance. 

[purpleronnie]

9 hours ago, Claridge said:

I went to a few Liverpool games and got in without tickets. Forest away was one, not proud of it, but clubs with massive away followings like Liverpool did it all the time. Literally climbed the fences outside at forest. Outside Hillsborough there were thousands of people without tickets, I suppose you could claim that had nothing to do with what happened. I wasn’t there but I know friends who were

So you think you know more than the independent report? That exonerated Liverpool fans of any blame?

 

I would read the report.

[MarriedaLeicesterGirl]

17 hours ago, GlennyFox55 said:

Safe Standing and terraces are completely different things, safe standing is actually safer than the current seated format as people who have sat down for the game can still fall into those infront when celebrating etc.

 

As an American, terraces just seem weird (we went for bleachers, partly due to the longer games) and a little terrifying. 

 

Rail seating just doesn't, both on the design and also because it will always be "ticket to place" even if it moved to 1.5-1 ratio. 

 

(I have no desire to stand, being fat and lazy, but think there should be a section for those that do.)

[Scanchez]

11 hours ago, mad biker said:

Of course they were, nothing is EVER their fault !

Urrrrrggh

 

DATS A GUD ONE

[kingkisnorbo]

Interesting reading accounts from myriad supporters groups highlighting the unmitigated success of safe standing being implemented at their grounds. But apparently it’s a bad idea. 

[Mike the Metal Ed]

21 hours ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

I think there has been lots of subsequent findings and reports into said incident. So that doesn't really stick.

 

Safe standing is very much a prevention. Thousands of people stand in every ground but the facilities are not there to allow them to do this safely. So the status quo is an issue. I am baffled by how many people are unable to see this.

 

Why is it OK for people to stand at rugby, at concerts (festivals being extremely dangerous) and all these other sports/events? None of those are safe standing, they are classic crowd breakers. I have been to many concerts and there have been times when I was unable to move and was at the mercy of the crowd movement as a whole (it's pretty scary).

 

A matchday experience should be inclusive for all people and right now, it isn't.

People died in a crush at Monsters of Rock 1988 rushing to see Guns N' Roses. As a result the organisers reduced the capacity. Too many people forced into too little space, same issue.

 

They didn't force every festival to be held in seated indoor arenas for the rest of time, nor start a huge smear campaign to blame the concertgoers.

[baldeagle]

Think the title of this thread needs changing as it says time to act yet was started in 2017 😂

[Golden Fox]

On 15/05/2018 at 22:29, Golden Fox said:

The Taylor report which was used as the basis of the legislation is available for anyone to read at:

http://www.epcollege.com/EPC/media/MediaLibrary/Knowledge Hub Documents/F Inquiry Reports/Hillsborough-Taylor-Report.pdf?ext=http://www.epcollege.com/EPC/media/MediaLibrary/Knowledge Hub Documents/F Inquiry Reports/Hillsborough-Taylor-Report.pdf?

 

Having read through as to why the recommendation was for all-seater stadiums, the reasons for this were:

1)  Supporters will not be in close physical contact with those around them and will not be jostled or moved about by swaying or surging. The seated spectator is not subject to pressure of numbers behind or around him during the match.

2) Seating has distinct advantages in achieving crowd control. With the assistance of CCTV the police can immediately zoom in with a camera and pinpoint the seats occupied by the trouble-makers. Numbered tickets matching numbered seats mean those monitoring numbers will know exactly how many are there without having to count them in or assess the density by visual impression.

3) Sitting for the duration of the match is more comfortable than standing.

 

Comfort is a personal choice, so this aside, I'd fully agree with the report that the main 2 reasons as to why terraces were dangerous in the 80s were that there could be big movements back and forward crushing people, and that more people could enter the stand (or a section of the stand) than were ticketed to and this would not be identified as people didn't have an allocated space.

 

Both of these factors are demonstrably answered by the rail seats: they provide barriers in front and behind to give personal space and avoid surges. They give people an individual space & will show if someone is in the wrong place. (Plus, the technology involved in ticketing is a world away from when the report was written).

 

Unfortunately, our politicians fear being on the end of a backlash if they stick their necks out to support standing, and their reputations are more important to than facts, so it is not a risk I can see any of them taking. 

 

(Although I did sign the petition, so at least it helps the possibility of it getting traction).

 

 

Yes - I believe the 3 year rule still applies to them. However, I understand that rail seats can be locked into the seat position to satisfy the requirement of all-seater stadia: which I believe is what is done for rail seats in the Champions League.

 

On 16/05/2018 at 09:38, Golden Fox said:

One thing I meant to highlight in my post, was that on reading through the causes of the Hillsborough disaster, standing was not listed anywhere as a cause. The main causes were ticketing issues, high spiked fences and poor policing, but standing was not among these. This is why I was interested as to why all-seater stadia was a recommendation of the scheme. I think the ticketing issue was by far and away the main driver behind this recommendation, was to do with numbers entering the ground, reducing hooliganism also an alternative measure to reduce pitch invasions which would enable the high spiked fences to be removed. It always frustrates me that in any conversation on standing, the media always needs to reference Hillsborough whereas it was not a cause, and I think busting this myth with the politicians is the key to this whole debate.

Feels like we're stuck in a timewarp - it was 4 1/2 years ago on this very thread I read the relevant bits of the Taylor report & linked to it (although the link doesn't seem to work now)!

 

And as I noted, the Taylor report didn't even mention standing as a cause of Hillsborough! Although it did then put in all-seater stadiums as recommendation: I think this recommendation was more that given technology of the time, it would have been immediately apparent if too many people have got into an area as they wouldn't have seats to sit on - something that wasn't as obvious with standing. Current technology renders that reason irrelevant.

 

And the point for @David Hankey (even though you look to be being argumentative for the sake of it...) its not just about some people preferring to stand instead of sit. Trying to watch Leicester at the moment, its difficult to get tickets and its expensive. If standing gives more capacity and is cheaper (certainly, back in the day, standing was much cheaper and was about affordability), then they would be the real big wins for introducing it...

[Claridge]

12 hours ago, purpleronnie said:

So you think you know more than the independent report? That exonerated Liverpool fans of any blame?

 

I would read the report.

It was a terrible event,but there were thousands there without tickets trying to gain entry and a massive crush happened. Doesn’t really matter who was to blame as long as lessons were learnt to stop it happening again. Anyone who went to matches in the 80s knows what football was like then. Anyone who didn’t has absolutely no idea

[purpleronnie]

6 minutes ago, Claridge said:

It was a terrible event,but there were thousands there without tickets trying to gain entry and a massive crush happened. Doesn’t really matter who was to blame as long as lessons were learnt to stop it happening again. Anyone who went to matches in the 80s knows what football was like then. Anyone who didn’t has absolutely no idea

It's very important who was to blame and we need to stop blaming Liverpool fans when the fans have been exonerated.

[Claridge]

12 minutes ago, purpleronnie said:

It's very important who was to blame and we need to stop blaming Liverpool fans when the fans have been exonerated.

I went to Liverpool away games at the time, I’m pretty sure what happened, but if someone has exonerated them them that’s fine, it was a terrible event that hindsight could of prevented, but with any disaster unfortunately it’s too late

[Mr Weller 2]

On 27/10/2022 at 08:36, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Don't come in the thread then? 

So the thread is just for people who agree? Isn’t that what they call cancel culture?

[Mr Weller 2]

On 27/10/2022 at 13:22, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Let's get rid of corporate seating because only a minority use that. Let's get rid of catering at the ground too because most people don't eat at the ground so it must not be needed. Whilst we're at it let's bin off the disabled sections as they're only used by a small number. Those betting stands in the concourse can go as well because most people don't bet. Bin off all the stuff for the kids because most people are adults. 

It’s nonsense that 5000 stand at every home match. Your slippery slope flawed logic is also nonsense.

[Mr Weller 2]

12 hours ago, purpleronnie said:

It's very important who was to blame and we need to stop blaming Liverpool fans when the fans have been exonerated.

He’s not blaming Liverpool fans. He’s saying the very fact standing existed made it possible. Wilful misunderstanding is unhelpful.

[GlennyFox55]

1 minute ago, Mr Weller 2 said:

It’s nonsense that 5000 stand at every home match. Your slippery slope flawed logic is also nonsense.

Including the away end it’s around that figure, against Forest there was probably closer to 6000 stood with the whole of P block also standing. 

[GlennyFox55]

8 minutes ago, Mr Weller 2 said:

So the thread is just for people who agree? Isn’t that what they call cancel culture?

How is complaining about a discussion being tedious then being reminded you don’t have to read and partake in it cancel culture? 

[davieG]

Irrespective of how and who was responsible for the over crowding people died because of the fencing, there was no escape route.

 

A stupid idea considering every large public building has to have Fire escape routes, did no one in authority see what happened at Barnsley? But you can also blame the previous hooligans attending matches with the sole purpose of violent fighting.

[Sol thewall Bamba]

2 hours ago, Mr Weller 2 said:

It’s nonsense that 5000 stand at every home match. Your slippery slope flawed logic is also nonsense.

3200 in the away end. 660 (minimum) in SK1. 900 in L1 and K1. Probably 200 across the back of the Kop. 

 

4960 😘

[DoveValleyFox]

15 hours ago, Claridge said:

It was a terrible event,but there were thousands there without tickets trying to gain entry and a massive crush happened. Doesn’t really matter who was to blame as long as lessons were learnt to stop it happening again. Anyone who went to matches in the 80s knows what football was like then. Anyone who didn’t has absolutely no idea

I went to most Leicester games during that era. I also went to a few others, including Liverpool. 

I agree with your comments.  I still feel sadness as well as some anger for the death of the innocents that day. The perpetrators were not just the police, Hillsborough and the authorities in general but some 'fans' who were there. I remain angry at them also and the continued denial and hypocrisy of many involved. 

I think that safe standing should return and definitely without fencing.