Is Attending University the great Con of our time ?

[Simi]

14 hours ago, ScouseFox said:

from the age of about 13-14 schools (and then colleges) make out that there is simply two options come the age of 18;

 

- go to university. any university. any course. this is option a, the successful option.

- don't go to university. no matter what a levels you have or what plans you have to do in your life, without applying to university you will die, probably the day after results day. 

 

 

it's a bit warped really. i'm 23 now, work in a company and job role where everyone else has a degree (literally don't think there's one person on my team who has a degree that has anything to do with our job, mind) but i started at the bottom of said company and worked my way up, earning not taking instead of going to uni and joining half way up the ladder. 

 

each to their own, but degrees are pointless unless they are very good degrees, and i'm not paying 50 odd grand for "the uni experience". 

 

edit - "very good degrees" as in degrees in fields that you aim to work in, like loveday said. 

This is true and for me one of the biggest issues we have in the education system. 

 

I didn't end up going to university but the way it was drilled into us that it was the be all and end all petrified me. I've now been in the same job for the 7 years since I left school earning as good or better money than my friends that did go.

 

Don't get up on Uni, get your head down and get experience in an area that suits your skill set and you will be fine. 

[Guest BlueBrett]

I think it is a bit of a scam to be honest.

 

Obviously if you're going to do something like become a doctor then a medicine degree is a necessary bridge between school and the profession but the vast majority of people who wind up working in offices, even in semi-technical professional roles, probably wont be drawing on things they learnt at uni as they go about their job. 

 

I know not everyone's experience is the same but I barely even attended my course and my essays (the ones I actually submitted) were hashed together overnight as I searched cynically for a few usable quotes that would back up my predetermined arguments. They certainly weren't the considered product of months spent reading around the subject. I also only attended 7/12 exams in my second year for no good reason. Despite all this is still came out with a 2.1...so what does that mean? I went to a decent redbrick as well, I can only imagine things are even more lax and devoid of value at the former polys.

 

I think the main things most people get out of uni is a few good memories, hopefully a few good friends, a few notches on the bedpost, a **** ton of debt and in many cases including mine, a set of pseudo-intellectual airs and graces that rarely do any actual good other than the occasional feeling of derisive superiority.

 

Is it worth it? Dunno, it is what it is.

[lgfualol]

16 hours ago, TheUltimateWinner said:

My view is from one of someone who took an apprenticeship instead of opting to go to uni.

 

When I was doing my a-levels I found that it was shoved down your throat that you had to go uni, I had to do a UCAS application even though I was 99% sure I didn't want to go down that route (however, suppose it was quite nice to keep my options open a little bit longer).

 

I didn't get any support in finding an apprenticeship, found it myself.

Same here. I actually got taken aside by a senior teaching person who spoke to me like I was mental for not going to uni - which actually made me want to go even less. The pressure to succeed in my exams was enough to **** me up with anxiety and stress. I was glad to get out the system and start earning money.

[ousefox]

I think most opinions have been covered fairly well on here. The main gripe that people tend to have is with people doing 'crap degrees' or not putting the effort in once they're there.

 

The effort thing is what annoys me the most. Knowing people are just dossing about and will never pay their degree back really infuriates me as it is just like a free holiday for them. What I would say, from my own experience of having friends at Oxbridge, Russell Group and the lower level uni's, is that I've found this very rare. I definitely know a few but there's really not that many people like this at all. Most of them do get found out though and either don't finish their degree, resit year after year or get a 2.2 or below.

 

I definitely believe people shouldn't be pushed into uni as they're just wasting tax payers money and their own time if they're not going to take it seriously. I'd probably make the pass rate higher so you get kicked out early if you're heading towards a shit degree or not putting the effort in. Of course, uni's have no incentive for this as they want as many students as they can get.

[Captain...]

The con is the amount they charge in fees, the legislation says up to £9000, but very few courses, if any cost less, if there are certain resource heavy courses that make it worth the £9000 then fair enough, but most aren't and I think universities need to be made to justify why a course costs £9000 and not just charge everyone the maximum because they can.

[Guest MattP]

All depends on what you are doing. If you going to be a doctor or an engineer etc it will be well with the time and financial investment. 

 

The problem as a few have said is so many doing crap courses that wont be relevant to anything you do.

[Steven]

16 hours ago, theessexfox said:

I'm excited mainly to move out and become independent and have a new challenge and meet new people. The intellectual challenge that a Cambridge education will provide for me also excites me, to stretch my thinking and broaden my horizons and political perspectives. Studying social anthropology is also something I've never been able to do and really appeals to me.

Don't listen to naysayers. 

[Guest BlueBrett]

10 minutes ago, Watson said:

I think most opinions have been covered fairly well on here. The main gripe that people tend to have is with people doing 'crap degrees' or not putting the effort in once they're there.

 

The effort thing is what annoys me the most. Knowing people are just dossing about and will never pay their degree back really infuriates me as it is just like a free holiday for them. What I would say, from my own experience of having friends at Oxbridge, Russell Group and the lower level uni's, is that I've found this very rare. I definitely know a few but there's really not that many people like this at all. Most of them do get found out though and either don't finish their degree, resit year after year or get a 2.2 or below.

 

I definitely believe people shouldn't be pushed into uni as they're just wasting tax payers money and their own time if they're not going to take it seriously. I'd probably make the pass rate higher so you get kicked out early if you're heading towards a shit degree or not putting the effort in. Of course, uni's have no incentive for this as they want as many students as they can get.

This surprises me. Maybe I was moving in the wrong circles the whole time!

 

5 minutes ago, Captain... said:

The con is the amount they charge in fees, the legislation says up to £9000, but very few courses, if any cost less, if there are certain resource heavy courses that make it worth the £9000 then fair enough, but most aren't and I think universities need to be made to justify why a course costs £9000 and not just charge everyone the maximum because they can.

I don't have an issue with level of the fees although I have said before they should consider pricing courses individually. The REAL con and the thing that makes me feel like there is some kind of conspiracy going is only really apparent to me now that I'm a bit more worldly and it's this: Why do sooooooo many entry level jobs specify that applicants must have a degree? You see them all the time..graduate this, graduate that and then you look at the actual day to day requirements of the job and think they could quite easily be carried out by a 16 year old school leaver with a couple weeks training - or that the competencies required to be successful in the job are completely different from the skills that a degree certificate is supposed to evidence. In many cases they will say something like yeh we don't care what subject you studied, any degree will do.. So why do they do it? Makes kids feel that the only way into white collar employment is through uni so naturally they apply. It's such bullshit. Allows companies to make crappy functional jobs sound like actual careers with development potential and simultaneously gets bums on seats at the unis. Not suggesting there was some secret government memo that went out but it seems both business and the HE sector have cottoned on that there is huge potential to exploit young people and they're taking full advantage.

[Voll Blau]

18 hours ago, ScouseFox said:

from the age of about 13-14 schools (and then colleges) make out that there is simply two options come the age of 18;

 

- go to university. any university. any course. this is option a, the successful option.

- don't go to university. no matter what a levels you have or what plans you have to do in your life, without applying to university you will die, probably the day after results day. 

 

Yep, this was definitely my experience too. Thankfully plenty of people I know saw through it and have gone on to do well for themselves without a university education.

 

But on the other hand...

 

18 hours ago, Miquel The Work Geordie said:

Depends what you study, really. I wouldn't have gotten a foot on the ladder in what I do had I not gone to uni.

This was also true for me. Wouldn't have been the case 20/30 years ago, so if I was a teenager then I would likely have foregone it, but I simply had to go to university to do what I wanted to do at the time I left school. Wouldn't like to be a kid having to make that decision now though, think I'd be far too intimidated by the headline cost (regardless of how repayments are dressed up, big numbers are still scary to a lot of kids in that position).

[RoboFox]

I didn't really want to go to university, to be honest. I was in a band at the time and it felt like we were really getting somewhere, however the others had decided to go and so I thought "why not" and applied to do a Music Technology course, eventually taking on extra Music Industry Management modules. I had no idea what I wanted to do afterwards.

 

Found the first year easy enough, so I just d**ked around, socialising etc and didn't really apply myself as well as I could. I made the conscious decision to change that in the second and third years, and came out with a first-class degree. I chose not to go on to do a post-grad, as the course had focused my interest in the music industry. Before long I'd moved into my friend's flat in London, and was living on his sofa whilst interning at a record label... That was the beginning of an unpredictable, yet creative career that I'm happy with. I now have a flat in London and live pretty comfortably.

 

Without the degree I would never have had that first opportunity, but most importantly, I learned some of my most valuable skills whilst undertaking the course, all of which are invaluable in what I do now. It sounds like a tired trope, but it changed my way of thinking. 

 

Having said that, since the first couple of job interviews, I've barely been asked about my degree. Go figure. 

[RonnieTodger]

It depends on what you do.

 

I came through an artwork/graphic design apprenticeship and I'm the youngest non-junior designer at my place of work. 

On the flipside and this is a huge negative, I can't find a job specification that doesn't require a graphic design degree and understandably so. I'm probably just as good at my job as anybody else here, but I don't know if I have a broader skill set that could be applied elsewhere.

 

Definitely wish I went to uni, if not just for the laughs and change of scenery. Starting to consider something else entirely or a graphic design night-school. 

[Countryfox]

2 minutes ago, RoboFox said:

 

Having said that, since the first couple of job interviews, I've barely been asked about my degree. Go figure. 

But maybe the fact that you had got it (the degree) got you the interviews in the first place ...

[RoboFox]

Just now, Countryfox said:

But maybe the fact that you had got it (the degree) got you the interviews in the first place ...

Absolutely.

[Jattdogg]

I went to university and studied math/stats/computer science as my dad (who worked as a machinist/tool die maker) told me to not go his route due to the job insecurity he experienced here in canada back in the 80s/90s and early 2000s. 

 

I realised that i didnt want to do my masters in math so worked in IT since.

 

I think the experience of uni taught me a great deal. The courses  themselves  (IT ones only) are something you dont need to learn at a university. I do think having a degree in the field has helped me in my career and moving up the ladder.

 

I would say there are many jobs that dont require university and get paid well or careers where you dont need uni to climb the ladder. University isnt for everyone and doesnt necessarily mean more salary.

 

The only thing i would have loved is to work for a few years (before going to university) to see what i truly enjoyed and disliked . I think if i had done so i wouldnt have gone into IT. Mid life crisis  time in my late 30s lol.

 

Asking a 16 - 18 year old to make a career choice is not super wise. What did we know about the real world then.   Nothing! Sure if you were a geeky book worm perhaps you knew it made sense but i wasn't nor were many of my mates. 

 

University and trades both are very important in todays world. We have to do a better job at finding what works for our youth and let them know that either choice is excellent  (provided its not floral arraingments or sewing 101) lol. I think schools need to do a better job at making high school  more relevant to the working world. Doing  co-op job placements in different fields etc.

 

 

 

[Wymsey]

I regret not working during the three years of University (during the term-time, not summer holidays), like it's been advised more and more for students to do now.

If I had, reckon the years after would've been much smoother personally.

 

It appears 18-21 year-olds are having more training opportunities choices to choose from than those in their 20's and 30's.

Would hate to be a 40/50-year-old, in no career and seeing plentiful of training/development opportunities for the very young ones and thinking they have the advantage of that to help them.

 

[boots60]

You plan your conversation to impress the college bar 
Just talking about your Mother and Daddy's Jaguar 
Wear your political T-shirt and sacred college scarf 
Discussing the worlds situation but just for a laugh

 

They even had brains in Cov, once upon a time.

[Podgeyrogers]

A young man that isn't going to follow medicine/science/classic subjects, then no. Get a trade, there is a massive shortage of skills out there and a great opportunity to earn money in the years to come. For a young lady, then yes, stay away from child birth for as many years as possible would be my advice.

 

[David Guiza]

Firstly I would like to say that intelligent and reasoned discussion about the subject is great, as opposed to one camp just pointing out the rhetoric of 'I went to the University of life, students are just dossers' and the other just assuming that anybody whom didn't go to University are thick.

 

With regards to my own experience, as a 25 year old it wasn't too long ago since I was in the shoes of the a-level and GCSE result kids of the past week or so. From memory I wasn't pigeon holed into University at all, I just happened to fall into studying law at a-level and then it sort of escalated from there; and I went to a bog standard state school in Birstall so I'd like to think that my experience wasn't an anomaly. For me, University is what you make of it, regardless of your course. It can be more than just a means to an end. Many learn more about themselves, life and what they want to do with their careers in the 3 years at University than their entire school life along with gaining a degree out of the process too. Writing it off because of the cost is too easy of an excuse in my opinion, just because somebody isn't studying law or medicine doesn't mean that their University experience won't help shape their career and person for the better. 

 

The bigger issue for me however is long term vision at school for careers of all areas. I remember a 'careers day' when I was about 16/17 which basically featured the army, University or a handful of other options. I, along with so many of my friends, had absolutely no idea what to do with our lives between the ages of 14 - early twenties and I think a large part of that problem comes form a lack of direction from the powers that be at school. Only a week or two of compulsory work experience over most young peoples education and very little exposure to careers of all areas is something that needs to be looked at. 

 

[ajthefox]

On 22/08/2017 at 19:06, ScouseFox said:

from the age of about 13-14 schools (and then colleges) make out that there is simply two options come the age of 18;

 

- go to university. any university. any course. this is option a, the successful option.

- don't go to university. no matter what a levels you have or what plans you have to do in your life, without applying to university you will die, probably the day after results day. 

 

 

it's a bit warped really. i'm 23 now, work in a company and job role where everyone else has a degree (literally don't think there's one person on my team who has a degree that has anything to do with our job, mind) but i started at the bottom of said company and worked my way up, earning not taking instead of going to uni and joining half way up the ladder. 

 

each to their own, but degrees are pointless unless they are very good degrees, and i'm not paying 50 odd grand for "the uni experience". 

 

edit - "very good degrees" as in degrees in fields that you aim to work in, like loveday said. 

Nailed on the head for me, and sadly this is far and away the biggest issue.

 

So many students are pushed into uni to their detriment, but the schools are happy so long as they look good because X% of leavers are doing degrees and the unis are happy as they continue to make money. I know so many people who went to uni because it was just the done thing and they didn't know what other options they had to explore. It worked out well for some of them (although not because their degrees were all that useful) and it went horribly for others. What they have in common is a stack of debt that hasn't got them anywhere.

 

 

 

[Lovejoy]

11 hours ago, Captain... said:

The con is the amount they charge in fees, the legislation says up to £9000, but very few courses, if any cost less, if there are certain resource heavy courses that make it worth the £9000 then fair enough, but most aren't and I think universities need to be made to justify why a course costs £9000 and not just charge everyone the maximum because they can.

As a non graduate who as part of my job interviews and hires grads, I think the biggest con is the lack of education on what the real world is like and that a degree will get you an opportunity, not a divine right to take over the world.

[Harry96]

Would anyone recommend doing a sports degree. Would love to work in football as a sports nutritionist.  

[Merging Cultures]

It might be an unpopular opinion but I don't think everyone should go to uni.

I work in an academic environment, that requires that sort of training. For more practical skilled labour, apprenticeships are perfect.

And there shouldn't be a difference in pay. Pay should be based on the value you bring to the company.

[Merging Cultures]

As Uni attendance increases, what will happen when everyone has a degree?

In my sector, international development, you have to have a Master's to be even considered for the most basic jobs. To progress further you have to have 2/3 years' experience living in a developing country.

Undergrad degrees have already lost a lot of value.

[Rincewind]

7 minutes ago, Merging Cultures said:

It might be an unpopular opinion but I don't think everyone should go to uni.

I work in an academic environment, that requires that sort of training. For more practical skilled labour, apprenticeships are perfect.

And there shouldn't be a difference in pay. Pay should be based on the value you bring to the company.

Would you not agree that every employee has a value to a company from the tea lady to the director? If the tea lady is not doing her job right then it would not leave a good impression if an important meeting was taking place. If the post boy does not take the days letters to the PO in time it could mean Same as the receptionist who needs to be polite. The shop floor worker and the cleaner and CEO that decides which direction the company goes. A break in the chain could mean trouble.

[Merging Cultures]

12 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

Would you not agree that every employee has a value to a company from the tea lady to the director? If the tea lady is not doing her job right then it would not leave a good impression if an important meeting was taking place. If the post boy does not take the days letters to the PO in time it could mean Same as the receptionist who needs to be polite. The shop floor worker and the cleaner and CEO that decides which direction the company goes. A break in the chain could mean trouble.

Of course every employee has value to the company, but the tea lady or post boy doesn't bring as much value to the company as the Director. The Director decides the strategy, manages a team that implements the strategy, which should lead to growth in the value of the company. If someone doesn't get their tea, or the mail isn't delivered (most things come via email now anyway!), then the value of the company isn't going to suffer, but if the strategy is wrong or the Director is rubbish at managing his teams, then the company won't grow and will likely decrease in value.

 

Do you agree that nearly anyone could make a cup of tea or bring the post around, but that only a few could effectively lead a company? So, it is also a function of supply of the skills. The unfortunate thing is that a number of CEOs underperform and sometimes ruin good companies and yet still get paid a fortune.

 

How does the cleaner decide the direction of a company? They are often outsourced, they have no impact on the company the offices of which they are cleaning.