LCFC Announce Partnership With Stonewall

[ozleicester]

24 minutes ago, Sly said:

Sorry, I understand gender gender is a spectrum thing. I actually meant sexes. Surely you’re born male or female. 
 

What gender you define yourself from that is up to you. 

well no, (IMO), you may well be born with genitalia that is assumed to be male or female... but your genitalia does not make who you are.

 

For example, people have a penis and who see themselves as male... wouldnt cease to be a male if that penis is accidentally lopped off...would they? 

[Sly]

8 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

well no, (IMO), you may well be born with genitalia that is assumed to be male or female... but your genitalia does not make who you are.

 

For example, people have a penis and who see themselves as male... wouldnt cease to be a male if that penis is accidentally lopped off...would they? 

In my opinion they would.
 

However, should they wish to undertake a sex change, then that’s different, they’ve opted to change. 

 

You’re defined as one of the other. Simple example, you don’t see 70 odd different toilets. It’s male, or female. 
 

I understand it’s a controversial subject and people will have different opinions. 
 

Like I stated originally, it doesn’t bother me, I just disagree with the new fangeled way of labelling everything and then having it constantly promoted to the point it gets irritating. 

[Steven]

41 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

well no, (IMO), you may well be born with genitalia that is assumed to be male or female... but your genitalia does not make who you are.

 

For example, people have a penis and who see themselves as male... wouldnt cease to be a male if that penis is accidentally lopped off...would they? 

 

You mean get married?

[ozleicester]

8 hours ago, Sly said:

In my opinion they would.
 

However, should they wish to undertake a sex change, then that’s different, they’ve opted to change. 

 

You’re defined as one of the other. Simple example, you don’t see 70 odd different toilets. It’s male, or female. 
 

I understand it’s a controversial subject and people will have different opinions. 
 

Like I stated originally, it doesn’t bother me, I just disagree with the new fangeled way of labelling everything and then having it constantly promoted to the point it gets irritating. 

so the only thing that defines you as a man is a Penis?

 

Absolutely, different opinions are actually a good thing because we can all learn from others.

 

I would suggest this reduces the labelling, eg, your bathroom at home doesnt have a label on it, it is a gender non specific toilet, free to be used by whomever feels the need irrelevant of genitalia.

 

[ozleicester]

7 hours ago, Steven said:

 

You mean get married?

you are John Bobbit and i claim my $5

[Vardinio'sCat]

9 hours ago, Sly said:

Sorry, I understand gender gender is a spectrum thing. I actually meant sexes. Surely you’re born male or female. 
 

What gender you define yourself from that is up to you. 

 

I don't think that is factually correct, although I'm certainly no expert in these matters. I also struggle with understanding the new terms and issues we have to think about in the modern world, but I'm relatively relaxed about that, and am happy to be corrected if some of the language I might use is old-fashioned and inappropriate,

 

https://www.intersexequality.com/how-common-is-intersex-in-humans/#targetText=Some groups use an old,Sterling%2C of Brown University*.

 

I don't have a massive amount else to say because I don't really want to offend anyone, but this is FT so here goes. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are we only singing about Soyuncu's tackle to show how comfortable we are with such things now?  

 

Pink shirts/ Stonewall/ Caglar's todger/ Pride. It just seems like a moment to me, and apart from the song, a welcome one.

 

 

 

[Guest BlueBrett]

Smells a bit like corporate virtue signaling to me but I guess everyone feels like they have to play that game these days.

 

Is there really even an issue with homophobia or racism or sexism anymore? Not talking about the odd distasteful comment or attention seeking trolls on twitter but actual widespread targeted abuse? Seems like there aren’t many people who actually hold these kinds of views and the few that do are automatically marginalised by default. You’d never believe that though given the amount of noise the topic generates. I don’t know, maybe bigotry really is ‘rife’ as someone posted and it’s all just passing me by somehow.

Edited 1 September 2019 by BlueBrett

[HighPeakFox]

29 minutes ago, BlueBrett said:

Is there really even an issue with homophobia or racism or sexism anymore?

Yes.

[murphy]

On 10/07/2019 at 13:20, boots60 said:

I know I'm going to be criticised for this but....

 

WTF has a persons sexual persuasion got to do with LCFC or any other football club?

 

I believe that we are yet to see an openly gay footballer in England?

 

Statistically speaking, there must be gay players having to conceal their sexuality.  Football is traditionally steeped in machismo, tribalism  and hostility  I think this is just a step forward in trying to educate fans and to make an environment whereby a player doesn't feel the need to hide who they are.  

 

I look forward to the first openly gay player putting his head above the parapet.  It will take courage and I really hope and believe that the vast majority of fans will support him.

 

[shade]

19 minutes ago, murphy said:

 

I believe that we are yet to see an openly gay footballer in England?

 

Statistically speaking, there must be gay players having to conceal their sexuality.  Football is traditionally steeped in machismo, tribalism  and hostility  I think this is just a step forward in trying to educate fans and to make an environment whereby a player doesn't feel the need to hide who they are.  

 

I look forward to the first openly gay player putting his head above the parapet.  It will take courage and I really hope and believe that the vast majority of fans will support him.

 

genuine question, how would it work in changing rooms, is it any different to a woman being in the changing room with a load of naked men?

[Wymsey]

Considering racial abuse of players, particularly via social media, has sadly grown recently - this would be the wrong time for any gay footballer to reveal their sexuality, tbh.

 

Therefore, they would have extremely great courage to come out and reveal now..

 

I really applaud Tom Daley for his announcement of being personally gay online a few years ago, as was concerned that there would be trolls who would send him personal abuse about it - but that seems, fortunately, to be not the case at the time he revealed it and to this day.

Edited 1 September 2019 by Wymeswold fox

[Guest BlueBrett]

50 minutes ago, murphy said:

 

I believe that we are yet to see an openly gay footballer in England?

 

Statistically speaking, there must be gay players having to conceal their sexuality.  Football is traditionally steeped in machismo, tribalism  and hostility  I think this is just a step forward in trying to educate fans and to make an environment whereby a player doesn't feel the need to hide who they are.  

 

People say this all the time about it being statistically inevitable that there must be gay footballers but I think that’s just down to a poor understanding of statistics.  It assumes that gay men are as likely to pursue a football career as straight men and overlooks the fact that the entire population of professional footballers - maybe 2 or 3 thousand in our leagues is tiny compared to the overall population of the country, around 0.00005 percent in fact. Then when you consider only around 2 percent of adults identify as gay and probably 40 percent of these are women it just doesn’t make sense at all to assume that there must be a bunch of gay players out there who are just too afraid to come out because society is so bigoted. It’s far more likely, statistically speaking, that there just aren’t any - and that’s before you even introduce potentially more controversial and debatable factors like interests into the equation. 

I think it’s also misguided and overly pessimistic to suggest that even if there were some gay footballers they would be too petrified of a handful of Twitter trolls to come out. Why would they even care? That’s akin to believing they come on FT and cry when they read people slating them in the post match thread. Clearly ludicrous and also ignores the fact the mainstream media, not even just the sporting press but everyone, would be absolutely in love with them and they’d probably end up with more post retirement opportunities than Blair and Clinton combined. 

 

I feel like much of this is obvious and it’s almost like some people want things to be worse than they are so it’s easier for them to feel somehow superior

 

 

[murphy]

45 minutes ago, shade said:

genuine question, how would it work in changing rooms, is it any different to a woman being in the changing room with a load of naked men?

 

I really don't know.  I can't imagine segregation, but thankfully that is a question for someone else to answer when that bridge is crossed.

 

42 minutes ago, Wymeswold fox said:

Considering racial abuse of players, particularly via social media, has sadly grown recently - this would be the wrong time for any gay footballer to reveal their sexuality, tbh.

 

Therefore, they would have extremely great courage to come out and reveal now..

 

I really applaud Tom Daley for his announcement of being personally gay online a few years ago, as was concerned that there would be trolls who would send him personal abuse about it - but that seems, fortunately, to be not the case at the time he revealed it and to this day.

 

You make a good point.  Sadly social media brings out the worst in many.

 

I am optimistic that first openly gay footballer would also receive a huge amount of support.  

[HighPeakFox]

1 minute ago, BlueBrett said:

People say this all the time about it being statistically inevitable that there must be gay footballers but I think that’s just down to a poor understanding of statistics.  It assumes that gay men are as likely to pursue a football career as straight men and overlooks the fact that the entire population of professional footballers - maybe 2 or 3 thousand in our leagues is tiny compared to the overall population of the country, around 0.00005 percent in fact. Then when you consider only around 2 percent of adults identify as gay and probably 40 percent of these are women it just doesn’t make sense at all to assume that there must be a bunch of gay players out there who are just too afraid to come out because society is so bigoted. It’s far more likely, statistically speaking, that there just aren’t any - and that’s before you even introduce potentially more controversial and debatable factors like interests into the equation. 

I think it’s also misguided and overly pessimistic to suggest that even if there were some gay footballers they would be too petrified of a handful of Twitter trolls to come out. Why would they even care? That’s akin to believing they come on FT and cry when they read people slating them in the post match thread. Clearly ludicrous and also ignores the fact the mainstream media, not even just the sporting press but everyone, would be absolutely in love with them and they’d probably end up with more post retirement opportunities than Blair and Clinton combined. 

 

I feel like much of this is obvious and it’s almost like some people want things to be worse than they are so it’s easier for them to feel somehow superior

 

 

I do get the distinct feeling that you got your statistics from the big phoney baloney book of numbers.

[Guest BlueBrett]

3 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

I do get the distinct feeling that you got your statistics from the big phoney baloney book of numbers.

Nah I just googled it and the first thing that came up was a 2019 report by the office of national statistics 

[Footballwipe]

Oh my there are some threatened men in this thread. Can't deduce if their thinking is backwards or if their sexuality is so repressed this kind of thing makes them wrestle with their emotions.

 

It'd be amusing if it wasn't so depressing. Imagine if your dad was some of these posters and you had to come out to him. Terrifying prospect.

[HighPeakFox]

2 minutes ago, BlueBrett said:

Nah I just googled it and the first thing that came up was a 2019 report by the office of national statistics 

Ok, that's interesting. Which stat did you google?

 

On your other points, I'd love to think that, in an ideal world, that what you said was the case, but sadly, we live in dangerous, nasty times. I can accept all your points (even if I disagree with them ) apart from your last line about people wanting to feel superior, which is nonsense, frankly.

[murphy]

1 minute ago, BlueBrett said:

People say this all the time about it being statistically inevitable that there must be gay footballers but I think that’s just down to a poor understanding of statistics.  It assumes that gay men are as likely to pursue a football career as straight men and overlooks the fact that the entire population of professional footballers - maybe 2 or 3 thousand in our leagues is tiny compared to the overall population of the country, around 0.00005 percent in fact. Then when you consider only around 2 percent of adults identify as gay and probably 40 percent of these are women it just doesn’t make sense at all to assume that there must be a bunch of gay players out there who are just too afraid to come out because society is so bigoted. It’s far more likely, statistically speaking, that there just aren’t any - and that’s before you even introduce potentially more controversial and debatable factors like interests into the equation. 

I think it’s also misguided and overly pessimistic to suggest that even if there were some gay footballers they would be too petrified of a handful of Twitter trolls to come out. Why would they even care? That’s akin to believing they come on FT and cry when they read people slating them in the post match thread. Clearly ludicrous and also ignores the fact the mainstream media, not even just the sporting press but everyone, would be absolutely in love with them and they’d probably end up with more post retirement opportunities than Blair and Clinton combined. 

 

I feel like much of this is obvious and it’s almost like some people want things to be worse than they are so it’s easier for them to feel somehow superior

 

 

 

Whilst I agree that there is probably a greater number of gay people in the arts for instance than there would be in football, I do believe that it is statistically inevitable.

 

We have seen Justin Fashanu as one example, but he did not come out during his playing career.  We have also seen Gareth Thomas in rugby union who would be the antithesis of the stereotype put forward.  Gay people come in all shapes and sizes and I daresay many play football.  In fact Thomas was very conflicted by his sexuality and suicidal at times.  I don't think 'a few twitter trolls' is really going to be the problem.  I would rethink that comment if I were you.  I would have thought that sportsmen, particularly in team sports, have to live and breathe their way of life, the fear of rejection from their team mates and becoming isloated and turned upon by supporters and the general public is a very daunting prospect.

[Guest BlueBrett]

1 minute ago, HighPeakFox said:

Ok, that's interesting. Which stat did you google?

 

On your other points, I'd love to think that, in an ideal world, that what you said was the case, but sadly, we live in dangerous, nasty times. I can accept all your points (even if I disagree with them ) apart from your last line about people wanting to feel superior, which is nonsense, frankly.

The percentage of people who identify as gay. I just did quick maths on the footballers percentage so it’s definitely not  totally accurate but I used my top end estimate of 3k pros and the oft quoted approximation of 60million people to get the number. Point is it’s a tiny proportion however you look at it.

Maybe it’s ungenerous for me to assume that’s the reason. I guess the media’s propensity for over reporting negative ‘news’ also plays a large part

[Hammo]

If a Premier League footballer came out as gay, then I have absolutely no doubt that in this day and age he would be glorified and lionised beyond belief by the media (whereas most reasonable people - and that means the vast majority of football fans - wouldn't be the slightest bit bothered).

 

But why the hell should he 'come out' if he doesn't want to? Sexual preference is such a personal and private aspect of human nature that it should be kept as such. I am sure pressure groups like Stonewall have their uses for some, but it is not unreasonable to accuse them and their ilk of self-promoting bullying tactics that potentially create more problems than they are attempting to resolve.

[majaco]

1 hour ago, shade said:

genuine question, how would it work in changing rooms, is it any different to a woman being in the changing room with a load of naked men?

People choose whether to show interest in others.  If a straight man had to change with women (some could be straight, some gay, some old, some young  some light, some heavy), he would probably decide that the socially responsible thing to do would be not to visually check out his changing companions.  

 

A footballer would probably be in a changing room because of playing football.  He would be unlikely to be focused on  asserting his sexuality.

 

I have coached a women's team where the rainbow was represented.  There were no examples of sexual impropriety in the dressing room.

[murphy]

18 minutes ago, Hammo said:

If a Premier League footballer came out as gay, then I have absolutely no doubt that in this day and age he would be glorified and lionised beyond belief by the media (whereas most reasonable people - and that means the vast majority of football fans - wouldn't be the slightest bit bothered).

 

But why the hell should he 'come out' if he doesn't want to? Sexual preference is such a personal and private aspect of human nature that it should be kept as such. I am sure pressure groups like Stonewall have their uses for some, but it is not unreasonable to accuse them and their ilk of self-promoting bullying tactics that potentially create more problems than they are attempting to resolve.

 

I think that the question here is why wouldn't he come out?  I don't mean that there has to be fanfare and confetti but why not just be open?  Why conceal who you are unless there is a stigma and a fear of a reaction?  

[ozleicester]

1 hour ago, shade said:

genuine question, how would it work in changing rooms, is it any different to a woman being in the changing room with a load of naked men?

there are already gay footballers in the change rooms. They just dont feel safe enough to tell others at the moment.

 

[Foxxed]

40 minutes ago, Hammo said:

If a Premier League footballer came out as gay, then I have absolutely no doubt that in this day and age he would be glorified and lionised beyond belief by the media (whereas most reasonable people - and that means the vast majority of football fans - wouldn't be the slightest bit bothered).

 

But why the hell should he 'come out' if he doesn't want to? Sexual preference is such a personal and private aspect of human nature that it should be kept as such. I am sure pressure groups like Stonewall have their uses for some, but it is not unreasonable to accuse them and their ilk of self-promoting bullying tactics that potentially create more problems than they are attempting to resolve.

Coming out doesn't equal self-promotion. It's being open with your friends and colleagues about a fundamental aspect of your humanity - the search for romantic intimacy. It's about simply saying you have a date and not hiding the sexuality of the other person.

 

If I had to hide every aspect of my life that dealt with my heterosexuality, for fear of verbal abuse from the stands and online abuse on social media and not to mention the rise in hate crime in this country, I would find it suffocating.

[Hammo]

1 hour ago, murphy said:

 

I think that the question here is why wouldn't he come out?  I don't mean that there has to be fanfare and confetti but why not just be open?  Why conceal who you are unless there is a stigma and a fear of a reaction?  

Privacy and confidentiality exist for a reason. For example, some people prefer not to have it widely known - even to their nearest and dearest - that they have a serious illness, whereas there are others who want to write a book about it. It's down to the personal choice of the individual.

 

What bothers me is this over-the-top obsession of media-encouraged pressure groups to ignore personal choice in their self-righteous, pseudo-virtuous crusades for change.

 

if someone wants to keep their sexuality, health, salary, even football club allegiance private, then they should be allowed to without feeling harassed or bullied into an against-their-will confession.