Safe standing - time to act

[stripeyfox]

18 hours ago, Golden Fox said:

It was only a matter of time, but likely in terms of balance, there is an article on the BBC website today with a headline about standing being a step backwards: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59908736.

 

It gives voice to a Hillsborough campaigner... Its been covered before, but simplistically, Hillsborough was about ticketing and cages, with too many people being let into a section which didn't have any escape. The fact that it was a standing section was a bit of a moot point - it was more that that without set places, that was the area people without tickets would target so as not to get thrown out.

 

Reading the comments made, it says that "return to standing carries "risk"" and then does not make a single point as to what that risk is. (The question of what happens if maintenance isn't looked at properly is no different from any other area of a stadium and again, I can't see how that is a specific point against standing).

 

Its frustrating that these trials would not be taking place if the arguments against hadn't been slowly discredited, but there still seems to be an agenda to keep bringing them up anyway.

I'm suprised that Trevor Hicks who as always been very calm and dignified about the Hillsborough campaign for justice has come out and said this. I accept that he experienced almost unimaginable tragedy in losing both of his daughters at Hillsborough, but he perhaps more than most having been at the forefront of the campaign for the truth should be aware that it wasn't "standing" as such that caused the deaths but the total mismangement and loss of control by the police and the fatal decision to open Gate C without first closing the tunnel to the central pens.

 

It is worth restating here for those who continue to be ignorant of the facts that the overall number of fans on the Leppings Lane terrace did not exceed it's capacity, it was only the distribution amongs the pens.

 

In terms pf introuding a safe standing area at Leicester - wherever they choose to do it (lets say the kop for example) there will be lots of fans who don't fancy it for a variety of reasons (elderly, attend with young kids etc) - as long as they are relocated to another area at no additional cost then I don't see a problem. And I incude myself in that; if my seat became standing and I didn't want to stand then I'm not so attached to "my" seat (which of course, isn't really "my" seat at all). As long as they move me somewhere else, then happy days.

[K1FOX]

Club pander to the large groups of people who come for a social chat and picnic at our ground and these people have settled and I doubt the club will try and move them for anything 

[Freeman's Wharfer]

The problem with asking family of those who died at Hillsborough about safe-standing is that unfortunately you will rarely be able to get an objective view. They’re an easy go-to for an opinion though so I imagine we’ll hear quite a lot from them in the media over the next couple of years.

[ajthefox]

On 02/01/2022 at 21:14, The_77 said:

I had no idea it’s easier to engage in racism and hate speech when standing. Ban “Safe” Standing NOW.

 

 

 

I can't believe this is the head of the Cheshire police. This bloke should be knowledgeable and balanced about this stuff but he's talking out of his arse.

[The_77]

23 minutes ago, ajthefox said:

I can't believe this is the head of the Cheshire police. This bloke should be knowledgeable and balanced about this stuff but he's talking out of his arse.

Scary, isn’t it?

[lebleu]

2 hours ago, Freeman's Wharfer said:

Why can’t you?

 

People pay for admission to the match, not to reserve some seat for their entire lifetime.

 

What do you think happens when it’s a cup tie and the away allocation is big enough that L1 needs to be given over? I’ve had a season ticket there since 2008 but I don’t start getting precious about ‘my seat’ - I simply move elsewhere because what I’m going for is the match, to see my team and not to sit in the exact same spot every time.

I think this is an interesting point. Essentially you are renting a seat for a season. Buying a seat for a lifetime (like a home) would be significantly more expensive in theory. I suppose every time the club sells a season ticket for the next season they can decide whether that includes the option for the buyer to have priority to renew it the following season. That's the contractual side of it I suppose! 

Edited 8 January 2022 by lebleu

[Freeman's Wharfer]

I actually emailed Mark Roberts in the week to call him out on the danger of him stating what he had about standing areas as if it were fact in his high profile role.

 

But funnily enough, today in the SK1 singing section I experienced many of the things he talked about in his interview…

 

There was a group of boys (and I’m going to say boys even though they were likely 18 or 19) in front and they had clearly had a few. They started throwing the flags that Union FS had laid out onto the people below in front and thought that was good fun. They were standing on the backs of the seats in front and jumping to the point one of the seat backs (in our own stadium) was snapped. When Tielemans was lining up for the pen they were talking about how they were going to throw themselves into the rows in front if he scored - he did, they did (ending up in a pile on the floor two rows in front). They went to the concourse and brought beer back to their seats (which stewards came in to take pretty swiftly).
 

Second half they were joined by the rest of their group and had about 9 stood in the space for 4 seats (again throwing themselves into the rows in front when Barnes scored - all completely choreographed, having talked about how they’d do it if we scored). They were drinking from hip flasks they’d snuck in. And then finally they headed off to L1 on about 85 minutes which was apparently where those who appeared for the second half had come from.

 

Now they were just young lads, being immature, over-excited on a few beers they haven’t yet got the tolerance for and feeling they have to act the fool to fit in with the group but I found it interesting to witness all the same. And it made me think.

 

If safe-standing was introduced, these are the guys who would be doing all of the things Mark Roberts talked about (with the exception of the racism) and jeopardising it for the rest. They’d be climbing on the rails and doing many of the other things Roberts claimed would happen in a safe-standing area.

 

That doesn’t change my opinion on safe-standing at all. I’ve been a firm supporter of having it for a long time, and not sat at a Leicester game for 10+ years, but it would have to be policed in some way to cater for fact that idiots like these lads exist at every club in the country. I’m sure abroad in ultra sections and things like that there’s probably an element of self-policing that happens amongst the fans but I don’t think that’s the culture here.

 

So, despite emailing him to disagree with a lot of what he said just days ago, I actually have to agree with some of the points he made (even though he made them as statements of fact without demonstrating any evidence) that there are definite challenges that would come with something like safe-standing.

 

 

[HybridFox]

Today was a glimpse of how much better the atmosphere will be once we bring it in, hopefully on a full stand 

[Finnaldo]

21 minutes ago, Freeman's Wharfer said:

There was a group of boys (and I’m going to say boys even though they were likely 18 or 19) in front and they had clearly had a few. They started throwing the flags that Union FS had laid out onto the people below in front and thought that was good fun. They were standing on the backs of the seats in front and jumping to the point one of the seat backs (in our own stadium) was snapped. When Tielemans was lining up for the pen they were talking about how they were going to throw themselves into the rows in front if he scored - he did, they did (ending up in a pile on the floor two rows in front). They went to the concourse and brought beer back to their seats (which stewards came in to take pretty swiftly).
 

Second half they were joined by the rest of their group and had about 9 stood in the space for 4 seats (again throwing themselves into the rows in front when Barnes scored - all completely choreographed, having talked about how they’d do it if we scored). They were drinking from hip flasks they’d snuck in. And then finally they headed off to L1 on about 85 minutes which was apparently where those who appeared for the second half had come from.

The whole point of railed seating is that it makes this much harder- the excuse to ‘fall’ over a couple rows is easy when all that’s in front of your is a shin-high seat top of the row in front but is a lot harder when there’s a waist high rail in front of you. The high likelihood of landing yourself on a steel rail is also pretty discouraging. 
 

That’s the whole point, it stops rushing or crushes and in turn people hurling themselves, hence ‘safe’ standing. 
 

Didn’t mean to lecture chief, I just think it’s important to point out that’s the whole point of the safe standing campaign! 

Edited 8 January 2022 by Finnaldo

[Freeman's Wharfer]

14 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

The whole point of railed seating is that it makes this much harder- the excuse to ‘fall’ over a couple rows is easy when all that’s in front of your is a shin-high seat top of the row in front but is a lot harder when there’s a waist high rail in front of you. The high likelihood of landing yourself on a steel rail is also pretty discouraging. 
 

That’s the whole point, it stops rushing or crushes and in turn people hurling themselves, hence ‘safe’ standing. 
 

Didn’t mean to lecture chief, I just think it’s important to point out that’s the whole point of the safe standing campaign! 

Yeah, I completely get it. I’ve always thought of the rail being there to stop the accidental ones though.

 

We’ve all ended up on a row behind or in front when a big goal has been scored and the spontaneous celebration has resulted in that. Railing will prevent that.

 

But if you’re talking about actively diving into the rows in front and then doing it for a penalty at home to… Watford… in an FA Cup third round tie, what’s to stop you climbing on the rails and jumping forward in a safe-standing section?

Maturity, sense and intelligent reasoning, yes. These lads today didn’t seem to have many of them shared even amongst the 8 or 9 of them.

[Finnaldo]

55 minutes ago, Freeman's Wharfer said:

Yeah, I completely get it. I’ve always thought of the rail being there to stop the accidental ones though.

 

We’ve all ended up on a row behind or in front when a big goal has been scored and the spontaneous celebration has resulted in that. Railing will prevent that.

 

But if you’re talking about actively diving into the rows in front and then doing it for a penalty at home to… Watford… in an FA Cup third round tie, what’s to stop you climbing on the rails and jumping forward in a safe-standing section?

Maturity, sense and intelligent reasoning, yes. These lads today didn’t seem to have many of them shared even amongst the 8 or 9 of them.

With a rail you’d have to climb on/over it to actually jump, then hope you don’t hit several of the rails ahead of you. It isn’t completely idiot proof but it’s a damn sight harder than throwing yourself over a shin-high seat top as is the current standard. Whether they have any common sense or not, I doubt those lads would be suicidal enough to dive into steel rails. 

[leicesterseddon]

23 hours ago, K1FOX said:

Club pander to the large groups of people who come for a social chat and picnic at our ground and these people have settled and I doubt the club will try and move them for anything 

I think this gets to the nub of it. 
 

Are they willing to temporarily annoy some season-ticket holders to enable a decent-sized standing area to eventually take shape?

 

The expansion obviously could help in this respect, as it will make it much easier to give people the option of relocating. 
 

If not, the outcome will be a tiny safe standing area, with much more zealous stewarding of (what will become) the “I’ve paid for a seat” areas. 
 

This is why I think it’s important to properly gauge what size of area we actually want. 

[Sol thewall Bamba]

16 hours ago, Freeman's Wharfer said:

I actually emailed Mark Roberts in the week to call him out on the danger of him stating what he had about standing areas as if it were fact in his high profile role.

 

But funnily enough, today in the SK1 singing section I experienced many of the things he talked about in his interview…

 

There was a group of boys (and I’m going to say boys even though they were likely 18 or 19) in front and they had clearly had a few. They started throwing the flags that Union FS had laid out onto the people below in front and thought that was good fun. They were standing on the backs of the seats in front and jumping to the point one of the seat backs (in our own stadium) was snapped. When Tielemans was lining up for the pen they were talking about how they were going to throw themselves into the rows in front if he scored - he did, they did (ending up in a pile on the floor two rows in front). They went to the concourse and brought beer back to their seats (which stewards came in to take pretty swiftly).
 

Second half they were joined by the rest of their group and had about 9 stood in the space for 4 seats (again throwing themselves into the rows in front when Barnes scored - all completely choreographed, having talked about how they’d do it if we scored). They were drinking from hip flasks they’d snuck in. And then finally they headed off to L1 on about 85 minutes which was apparently where those who appeared for the second half had come from.

 

Now they were just young lads, being immature, over-excited on a few beers they haven’t yet got the tolerance for and feeling they have to act the fool to fit in with the group but I found it interesting to witness all the same. And it made me think.

 

If safe-standing was introduced, these are the guys who would be doing all of the things Mark Roberts talked about (with the exception of the racism) and jeopardising it for the rest. They’d be climbing on the rails and doing many of the other things Roberts claimed would happen in a safe-standing area.

 

That doesn’t change my opinion on safe-standing at all. I’ve been a firm supporter of having it for a long time, and not sat at a Leicester game for 10+ years, but it would have to be policed in some way to cater for fact that idiots like these lads exist at every club in the country. I’m sure abroad in ultra sections and things like that there’s probably an element of self-policing that happens amongst the fans but I don’t think that’s the culture here.

 

So, despite emailing him to disagree with a lot of what he said just days ago, I actually have to agree with some of the points he made (even though he made them as statements of fact without demonstrating any evidence) that there are definite challenges that would come with something like safe-standing.

 

 

That's a bit frustrating to read as no doubt the club will lay the blame for this at our door regardless of the fact they knew our lads were on the first 6/7 rows.

 

I guess you'll get over excited people anywhere. I think if this were permanent then it would mainly be season ticket holders in there who wouldn't want to draw attention to themselves acting up like that.

[Freeman's Wharfer]

4 hours ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

That's a bit frustrating to read as no doubt the club will lay the blame for this at our door regardless of the fact they knew our lads were on the first 6/7 rows.

 

I guess you'll get over excited people anywhere. I think if this were permanent then it would mainly be season ticket holders in there who wouldn't want to draw attention to themselves acting up like that.

Yeah I did think this.

I’m sure the club are keeping a close eye on everything relating to these singing sections and will be all over reports from stewards about anything they had to deal with.

 

As well as coming into the row in the first half to take the beer away, they came back in the second half to tell them to get down off the seats and then again for something where they took one lad away for a word before letting him return.

 

We’ve all been silly when we’re young and have just started drinking but unfortunately the behaviour of that group jeopardises the future of things like this for everyone. I’d hope the club realises that it cannot be entirely self-policed and that were they not having to deal with these idiots in SK1 they’d only have been dealing with them elsewhere.

 

 

[CosbehFox]

48 minutes ago, Freeman's Wharfer said:

Yeah I did think this.

I’m sure the club are keeping a close eye on everything relating to these singing sections and will be all over reports from stewards about anything they had to deal with.

 

As well as coming into the row in the first half to take the beer away, they came back in the second half to tell them to get down off the seats and then again for something where they took one lad away for a word before letting him return.

 

We’ve all been silly when we’re young and have just started drinking but unfortunately the behaviour of that group jeopardises the future of things like this for everyone. I’d hope the club realises that it cannot be entirely self-policed and that were they not having to deal with these idiots in SK1 they’d only have been dealing with them elsewhere.

 

 

You know as well as anyone abroad, there will be people to step in when the behaviour is too much. They will also distribute the leading group all over the section as well to self police 

[sacreblueits442]

On 07/01/2022 at 18:41, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Pretty insulting given the Hillsborough survivors group back safe standing.

...personally I do prefer to sit, but that is not the point!!!

  The disaster was a culmination of bad judgement by the police and by supporters.

  The question would be, could it happen again?

  With all the safety protocols in place and the trust that you will be coming home safely from a game, it took  misguided decisions for it to happen.

What more security would a seated area have provided in that instance is very much a question to be asked.

[davieG]

Brentford have confirmed plans to install barrier seats at the Brentford Community stadium for the start of the 2022-23 season.

The entirety of the new ground’s west stand and 1,700 seats in the away end will be converted to licensed standing areas next season, the club said this week.

Brentford’s decision follows on from a fan survey carried out in December 2021 in which 89% of fans indicated their support for the installation.
“It’s great to see the club making good on its promise to bring safe standing to the west stand,” said Gemma Teale from Brentford Independent Association of Supporters. “Standing to watch a game has been a huge part of watching Brentford for so many fans over the years, so this is a really welcome step.”

https://thefsa.org.uk/news/brentford-announce-plans-for-standing-at-new-ground/

 

[Ian Nacho]

23 hours ago, davieG said:

Brentford have confirmed plans to install barrier seats at the Brentford Community stadium for the start of the 2022-23 season.

The entirety of the new ground’s west stand and 1,700 seats in the away end will be converted to licensed standing areas next season, the club said this week.

Brentford’s decision follows on from a fan survey carried out in December 2021 in which 89% of fans indicated their support for the installation.
“It’s great to see the club making good on its promise to bring safe standing to the west stand,” said Gemma Teale from Brentford Independent Association of Supporters. “Standing to watch a game has been a huge part of watching Brentford for so many fans over the years, so this is a really welcome step.”

https://thefsa.org.uk/news/brentford-announce-plans-for-standing-at-new-ground/

 

What's the point when they don't even sell beer?

[Unabomber]

10 minutes ago, Ian Nacho said:

What's the point when they don't even sell beer?

They don’t sell beer? Wtf

[Ian Nacho]

4 hours ago, Unabomber said:

They don’t sell beer? Wtf

Not when we played them anyway 

[Voll Blau]

13 hours ago, Ian Nacho said:

What's the point when they don't even sell beer?

Did a belting lamb shawarma though.

[Sol thewall Bamba]

On 25/02/2022 at 18:37, davieG said:

Brentford have confirmed plans to install barrier seats at the Brentford Community stadium for the start of the 2022-23 season.

The entirety of the new ground’s west stand and 1,700 seats in the away end will be converted to licensed standing areas next season, the club said this week.

Brentford’s decision follows on from a fan survey carried out in December 2021 in which 89% of fans indicated their support for the installation.
“It’s great to see the club making good on its promise to bring safe standing to the west stand,” said Gemma Teale from Brentford Independent Association of Supporters. “Standing to watch a game has been a huge part of watching Brentford for so many fans over the years, so this is a really welcome step.”

https://thefsa.org.uk/news/brentford-announce-plans-for-standing-at-new-ground/

 

They made it very easy for themselves as they told everyone from their old terrace to buy in that stand behind the goal. So no people moaning in there about having that seat changed to a rail because everyone in there stands anyway. If only eh?

[Corky]

It really does show how far behind/ not interested the club is about an issue like this.

[Ian Nacho]

4 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

Did a belting lamb shawarma though.

For about 15 quid. 

[SemperEadem]

QPR are the latest club going for it.