That “Handball” last night

[Carl the Llama]

 

[Captain...]

2 hours ago, rachhere said:

That’s weird. I am in the states at the moment and watched it live on NBC. The commentators were up in arms (no pun intended!) about the incident, saying definite penalty and questioning the credibility of the ref. Were they saying he’s just worked up from Championship matches?

 

They also had a lot of praise for Leicester both before and after the match. Said we pushed Arsenal the most out of any non top 6 side. Said the factors which saw us lose were simply lack of penalty, lack of second yellow and also Ozil. They were gushing over James Maddison, seemed to see him as the messiah. 

 

Was quite nice balanced commentary actually - made a pleasant change 

It wasn’t the commentators it was the pundits in the studio at half time. Robbie Mustoe I think.

[orangecity23]

It's definitely a penalty, the law states that there has to be "movement" towards the ball, and you can't get much more movement than starting on the floor, jumping into the air and hitting it with your hand. He's going for a header and botched it, making sure N'didi doesn't get the header in. There's certainly a hell of a lot more movement towards the ball and a much larger distance between the player and the ball than there has been for either of the 2 penalties we have conceeded for handball this season. Amartey slightly moved his shoulder at Old Trafford after a close range deflection and everyone (in the media) was adamant it was a penalty, likewise when Ricardo got the ball blasted at him at close range against Bournemouth. EDIT: also, if N'didi has "made" him hit the ball with his hand, why didn't the ref simply give a free kick to Arsenal for a foul by N'didi?

 

The handball rule has to be the least consistently applied rule in the entire game, the same refs will interpret similar incidents wildly differently within a single game. The vagueness of the rule leaves it wide open to the refs doing whatever they feel like, and funnily enough, they normally feel like giving the Top 6 clubs a massive ****ing helping hand whenever they can (Ozil was allowed to watch a ball fly 60 yards through to the air and control it with his arm in the buildup to an Arsenal winner against us a year or so back - strange how max distance + obvious motion towards ball wasn't a handball then, eh). The game against Liverpool a few years back when faceball and the Simpson point blank arms at his sides pen happened should have been a ****ing scandal, but with a media packed to the gills with ex Liverpool players and other "Big team" alumni and sycophants, it never gets mentioned unless one of "their" teams is on the receiving end.

 

Ultimately, the buck should stop with Fifa, and the rules should be clarified and clear guidance issued openly, to refs, players and fans, in unambiguous terms, as to what constitutes a handball. Distance should be clarified with an actual ****ing number, and VAR should be used to ensure that the horrendous mistakes like faceball are a thing of the past. But to get VAR in the Prem, a certain number of clubs will need to agree to it, and I can't imagine who could possibly vote against that (cough Spurs, cough Man U, couch Arsenal, cough cough Liverpool)

Edited 23 October 2018 by orangecity23

[weller54]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

 

That joke is top qualitee!! 

[Dan]

It's just pathetic how bad the refereeing is at the minute. Cannot believe in the integrity.

[Guest]

VAR

[Magictv]

I actually think VAR wouldn't help at all here. It's not like the ref didn't see it, it's just a refusal to give decisions against the "big" teams. Can't see how VAR would fix that problem.

[ARTY_FOX]

21 hours ago, Captain... said:

I’ve seen so many people moaning about us not getting a penalty. Watch it back Holding jumps for the ball and Wilf heads his hand into the ball it’s not a penalty. You can’t headbutt someone’s arm onto the ball and claim a penalty. I saw it on my stream and the pundits on my American stream said the same thing, no penalty. No idea what the sky pundits said. Can’t find a decent video of it but please post one to prove me wrong.

 

Don’t get me wrong I wish he’d given it, but you can’t blame the ref.

It hits his hand before wilf shoves his head into the arm. Most obvious handball you’ll ever see. 

[Always Next Year]

22 hours ago, Captain... said:

I’ve seen so many people moaning about us not getting a penalty. Watch it back Holding jumps for the ball and Wilf heads his hand into the ball it’s not a penalty. You can’t headbutt someone’s arm onto the ball and claim a penalty. I saw it on my stream and the pundits on my American stream said the same thing, no penalty. No idea what the sky pundits said. Can’t find a decent video of it but please post one to prove me wrong.

 

Don’t get me wrong I wish he’d given it, but you can’t blame the ref.

Make sure that you have them for the next game???

[Captain...]

2 hours ago, ARTY_FOX said:

It hits his hand before wilf shoves his head into the arm. Most obvious handball you’ll ever see. 

It really doesn’t.

 

This has the best view I’ve found second replay clearly hits Wilf and hand bounces towards ball:

 

https://streamable.com/8brqe

 

Also note Wilf barely appeals as he knows what happened.

Edited 24 October 2018 by Captain...

[Captain...]

13 hours ago, orangecity23 said:

EDIT: also, if N'didi has "made" him hit the ball with his hand, why didn't the ref simply give a free kick to Arsenal for a foul by N'didi?

Because it wasn’t a foul by Ndidi 2 people competing for a ball will make contact. It was more of a foul on Ndidi as Holding was bringing his arm down onto him. 

 

See link: https://streamable.com/8brqe

 

I agree reed with the rest of your post the current wording and application of the handball rule is a joke.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Magictv said:

I actually think VAR wouldn't help at all here. It's not like the ref didn't see it, it's just a refusal to give decisions against the "big" teams. Can't see how VAR would fix that problem.

The refs on the VAR wouldn't have realised he had seen it because it is so obviously a hand ball. they'd be in his ear saying "peno" and then he'd just follow them. He simply lacked balls against a big team and knew he could get away with it. VAR holds refs to a higher level of responsibility and as he has no balls anyway he'd have gone along with the VAR refs.

 

VAR decisions need to have greater powers anyway.

[st albans fox]

2 hours ago, Captain... said:

It really doesn’t.

 

This has the best view I’ve found second replay clearly hits Wilf and hand bounces towards ball:

 

https://streamable.com/8brqe

 

Also note Wilf barely appeals as he knows what happened.

are you still bashing away on this ………… wilf didn't appeal because he didn't see what happened to the ball - he must have assumed holding headed it ….. every lcfc player in shot appealed and holding looked guilty as fook afterwards. no arsenal fans in my office think it wasn't a pen ………..

 

 

[FireFox]

The amount of people here who don't know the rules or are so biased that they think VAR would have given a penalty...

 

Watch the replay and ignore who the players are and what teams they play for. Two opposing players go for the ball, and one player hits the other's arm into the ball. The players' arms were not in unnatural positions, and the player did not deliberately make contact with the ball with his hand.

[Magictv]

1 hour ago, FIF said:

The refs on the VAR wouldn't have realised he had seen it because it is so obviously a hand ball. they'd be in his ear saying "peno" and then he'd just follow them. He simply lacked balls against a big team and knew he could get away with it. VAR holds refs to a higher level of responsibility and as he has no balls anyway he'd have gone along with the VAR refs.

 

VAR decisions need to have greater powers anyway.

If the on field refs don't have the balls to give decisions against big teams I can't see the VAR ones (it's the same group of individuals as the on field refs are selected from right?) being any different.

[Captain...]

On 23/10/2018 at 13:28, Trav Le Bleu said:

@Captain... 0

 

Rest of FT infinity

 

It’s at least Captain... 4

Rest of FT: Infinity

 

The come back is on

[Trav Le Bleu]

37 minutes ago, Captain... said:

It’s at least Captain... 4

Rest of FT: Infinity

 

The come back is on

You keep kidding yourself.

 

 

 

 

On the plus side, nice to see some never-say-die attitude in this place.

Edited 24 October 2018 by Trav Le Bleu

[whoareyaaa]

11 hours ago, Captain... said:

Because it wasn’t a foul by Ndidi 2 people competing for a ball will make contact. It was more of a foul on Ndidi as Holding was bringing his arm down onto him. 

 

See link: https://streamable.com/8brqe

 

I agree reed with the rest of your post the current wording and application of the handball rule is a joke.

If it's not handball then its an elbow to the head as Holding's arms slams on Nididi's head and reflects back and hits the ball we should have had two penos !!

 

not to mention that the hand has stopped the ball falling to Nididi and rolling back to the keeper  

 

clear as day

Edited 24 October 2018 by whoareyaaa

[mad biker]

9 hours ago, FireFox said:

The amount of people here who don't know the rules or are so biased that they think VAR would have given a penalty...

 

Watch the replay and ignore who the players are and what teams they play for. Two opposing players go for the ball, and one player hits the other's arm into the ball. The players' arms were not in unnatural positions, and the player did not deliberately make contact with the ball with his hand.

Are you actually for real ?????? 

[Bert]

On 23/10/2018 at 13:26, Fox seen in Norwich said:

If Holding wasn’t already on a yellow the ref probably gives it.

Personally I think it was not intentional so shouldn’t have warranted a second yellow, especially with the double jeopardy rule

A pen it should have been, ref bottled it as probably plays on his mind he should send holding off too but as it’s the 1st half and one of the top 6 vs lttle Leicester he chooses not too 

 

VAR required

Hate comments like this and that being justification as why it wasn’t given. 

 

First and foremost. It’s handball. Whether he’s on a booking or not, that doesn’t make it right to not award the correct decision. Morgan has been sent off twice with a SBO this season. Surely he shouldn’t have been sent off if this is the rule they’re applying? 

 

Theres no question this is a penalty and a second yellow. Anyone saying different is saying so purely to be different or argumentative. 

[Bert]

11 hours ago, Captain... said:

It really doesn’t.

 

This has the best view I’ve found second replay clearly hits Wilf and hand bounces towards ball:

 

https://streamable.com/8brqe

 

Also note Wilf barely appeals as he knows what happened.

Or Wilf has jumped up and closes his eyes so can’t see what’s happened.... 

[FireFox]

7 hours ago, mad biker said:

Are you actually for real ?????? 

Are you? Are the majority in here?

 

Watch the replay, the last angle, which is basically what the ref saw @ :48 https://streamable.com/8brqe

 

• Two opposing players go for the ball. Neither of their arms were really in an unnatural position. They are both attempting to head the ball.
• Ndidi's arm and hand goes across Holding's upper chest. (Could be seen as a foul but no-call probably best.)
• Holding's arm collides with Ndidi's head. (Could be seen as a penalty was it not for the previous arm from Ndidi, so again no-call probably best.)
• Holding's arm is redirected and Ndidi follows through a "heading" motion. (It's not really clear if Holding's arm simply bounced or was redirected by the attempted header, but regardless...)
• Holding's hand makes contact with the ball, but at this point, "the movement of the hand towards the ball" is in no way deliberate. (So again, no-call probably best.)

 

Quote

Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into consideration:

• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement

So explain how VAR would have given a penalty.

Edited 25 October 2018 by FireFox

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, FireFox said:

Are you? Are the majority in here?

 

Watch the replay, the last angle, which is basically what the ref saw @ :48 https://streamable.com/8brqe

 

• Two opposing players go for the ball. Neither of their arms were really in an unnatural position. They are both attempting to head the ball.
• Ndidi's arm and hand goes across Holding's upper chest. (Could be seen as a foul but no-call probably best.)
• Holding's arm collides with Ndidi's head. (Could be seen as a penalty was it not for the previous arm from Ndidi, so again no-call probably best.)
• Holding's arm is redirected and Ndidi follows through a "heading" motion. (It's not really clear if Holding's arm simply bounced or was redirected by the attempted header, but regardless...)
• Holding's hand makes contact with the ball, but at this point, "the movement of the hand towards the ball" is in no way deliberate. (So again, no-call probably best.)

 

So explain how VAR would have given a penalty.

You are over analysing it ...... it’s a pen and it would have been a pen on VAR. if your hand is above your head and the ball strikes it inside the box then a pen is always given.  I haven’t seen any pundit or ex ref saying it isn’t a pen .....just a few pedants and the captain !

[Footballwipe]

It was a penalty. I'm at a loss as to why the OP is still vainly attempting to keep his integrity by continually arguing that it wasn't. 

[CosbehFox]

8 hours ago, FireFox said:

So explain how VAR would have given a penalty.

Judging from the World Cup, where a penalty was given for literally every ball against hand. It would have been a penalty.