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[Alf Bentley]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

I've not seen the figures yet but yeah appears about ten Tories voting for the motion.

 

I don't think they should be expecting to be the local candidate when we do go to the polls

 

I'd say the same for the Labour or other Opposition MPs who must have helped the Tory majority defeat the motion. 

[Nickfosse]

3 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I'd say the same for the Labour or other Opposition MPs who must have helped the Tory majority defeat the motion. 

I’d imagine the likes of Roger Godsiff and Kate Hoey helped them out Alf. 

Sadly no chance of getting rid of Roger as much as we’d love to in Birmingham. 

Edited 12 June 2019 by Nickfosse

[Alf Bentley]

3 minutes ago, Nickfosse said:

I’d imagine the likes of Roger Godsiff and Kate Hoey helped them out Alf. 

Sadly no chance of getting rid of Roger as much as we’d love to in Birmingham. 

 

Likely candidates, but there must have been several more. I think with the DUP, the Tories now have about a majority of 5 and at least 5 Tories apparently supported the move.

If it passed with a majority of 11, that suggests that about 8 Opposition MPs went the other way....though there are 1 or 2 Brexity independents floating about.

 

I'd suggest that Kate Hoey should join the Tories or Brexit Party, but suspect her views are too right-wing for them. 

[Nickfosse]

Just now, Alf Bentley said:

 

Likely candidates, but there must have been several more. I think with the DUP, the Tories now have about a majority of 5 and at least 5 Tories apparently supported the move.

If it passed with a majority of 11, that suggests that about 8 Opposition MPs went the other way....though there are 1 or 2 Brexity independents floating about.

 

I'd suggest that Kate Hoey should join the Tories or Brexit Party, but suspect her views are too right-wing for them. 

Same with Godsiff ?

[Guest MattP]

Imagine when the day finally comes when Labour tells Dennis Skinner to join the Tories

[Alf Bentley]

49 minutes ago, MattP said:

Imagine when the day finally comes when Labour tells Dennis Skinner to join the Tories

 

I wouldn't like to be the man assigned that duty....

 

He was a miner for years as a young man and, even in his 80s, I bet he could still pack a punch - and would be inclined to deliver one, in response to such an instruction. 

[Guest MattP]

Just now, Alf Bentley said:

I wouldn't like to be the man assigned that duty....

 

He was a miner for years as a young man and, even in his 80s, I bet he could still pack a punch - and would be inclined to deliver one, in response to such an instruction. 

 

The ten Tories btw...(usual suspects)

• Guto Bebb
• Ken Clarke
• Jonathan Djanogly
• Justine Greening
• Dominic Grieve
• Sam Gyimah
• Phillip Lee
• Oliver Letwin
• Antoinette Sandbach
• Caroline Spelman

[Strokes]

12 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

The ten Tories btw...(usual suspects)

• Guto Bebb
• Ken Clarke
• Jonathan Djanogly
• Justine Greening
• Dominic Grieve
• Sam Gyimah
• Phillip Lee
• Oliver Letwin
• Antoinette Sandbach
• Caroline Spelman

I was expecting Nicky Morgan to be amongst them.

[Alf Bentley]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

The ten Tories btw...(usual suspects)

• Guto Bebb
• Ken Clarke
• Jonathan Djanogly
• Justine Greening
• Dominic Grieve
• Sam Gyimah
• Phillip Lee
• Oliver Letwin
• Antoinette Sandbach
• Caroline Spelman

 

Members of a new One Nation Conservative Party, led by Rory Stewart and set up after Boris completes the job of turning the Tories into the old UKIP?

Maybe the Change UK trio could come back to them, tails between their legs.... ?

Can probably exclude Clarke, actually. He'd probably stay put for sentimental reasons at his age.....not sure about Heseltine, though.

 

The more it looks as if Boris is going to win and turn the Tories into a No Deal Party to rival Farage, the more internal stress there'll be within Labour, too, over its policy that is now bleeding votes to the LDs.

Both big parties could easily split by autumn...though maybe after any general election, given the vagaries of the electoral system. 

[urban.spaceman]

Is Boris PM yet?

[fuchsntf]

If you lot contrive to vote Boris Johnson anywhere near a ministerial office or even PM...

I will be happy to tugg UK,even deeper  out into the Atlantic and pull the plug...

 

The other difficulty is..how after the Brexit-carnaval,can you trust any would be. Wanna-be modern UK politician,now running in high office,or in the shadow-seats...Brexit..leave / remain, campaign and Issue has not left behind any dead soldier campaigners,or one leading hero or clever politician that the country could lean on! Or use has a martyre to stand for..!!  The tolerance & guile of the

UK electorate has been squeezed dry..

May should be ashamed and goes out in political infamy has an idiot .And no sympathies...and I have always looked to see something to defend  in the likes LCFC manager Taylor/ Holloways..

But T.May leaves me cold!!!

Holloway should take on PM with Taylor has foreign minister..!!!!

[Legend_in_blue]

So assuming these voting figures of 309 and 298 from today remain as they are at October 31st but you put those 10 Tories back in line with their party and put the 8 Labour back in with the rest of their party, this becomes 311 and 296.  

 

A vote of no confidence in the government, which I am sure is going to happen, will take a total of 8 Tory MPs.

 

The numbers aren't there for anything else.  General election it is then.  

[Grebfromgrebland]

3 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Any detail on how they got that majority, Matt?

 

I see that about 5 Tory MPs rebelled, enough to defeat the govt after the Change UK defections etc.

Even with the DUP, they only have a majority of about 5 now, don't they? 

 

That suggests that perhaps as many as 10 Opposition MPs backed the Govt or at least abstained, doesn't it?

I heard that several labour MPs in leave voting constituencies backed the government as they were scared of losing their seats / just trying to represent their people.

 

 

[Trav Le Bleu]

Interesting fact.

 

People say we shouldn't have a second referendum as it's "undemocratic" and yet, since the decision to leave the EU, we're going to have had two PMs who weren't voted into office.

 

Which will make 3 in 12 years. 

Edited 12 June 2019 by Trav Le Bleu

[Buce]

Universal credit delays a factor in sex work, government admits

 

The government has dropped its hardline refusal to accept that destitution caused by five-week waits for universal credit payments has been a major factor in forcing some women to turn to sex work.

Giving evidence to the work and pensions select committee, the minister for family support, Will Quince, apologised for a memo his department sent to the committee last month and said it “did not very well reflect my views on this issue”.

The memo dismissed evidence that universal credit was a cause of increased numbers of women turning to sex work as anecdotal. It said the phenomenon was influenced by a range of factors, from drug addiction and the rise of AirBnB to EU immigration.

 

Quince told the committee he had changed his views after hearing accounts from four women who gave evidence of how impoverishment related to universal credit issues had led them to take up escort and brothel work.

“Those very brave testimonies of the young women who have gone through the most horrific of experiences gave me a better understanding through their lived experiences. What it showed me more than anything is we need to better understand this area,” he said.

A transcript of the private committee hearing in May included a testimony from M, a brothel worker. She said the fact that drug and alcohol drove people into survival sex workdid not mean that universal credit had not caused “a really big influx”.

She said: “It is particularly bad with universal credit because we have seen these huge waits, but the whole welfare system is stacked against us and it is pushing people into survival sex work.

“It is the long wait, it is the payments in particular that I think are really dangerous because when we apply for things like this we are in crisis already, like we don’t have the ability to wait, and sex work is the only real job you can go out and earn money that night.”

T, a care worker, who went into escort work after using food banks during a six-week wait for her first universal credit payment, said: “It is horrible to say, but it is the easiest thing to keep us girls alive.”

Another witness, K, said she had worked out she would be £200 a month worse off on universal credit. “I will sell my body. I want to tell this committee that there are a lot of girls out there just like me,” she said.

The committee also heard an unexpectedly positive, if qualified, endorsement of the recent report by the UN rapporteur Philip Alston, who last month called austerity cuts the “systematic immiseration of a significant part of the British population”.

Amber Rudd, the work and pensions secretary, responded at the time by saying the report was politically biased. She alleged that Alston did not do enough research, having only visiting the UK for 11 days, and said the government would complain to the UN.

Donna Ward, the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) senior civil servant responsible for children, families and disadvantage, told the committee chair, Frank Field, that it had fact-checked Alston’s report, which had in passing referred to a rise in survival sex.

“He made a lot of good points. It was factually correct,” she said. “I think where the secretary of state took issue with it, and where I as a civil servant can’t be involved, was the political interpretation of a lot of what’s happened.

“But in terms of the facts, in terms of austerity, cuts to local government, in terms of the reliance that we have on the labour market and the risks we face if there is a recession – all of those things were really good points that we have taken on board, and we should take on board.”

[fuchsntf]

Says more about today's society..and some women's attitudes .

[bovril]

1 hour ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Interesting fact.

 

People say we shouldn't have a second referendum as it's "undemocratic" and yet, since the decision to leave the EU, we're going to have had two PMs who weren't voted into office.

 

Which will make 3 in 12 years. 

I'm not sure any word has been used and abused as much as 'democracy' over the last few years. 

[Carl the Llama]

1 hour ago, fuchsntf said:

Says more about today's society..and some women's attitudes .

Mate wtf.  Maybe you've just worded your point badly but it sounds like you're blaming these women for taking desperate measures to ensure some kind of income while our benefits system fails to work adequately.

[urban.spaceman]

4 hours ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Interesting fact.

 

People say we shouldn't have a second referendum as it's "undemocratic" and yet, since the decision to leave the EU, we're going to have had two PMs who weren't voted into office.

 

Which will make 3 in 12 years. 

Technically we don’t vote for a Prime Minister - we elect MPs to represent our constituency’s interests in parliament, who are generally members of a political party. The party with the most seats wins and its leader can form a government, either with its own party if they’re first past the post, or in a coalition. 

 

Personally I think we should do away with the system altogether and become an anarcho syndicalist commune where we all just take it in turns to act as a sort of executive office for the week. 

[Kopfkino]

5 hours ago, bovril said:

I'm not sure any word has been used and abused as much as 'democracy' over the last few years. 

My favourite at the moment is to completely suspend democracy and leave everyone without representation because democracy needs to be upheld. 

[Guest]

On 11/06/2019 at 20:10, SouthStandUpperTier said:

You live in France don't you @FIF? How does it work over there if you want to watch/listen to BBC content?

I just turn my freeview satellite box on. More to the point  though TF1 (French TV) is taken from you as a separate charge alongside your income tax. so pretty much the same as in the UK. You get a bill if you have a TV or even when you buy a TV.

 

 

On 12/06/2019 at 00:35, yorkie1999 said:

Hang on a mo. We’re not on about me paying for choices , we’re on about the bbc charging old folk for their licence, which they previously got for free. Now they are being forced to pay for it and have no choice.

 

Old folk didn't get it for free, the government subsidised it. Which seems a fair way to go about it. Complain to your government not the BBC. They have a choice. throw the TV and radio out. ridiculous but under your idea of choice it's still a choice.

 

 

22 hours ago, Brizzle Fox said:

And this is the crux of the matter here. Johnson may be morally and ideologically bankrupt but for some unfathomable reason he still tends to connect with enough of the public as he appears a bit bonkers and they've seen him on the telly a few times. He's a brand and that's what politics seems to be about these days. 

 

I watched Rory Stewart's launch event at the Southbank last night and he was brilliant. Destroyed the negativity and fantasy politics of so many of the other candidates. Looks a bit weird but extremely charismatic. A different level but of course has no chance at this time. 

 

He of course knows this and is playing a long game as at some point once the Brexit cluster**** is behind us, politics will surely move back towards the centre ground and this is when him and others like him across both main parties will come back into their own. 

 

Well I hope so anyway 

 

The celeb generation has finally won through. I guess the UK is going to get what it deserves. I feel sorry for you all.

 

22 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

We're in a sorry state if anybody's vote would be swung by a serial and insistent liar who acts like a fool and whose 'values' have been demonstrated to not be based on his personal beliefs regarding what's best for the country but what he thinks will benefit his career.

 

On the flip side does anybody have any idea why Labour and Brexit would benefit so strongly from Javid being the Tory leader?  I can't think of any reason why so many Conservative voters would go AWOL in that scenario... 

 

It does seem that racism is the only explanation.

 

22 hours ago, davieG said:

People are more interested and attracted to vacuous celebrity.

Welcome to the new UK and possibly the future of Western civilisation. 

 

 

17 hours ago, MattP said:

The European Union must be seething with us to be honest.

 

Granted another extension and all we've done is gone on holiday, forced the PM to resign and then go back on holiday.

 

Patience for another extension is surely being severely tested.

Amazing isn't it? We had those few days of panic discussions - resulting in nothing but getting an extentsion and then absolutely nothing. It's a disgrace. They shouldn't be allowed a holiday - they shouldn't be allowed out of the house of commons until they can sort out what they are going to do.

 

It really is disgusting.

 

 

14 hours ago, Foxin_Mad said:

But Erm Jermey Corbyn...……………and a Socialist Utopia ala Venezuela.

 

Why note vote for a party with a leader that has a brain instead?!

 

You seem to be inferring that the Conservative party is that party. Corbyn or Johnson - there's still hope for the Liberals and Greens.

[Buce]

5 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

Technically we don’t vote for a Prime Minister - we elect MPs to represent our constituency’s interests in parliament, who are generally members of a political party. The party with the most seats wins and its leader can form a government, either with its own party if they’re first past the post, or in a coalition. 

 

Personally I think we should do away with the system altogether and become an anarcho syndicalist commune where we all just take it in turns to act as a sort of executive office for the week. 

 

Technically, yeah, but in practice we very much vote for the leader of a party - just look at the wildly differing numbers on the graph @MattP (?) posted a couple of pages back that showed voting intentions under each of the Tory leadership candidates. And I suspect Labour's numbers would look a lot healthier under a different leader, even if the manifesto was unchanged.

 

So, I agree with Trav - it is undemocratic, certainly against the spirit of our democracy, if not the letter of it, and any such change should be ratified by the electorate.

[Nick]

God we need a change in system. Let’s stop voting for parties and manifestos full of horse shit promises.

 

Id prefer to vote for an individual leader and individual ministers with a specialist background in their chosen area.

 

The new PM should publish the ringfenced budget for each department area (pre-vote) and let expert candidates put themselves forward and we’ll vote for a person and a deputy person for each role.

 

We then get ministers for transport, environment, justice, education, business etc who are leaders in their field not some **** on a gravy train who was minister for rural affairs last week and the home fracking secretary the next.

 

It then becomes less about party and more about say a six year plan to get something done by people who know stuff rather than one of Gove’s Tory think tanks who have ideas based on how they can grow their bank balances.

[Buce]

21 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

God we need a change in system. Let’s stop voting for parties and manifestos full of horse shit promises.

 

Id prefer to vote for an individual leader and individual ministers with a specialist background in their chosen area.

 

The new PM should publish the ringfenced budget for each department area (pre-vote) and let expert candidates put themselves forward and we’ll vote for a person and a deputy person for each role.

 

We then get ministers for transport, environment, justice, education, business etc who are leaders in their field not some **** on a gravy train who was minister for rural affairs last week and the home fracking secretary the next.

 

It then becomes less about party and more about say a six year plan to get something done by people who know stuff rather than one of Gove’s Tory think tanks who have ideas based on how they can grow their bank balances.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy

[Nick]

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy

Yes, the only current technocratic influence are government advisory boards and the odd MP with a business background- both of which are ignored by political party aspirations and whips to ensure party line narratives win over meaningful long term change.