Is Attending University the great Con of our time ?

[ScouseFox]

Just now, Miquel The Work Geordie said:

That's why I went, god I love the neoliberal machine

did you learn that fancy word at uni pal 

[GaelicFox]

35 minutes ago, Samilktray said:

Its a bit weird really, not sure how anyone can be expected to absolutely know what they want to do for the rest of there life at 16 years old. I'm 26 and still haven't the foggiest and speak to people older than me all the time who still don't know. 

Can I ask what your doing now ? 

 

26 isn't exactly young to be still searching your career path , does it worry you ? 

[GaelicFox]

35 minutes ago, Amin said:

I'm undecided, but I wouldn't recommend anyone blindly go to university just because it's the done thing.

 

I graduated with a first class in mechanical engineering last may and over year of job searching later, I've only just received my first engineering job offer this week. 

 

That is all well and good, but when I look at my mates who started on an apprenticeship at 16 and are now managers, with their own flat and nice car and compare that with me: still living with my parents, no car, over £40k in student debt, it makes me wonder if I made the right decision. 

Well done on the job ! 

 

Its worrying that with  such a good vocational degree has left you slightly concerned if it was worth the debt and late  start 

 

im 100% sure your degree will pay off very well for you in long term 

 

it's a fantastic degree and will help you achieve a great deal 

[Trav Le Bleu]

The Royal Mail delivery office I work in has about 40 staff and at least 6 of them have degrees. Go figure.

 

 

Oh yeah, and one former Leicester City player.

[Great Boos Up]

In my day when it was O and A levels only the very brightest went on to university. Those who did seemed to be either were working on a cure for cancer or labelling test tubes of piss.

13 O levels and 3 A levels later I realised that those pushing university had gone through the same experience but then went on to get a degree a masters and then back to teaching and had never actually left the education bubble. Those were the educated people who gave me a great education but I wouldn't call them intelligent or myself and there is a difference. My first job was digging roads and I learnt more about the world than any university could teach. The graduates I knew still seem to recall those days as their best.

I assume it's either opportunity or circumstance that currently applies to whether you go to university or not. (Demari just scored) A degree in graphic design sounds a great and wonderful career but you will be competing against another crop of a thousand with the same degree year after year and how many graphic designers are undercutting the currently employed.

[Countryfox]

2 hours ago, GaelicFox said:

Actually I don't think that's less serious ... I actually think many just sign up to get out of home and get a cracking social life 

 

Guilty ..

[m4DD0gg]

Not for me, had 4 awesome years of getting shit faced, getting good qualifications that gave me a spring board and got me a great job. Sure i walked away with about 20K debts but they are long since paid off.

[Strokes]

2 hours ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

the effect of a service based economy and the increasing corporatism and privatisation that inbeds itself into institutions that were formerly regarded as essential for the progress of the nation.  Universities are state subsidised businesses selling 'experiences' to customers i.e. the students and are not seen as an extension to the normal state education system enriching lives and human progress. If you don't like it blame neoliberalism.

It's one thing I actually agree with you on, student are being ripped off by universities because the way the tuition fees are designed. It's farcical and it will end up costing the taxpayer more because 75% of these fees will never get paid back. We would have been better offering free tuition and regulating the costs as such.

I can see why young people are looking for complete economic and political change (Corbyn) the odds are tipped against them from the start.

[Captain...]

I wouldn't be where I am today without going to Uni, but not really down to anything I studied but everything else that came with it. I didn't real have a clue who I was, what I was good at, how to survive and function in the real world. University was very much a transition from being dependent to independence with a number of safety nets in place, student loans, halls of residence, student bank accounts etc

 

I was one of those that pissed it up the wall, spent all my time in the pub, working or drinking and got myself a Desmond. The social side of it was more beneficial I learnt a lot just hanging round with my friends whether it was talking about politics, books, music, computing I grew much more as a human being for the experience than academically. That is what gave me the confidence in myself and the personality to go out into the real world get a proper job and work my way into a successful position in life.

 

My post uni career trajectory started with a temp job which I didn't need a degree for, mainly photocopying and filing, but if I had taken that job straight out of school there is no way I would have got the opportunities I got. It was the soft skills I developed at uni that helped, but then not everyone leaves school a shy, insecure weirdo who only had 3 real friends all 3 of which had a negative influence on me in hindsight.

 

I scraped into Uni, dossed for 3 years, made lots of friends and came out of a much better person, but not academically. I have no idea if I am a positive advert for Uni or not, I guess I'm just saying that Uni can be a very positive experience even if you do a joke degree and sack off 80% of their lectures. Although I didn't pay £40,000 for the privilege.

[pSinatra]

I'd be interested to now how much my degree would cost in tuition fees nowadays.  I did a history degree at Sheffield University & I don't think I did any more than 9 hours lectures a week.  In the final year I was doing 5 hours a week.  £9k for 5 hours tuition a week?  Balls to that, the robbing bastards.

 

I graduated in 1997 & received nearly a full grant in my first year, which were being phased out & replaced by student loans at the time.  I left with about £5k in student loans (+ credit cards & overdraft).  I have to earn about £27k a year before I have to pay my student loan back.  I've never earnt that much & now I'm self-employed I won't be ever declaring I earn that much.  I've never paid a penny of my student loan back.  The rates are not so advantageous these days.

 

I went to university because I didn't know what else to do, I liked history & Sheffield seemed a good place to go.  I wouldn't necessarily recommend Sheffield University, but I can recommend some great Sheffield pubs & clubs.

 

My step-daughter seems reasonably intelligent & the whole family are going nuts for her to go to university.  I seem to be the only one that is suggesting caution.  As others have said, if she decides she wants to go into a particular profession that requires a university education, then I'm all for that.  Going to university for the sake of it is a complete waste of time.

[rn9013]

On a personal level I studied Sociology with Criminology at the University of York. Did I absolutely need to study this and go to uni to succeed? Absolutely not. However I think it has certainly helped. 

 

Admittedly the course choice was more of an interest rather than a career related topic. But uni gave me far more than knowledge on a specific subject matter, it developed my critical writing and analysis skillset, presentation skills, and helped me become independent from parents in a manner that I feel just isn't possible by going straight into work from school. It will come of course, but it takes more time in comparison to being thrust into a University setting away from home. That being said I went when the fees were £3k per year. If they were £9k+ per year as they are now I'm not convinced I would have gone. 

 

Interestingly I now work in the HE sector, and despite the positives I feel Uni has provided for me, I do feel quite strongly that we need to move away from this mentality that University = success and anything else = failure. I feel if you are academic and you have the ability to go to a good University-go for it. However if you're not academic, or if you want a career in a trade that would be better served by an apprenticeship for example-go for that instead! 

 

 

 

[Charl91]

Best time of my life. Definitely couldn't recommend it enough.

 

Met my partner of 7 years there, made many great friends that I still see on a regular basis, and I think improved myself as a person. Degree wasn't particularly useful (History and English), but am a teacher, so needed the degree for my job anyway. Only paid 3k a year, but if someone asked me if I would do it all again for 9k a year, then I'd say yes at the drop of a hat.

 

Apprenticeships certainly aren't pushed enough though. Was barely mentioned when I was in 6th form!

[Captain...]

15 minutes ago, pSinatra said:

I'd be interested to now how much my degree would cost in tuition fees nowadays.  I did a history degree at Sheffield University & I don't think I did any more than 9 hours lectures a week.  In the final year I was doing 5 hours a week.  £9k for 5 hours tuition a week?  Balls to that, the robbing bastards.

 

I graduated in 1997 & received nearly a full grant in my first year, which were being phased out & replaced by student loans at the time.  I left with about £5k in student loans (+ credit cards & overdraft).  I have to earn about £27k a year before I have to pay my student loan back.  I've never earnt that much & now I'm self-employed I won't be ever declaring I earn that much.  I've never paid a penny of my student loan back.  The rates are not so advantageous these days.

 

I went to university because I didn't know what else to do, I liked history & Sheffield seemed a good place to go.  I wouldn't necessarily recommend Sheffield University, but I can recommend some great Sheffield pubs & clubs.

 

My step-daughter seems reasonably intelligent & the whole family are going nuts for her to go to university.  I seem to be the only one that is suggesting caution.  As others have said, if she decides she wants to go into a particular profession that requires a university education, then I'm all for that.  Going to university for the sake of it is a complete waste of time.

I was also Sheffield Uni a few years later, no grants but fees were manageable. It was a great place to go out.

 

I guess with your step daughter it depends if she is going to fulfil her potential not going to Uni, especially if she isn't sure what she wants to do, not having a degree will limit options. One thing I would like to see more is young people going out into the world trying to figure out what they want to do and then going to uni. A friend mine didn't go straight to uni from school she worked in a clothes shop for a while decided she liked working in fashion and wanted to be a merchandiser (basically a buyer for fashion) found out that she needed a degree to do it and then went to university and studied fashion merchandising. She said she benefited from knowing what she wanted to do, she still had fun but having an end goal made her take it all the more serious.

[Innovindil]

Never went to uni myself, didn't have the chance at the time, did an engineering apprenticeship I paid for myself instead, and that has worked out pretty well.

 

In the end it comes down to what you study, I've had friends go uni who have ridiculously good, well paid jobs and others who went and now work part time at sainsburys. 

 

I wouldn't quite say uni is a "con", but an awful lot of the courses that they are teaching are.

[ealingfox]

I did Ancient History, needless to say I am not directly using that degree in my work. I ended up supplementing it with a postgraduate course to improve my job prospects. But the job I do I could not have gotten without a degree and I could not have done my postgrad without the degree that I got.

 

[Trav Le Bleu]

As Uni attendance increases, what will happen when everyone has a degree?

[pSinatra]

2 minutes ago, Captain... said:

I was also Sheffield Uni a few years later, no grants but fees were manageable. It was a great place to go out.

 

I guess with your niece it depends if she is going to fulfil her potential not going to Uni, especially if she isn't sure what she wants to do, not having a degree will limit options. One thing I would like to see more is young people going out into the world trying to figure out what they want to do and then going to uni. A friend mine didn't go straight to uni from school she worked in a clothes shop for a while decided she liked working in fashion and wanted to be a merchandiser (basically a buyer for fashion) found out that she needed a degree to do it and then went to university and studied fashion merchandising. She said she benefited from knowing what she wanted to do, she still had fun but having an end goal made her take it all the more serious.

 

That's a perfectly fair comment & I agree with you/her.

 

I was 22 when I went university.  I had a few jobs before deciding to go, but nothing that was looking like leading anywhere.  My Dad always used to say "get youself a trade" & I never listened to him.  It was YTS when I left school & apprenticeships were something from when my parents were at school - they or anything like them just didn't exist.

 

I would like to see the step-daughter find her own feet & make her own decisions.  She's only 12, but both sets of grandparents have already started a university fund like it's an inevitability & she probably already feels the pressure to go to university.  I get dirty looks if I even suggest anything other than going straight to university.  I'm not saying "don't go to university", just offering the many other options available to her.

[Lionator]

It's a good debate because almost everybody will have a different opinion. I really struggled with anxiety throughout my teenage years to the point where I didn't think university would be an option. Alas, I got some average A levels and was thrown forward into uni by my school who like others have said, didn't really present a balanced debate when it comes to what you do after leaving school. After about a week I knew I wasn't ready for uni and dropped out, got a part time job, struggled with anxiety and depression as a result as I felt like I'd failed and felt I was getting nowhere. Fast forward 10 months I went for it again (at a second rate university) and this time did it properly, moved to a new city and it turned out to be all ok. I've just graduated with a high 2.1 (painfully close to a first but it wasn't to be), got some really good voluntary experience in the NHS and had a job for two out of three years in a music venue added with a good social life which included me getting involved with the student union. A couple of months on however, it's clear that to get a job linked to my degree is going to be crazily hard even with the experience I have, it's just so competitive. I'd got a job in a bar back here as soon as I finished but the management was awful and I walked out after 6 weeks and I've started volunteering in a healthcare setting for a few hours a week to keep me busy, yet here I am now applying for 50-100 jobs a week all over the country and I've only had 1 interview so far. I have no idea what I want to do, people keep telling me to be patient but I'm a perfectionist and can feel the anxiety coming back. On the other hand, if I'd have not gone to university, from personal experience there isn't much out there for those sixth form leavers. I personally think this is a result of years of neglect of young people by the government, employment stats misted by terrible zero hour jobs, it really is a bit bleak unless you go straight into a vocational subject or graduate from a top red-brick uni (I have an ex who got a 2.2 from a red brick uni, has never worked or volunteered and got a £25k job straight away).

[Nick]

3 minutes ago, Lionator said:

It's a good debate because almost everybody will have a different opinion. I really struggled with anxiety throughout my teenage years to the point where I didn't think university would be an option. Alas, I got some average A levels and was thrown forward into uni by my school who like others have said, didn't really present a balanced debate when it comes to what you do after leaving school. After about a week I knew I wasn't ready for uni and dropped out, got a part time job, struggled with anxiety and depression as a result as I felt like I'd failed and felt I was getting nowhere. Fast forward 10 months I went for it again (at a second rate university) and this time did it properly, moved to a new city and it turned out to be all ok. I've just graduated with a high 2.1 (painfully close to a first but it wasn't to be), got some really good voluntary experience in the NHS and had a job for two out of three years in a music venue added with a good social life which included me getting involved with the student union. A couple of months on however, it's clear that to get a job linked to my degree is going to be crazily hard even with the experience I have, it's just so competitive. I'd got a job in a bar back here as soon as I finished but the management was awful and I walked out after 6 weeks and I've started volunteering in a healthcare setting for a few hours a week to keep me busy, yet here I am now applying for 50-100 jobs a week all over the country and I've only had 1 interview so far. I have no idea what I want to do, people keep telling me to be patient but I'm a perfectionist and can feel the anxiety coming back. On the other hand, if I'd have not gone to university, from personal experience there isn't much out there for those sixth form leavers. I personally think this is a result of years of neglect of young people by the government, employment stats misted by terrible zero hour jobs, it really is a bit bleak unless you go straight into a vocational subject or graduate from a top red-brick uni (I have an ex who got a 2.2 from a red brick uni, has never worked or volunteered and got a £25k job straight away).

Keep going mate - just need the one break to start your career.

[Lionator]

7 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

Keep going mate - just need the one break to start your career.

Cheers mate, I have back up plans. If nothing comes up I'll go back to uni and do a masters in a healthcare profession where there's always goin to be opportunity such as Speech & Language Therapy, although that would only get me in more debt with the government funding changes.

 

I have a cousin the same age as me who left school after A levels and didn't go to uni and they're stuck in the same job 4/5 years later with no opportunity to progress without university which they didn't know at the time. 

[Nick]

Just now, Lionator said:

Cheers mate, I have back up plans. If nothing comes up I'll go back to uni and do a masters in a healthcare profession where there's always goin to be opportunity such as Speech & Language Therapy, although that would only get me in more debt with the government funding laws.

 

I have a cousin the same age as me who left school after A levels and didn't go to uni and they're stuck in the same job 4/5 years later with no opportunity to progress without university which they didn't know at the time. 

I'd certainly do a Masters as soon as you are able - Health and Social Care is a changing landscape and an MA/MSc would allow you scope to teach, train / lecture as well as use a specialism in a professional capacity. Keep writing off for the jobs but also explore a Masters. 

 

Social Sciences students and Healthcare students are always slow burners - we know they get to the good jobs and high salaries in the end, it just takes a while, perhaps unlike study specific professionally qualifying degree courses like law, architecture, veterinary science etc

[Lionator]

7 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

I'd certainly do a Masters as soon as you are able - Health and Social Care is a changing landscape and an MA/MSc would allow you scope to teach, train / lecture as well as use a specialism in a professional capacity. Keep writing off for the jobs but also explore a Masters. 

 

Social Sciences students and Healthcare students are always slow burners - we know they get to the good jobs and high salaries in the end, it just takes a while, perhaps unlike study specific professionally qualifying degree courses like law, architecture, veterinary science etc

You see you've said more which is of use to me in a few sentances there than the careers team at my university ever said. They're woeful and an example of where certain universities fall behind. There's definitely a complacent university bubble which doesn't prepare graduates for the real world in certain subjects.

[Nick]

1 minute ago, Lionator said:

You see you've said more which is of use to me in a few sentances there than the careers team at my university have ever said. They're woeful and an example of where certain universities fall behind. There's definitely a complacent university bubble which doesn't prepare graduates for the real world in certain subjects.

Feel free to PM me if you like - happy to have a telephone conversation with you in the morning as I have a window between 9.15 and 10 - it'd be interesting to know about your degree and the sort of work you are looking for and what salary. I'd also be happy to confidentially review your CV and give you some application pointers if you feel it would help.

[Guest Kopfkino]

For me, having spent my summer toying with the idea of leaving uni and doing it differently, ultimately I see uni as worth it for me, albeit the 60k 'debt' is frustrating. Trying to get a job in London, that pays enough to live in London without help has proved challenging. I have had positive feedback from the interviews I attended but most has included the lack of a completed degree as a reason to discount me. Actually, I was offered two jobs north of 25k with growth potential, full-time at my part-time job and full-time at my old part-time job but I chose not to accept. Anyway, being at my uni got me those part-time jobs in the first place.

 

Had this been asked 4 months ago, I'd have said yeah it's all a nonsense. I have to admit I haven't particularly enjoyed the 2 years of my uni experience so far (a lot of that is my own fault) but I think that has made a huge difference to me as a person and been more beneficial. I did get into a position where I hated everything about uni and decided it was the root of all my issues and was determined I could do things better without uni. This summer has enabled me to pay my mental health the attention it deserved. I came to uni with depression and anxiety, expecting it to help make it better but it never did and my attitude towards uni made it worse. I've realised I surrounded myself with some of the wrong people and I was in what was a toxic relationship by the end which was making the experience shit. With other changes and the general upturn in my mental state, I expect the next 2 years to be alright and it will very much have been worth it. 

 

The uni debate always seems to focus on the financial rewards which very often depends on where you go and/or what you study. As I see it, the financial rewards are only part of it.

 

The fact it pretty much forces you to start taking responsibility for yourself and become more independent is invaluable. This inevitably matures you as a person and from my experience, the people who have stayed at home/not gone to uni do lack a little on this front. Financially it can sometimes be difficult as a student; so actually learning to budget properly or feeling the difficulties when you're low on money is really useful beyond that. I know a kid who left school and was earning decent money but lived at home and spunked it away, needing his parents to save him from having declare bankruptcy (ofc this is anecdotal and not a fair representation). The life skills you gain with a bit of a safety net for insurance aren't to be underestimated. Some people at 18 aren't really ready for the real world, uni gives a bit of both to ready people.

 

Of course the social side is great and highly useful (I was not very social this year, part of why it was so miserable). Some may see it as dossing or whatever but when you're young it's important to be able to have fun whilst you can. It's not just about he going out, getting drunk, getting high etc but any of the other teams or societies you can get involved in to further develop and share your interests. To have that concentration of things is quite unique, it's much more difficult to find these opportunities in the real world, certainly if you want to try something new and wouldn't know how to get involved. These things can end up being stuff you do for the rest of your lifetime that you might not have done otherwise. You makes friends for life as well. And, as we live in a service economy, you meet a multitude of people who will end up in a range of professions whom you may be able to call upon for a favour when you need. In fact, its quite plausible at some unis to end up with contacts across the globe. Being in a pool of numerous cultures, backgrounds, and ways of life in a different environment enables people to develop a more rounded view of the world, whilst potentially giving the chance to learn skills for free, given some of the crazy stuff people can do.  

 

There's also what you learn about yourself as a result of the environment that you're in. Be that the confidence you gain from achieving a degree over three years or getting through difficult times by yourself or for me just understanding what is actually going on in my head. But then it also gives you an extra three years to work out what you might want to do, and added to that, unis tend to offer a range of opportunities/resources which will allow you to explore that. 

 

I remember how utterly hopeless I was at the first networking event I went to and how shy I was (even though I'm not normally). I was rubbish at talking to these professionals much older than myself, which in a job could have been a meeting or whatever. That has completely changed now, my networking skills and thus the way I talk in any professional environment has improved dramatically. Basically, my ability to communicate in different settings and with a range of different people has come on in leaps and bounds in a way I don't think I could have achieved very easily had I gone into work. I think that's true of any desirable soft skill. I've had to be adaptable (given you're thrown into a completely new environment where things are done differently), critical thinking, time management and whatever else. It's not impossible to get away from uni, just I think uni makes development of these things more accessible to most.

 

Of course there is the intellectual side of university and what you actually learn. If you have a genuine interest in a subject, then university is the only real place with all the resources etc to properly explore that. Obviously if you want to do something that requires knowledge of chemistry then you have to study chemistry at uni. But also if you're inquisitive then it makes it possible to really inquire and think and discuss with similarly minded people. And then there's also the fact that the skills you use when studying also evolve the way your mind works and the way you might think. It's certainly changed my way of thinking about things, the way my mind processes information, and my thought-processes. Maybe not massively but there's been some effect. That may not all be positive (if you learn to over-analyse everything for example) but it does make you more susceptible to taking on information an processing it.

 

I don't get where this notion that a degree should directly relate to a job has come from? It's as much about the skills as the content a lot of the time.

 

Of course all of that will also benefit the financial rewards of university but I very much believe that too much is made of the ultimate financial rewards and less of its role in developing people and society. I'm sure I've missed stuff off but I can't think what right now. And I also admit that university isn't the only way of achieving this stuff.

 

Schools, and society actually, are rubbish at correctly informing kids and allowing them to make appropriate choices to them. Partly because even crappy unis still hold the prestige of going to uni for some, partly because going to uni keeps more doors open for long, and partly because people have no idea on the best route so it effectively kicks the can further down the road. 

 

Admittedly, 135 universities seems a ridiculously high number and a degree from London Met is not worth the paper it's written on in terms of financial benefits. Of course, when you're paying so much for said piece of paper it is important that it delivers a financial ROI and in this respect uni is a bit of a con for some people. In reality, it depends what uni you go to and what you study but ultimately it depends on the individual and if you can make it having gone to a crappy uni, then you could probably have made it otherwise (unless its something you need specific knowledge for). There is definitely too many people going to rubbish unis and studying nonsense subjects and just dossing around for 3 years. But, I feel the focus on financial rewards is symptomatic of a world focused on numbers and money. Maybe there's betterments that aren't quantifiable or measurable. The other things you gain at university may well for some people actually be worth the expenditure, some people have amazing experiences that they would struggle to get otherwise and is probably worth a significant sum of money. But then the problem is the taxpayer is possibly then shouldering the burden for that which is wrong, even though there's a net benefit to society. And is university actually just becoming an extension of the traditional education system anyway. 

 

The less said about university boards and management and the obscene pay levels, the better.

 

[Carl the Llama]

The quick, reductive answer which doesn't take anywhere near all of the variables into account:  For guys, yes, for girls, no.