Extinction Rebellion

[st albans fox]

7 minutes ago, Benguin said:

The money has never been there. The money found for COVID-19 didn’t exist, There wasn’t a magical savings account the government forgot about, it has been literally created and will have to be paid back in the coming years. 

Precisely 

[Kopfkino]

seems some privileged folk have got bored again and decided to make other people's lives more difficult 

[Sampson]

On 29/08/2020 at 10:22, ozleicester said:

Money is an illusion, its value is imaginary.

I will be voting for governments that are planning to act on climate change.

Nope.

 

Money's value is not imaginary. Just because it's man made does not make it's value imaginary - plenty of man made things have incredible amounts of value - from human rights, to the integrity of the Scientific method, to medicines, to man made agricultural techniques. A universal, generic form of exchange has incredible amounts utility value to both the individual and the state and always will do. Even stable, universally demanded assets like gold have nowhere near the utility value of money.

 

For the individual because Pound Sterling is the only thing you can pay your taxes in - you can't pay them in labour or in stamps or in chickens. 

 

And governments make you pay your taxes in money so they can create a stable reputation and create demand for their currency which allows them to facilitate trade on a global level (also creation of demand for their currency is why government's don't just print this money and always have a counter-asset of debt or government bonds against it). And a universal form of exchange is needed on a global level else how do you exchange goods and service throughout the world as a means of exchange whereas generic assets like stamps or chickens may not be of use from one year to the next on international stage. So a universal means of exchange has incredible amounts of utility value at an international and individual level and always will have.

 

If anything we've found money has way more utility value since the end of the gold standard, seeing as currency has become a lot more stable on the back of its reputation than it does propped up against a universal asset like gold - look at how the Swiss Franc and Swiss economy have been so lucrative with zero natural assets, a small area with no much growing there, a neutral power with little say in geo-politics and no climate benefits - yet it's a country with one of the greenest energy forms and best quality of lives by the UN index based pretty much solely on an economy based on reputation and the reputation of the stability of its currency.

[Leicester_Loyal]

Blocking ambulances routes while on their way to save lives? They are an absolute disgrace. **** them.

[ozleicester]

7 hours ago, Sampson said:

Nope.

 

Money's value is not imaginary. Just because it's man made does not make it's value imaginary - plenty of man made things have incredible amounts of value - from human rights, to the integrity of the Scientific method, to medicines, to man made agricultural techniques. A universal, generic form of exchange has incredible amounts utility value to both the individual and the state and always will do. Even stable, universally demanded assets like gold have nowhere near the utility value of money.

 

For the individual because Pound Sterling is the only thing you can pay your taxes in - you can't pay them in labour or in stamps or in chickens. 

 

And governments make you pay your taxes in money so they can create a stable reputation and create demand for their currency which allows them to facilitate trade on a global level (also creation of demand for their currency is why government's don't just print this money and always have a counter-asset of debt or government bonds against it). And a universal form of exchange is needed on a global level else how do you exchange goods and service throughout the world as a means of exchange whereas generic assets like stamps or chickens may not be of use from one year to the next on international stage. So a universal means of exchange has incredible amounts of utility value at an international and individual level and always will have.

 

If anything we've found money has way more utility value since the end of the gold standard, seeing as currency has become a lot more stable on the back of its reputation than it does propped up against a universal asset like gold - look at how the Swiss Franc and Swiss economy have been so lucrative with zero natural assets, a small area with no much growing there, a neutral power with little say in geo-politics and no climate benefits - yet it's a country with one of the greenest energy forms and best quality of lives by the UN index based pretty much solely on an economy based on reputation and the reputation of the stability of its currency.

All of this is true to some extent...but only as long as people believe the story.

 

Ask the people of Venuzuela where the value of their currency is one 29000th  oops, that shouldve read 1/290,000th of what it was 2 years ago. (lets not bother arguing that the USA have caused that), the fact remains the money there is an illusion. the same applies to Zimbabwe, Liberia, Sudan..even Russia is struggling this year.

The fact remains that we make up the value.... the government in the UK have literally printed 100s of billions and thrown it into the economy, via the rich and corporate corrupt.

20 years ago, when people said.. "just print more" the response was.. you cant do that.... until banks and the rich decided THEY were the ones that needed "welfare".

 

The allegory of the cave has worked for many years in regard to money, but facts are... the value of money is perception only.

 

Edited 4 September 2020 by ozleicester

[Sampson]

9 hours ago, ozleicester said:

All of this is true to some extent...but only as long as people believe the story.

 

Ask the people of Venuzuela where the value of their currency is one 29000th  oops, that shouldve read 1/290,000th of what it was 2 years ago. (lets not bother arguing that the USA have caused that), the fact remains the money there is an illusion. the same applies to Zimbabwe, Liberia, Sudan..even Russia is struggling this year.

The fact remains that we make up the value.... the government in the UK have literally printed 100s of billions and thrown it into the economy, via the rich and corporate corrupt.

20 years ago, when people said.. "just print more" the response was.. you cant do that.... until banks and the rich decided THEY were the ones that needed "welfare".

 

The allegory of the cave has worked for many years in regard to money, but facts are... the value of money is perception only.

 

The value of money is not perception - it's what other nations are willing to trade it for, which you can trade for other resources, goods and services you cannot manufacture or supply in your country That's both inherent tangible value and utility value. It's what you can trade resources from other countries which you cannot produce in your own country.

 

 

The currency of Venezuela still has value, even if it's valued differently to what it was 10 years ago - people still use it to buy food and drink and pay their taxes in. Given the food, petrol (in a nation full of oil no less, and you certainly can't blame that and their shortage from being unable to distribute their own natural resources on other countries) and other resource there because of the instability around the nation's currency now surely that shows quite starkly the value of money?

 

Zimbabwe has changed their currency to the US dollar because they wanted a more stable and secure value to trade in internationally to rebuild their country's economy and to try and recover from mass shortages of resources.

 

I'm not sure how currencies going down in value leading to resource shortages and economic hardships point to the value of money being imaginary? Surely it is a stark example of the opposite and what an impact the inherent value of a means of exchange can have on a society?

Edited 4 September 2020 by Sampson

[Parafox]

15 hours ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Blocking ambulances routes while on their way to save lives? They are an absolute disgrace. **** them.

Had a driver in front of us once, deliberately swerving and slowing down to stop us getting past. It's since become an offence in traffic law as long as you can provide proof, such as dashcam footage but weirdly, ambulances aren't equipped with dashcams, only security and reversing cameras.

[Leicester_Loyal]

52 minutes ago, Parafox said:

Had a driver in front of us once, deliberately swerving and slowing down to stop us getting past. It's since become an offence in traffic law as long as you can provide proof, such as dashcam footage but weirdly, ambulances aren't equipped with dashcams, only security and reversing cameras.

People are mental aren't they, what would make you do something like that? Weirdos!

[Leicester_Loyal]

https://news.sky.com/story/extinction-rebellion-blockade-newspaper-printing-works-in-england-and-scotland-12064057

 

Do these idiots not realise this shit turns people against them?

[yorkie1999]

8 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

https://news.sky.com/story/extinction-rebellion-blockade-newspaper-printing-works-in-england-and-scotland-12064057

 

Do these idiots not realise this shit turns people against them?

There's no such thing as bad publicity, for every person that turns against them, there will be a person who sympathises with them. There's an obvious reason to blockade the sun print presses in Knowsley

Edited 5 September 2020 by yorkie1999

[Leicester_Loyal]

1 minute ago, yorkie1999 said:

There's no such thing as bad publicity, for every person that turns against them, there will be a person who sympathises with them.

The average man or woman isn't going to see it like that, only my opinion. They'll see a group halting ambulances on their way to save lives, disrupting trains which stops them earning money to feed their family and now a group trying to halt the spread of news that they don't agree with. If they want to be taken serious, they need to stop doing shit like this, but thankfully it's a small minority and the huge majority of people who want to tackle climate change don't agree with what they're doing.

[foxile5]

23 hours ago, Parafox said:

Had a driver in front of us once, deliberately swerving and slowing down to stop us getting past. It's since become an offence in traffic law as long as you can provide proof, such as dashcam footage but weirdly, ambulances aren't equipped with dashcams, only security and reversing cameras.

Think i remember this - a young lady driver wasn't it? 

[Tuna]

[leicsmac]

It's ridiculous.

 

The concerns are absolutely valid - the data is totally clear on that - but in a democracy you need a plurality of people to instigate action based upon it. So yes, the delivery of the message matters and ER are not getting it right there - at all.

[yorkie1999]

7 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

The average man or woman isn't going to see it like that, only my opinion. They'll see a group halting ambulances on their way to save lives, disrupting trains which stops them earning money to feed their family and now a group trying to halt the spread of news that they don't agree with. If they want to be taken serious, they need to stop doing shit like this, but thankfully it's a small minority and the huge majority of people who want to tackle climate change don't agree with what they're doing.

You're right, the average person won't see it like that , but also i don't think the average person is that bothered about climate change, in this country anyway, probably because we don't see hard evidence of it happening. We all know the climate is changing and the ice caps are receding etc, but to the average Brit, what in this country has actually changed over the last 50 years. It's still cold and wet in the winter and it's still the same in the summer months now as it was when i was a kid, apart from 1976. The recent floods we had this year are no different to floods we had 100-200 years ago. . What i'm saying is for every person they piss off, they'll be a person sympathising with them.

[Kopfkino]

45 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

https://news.sky.com/story/extinction-rebellion-blockade-newspaper-printing-works-in-england-and-scotland-12064057

 

Do these idiots not realise this shit turns people against them?

 

I worry that they'll realise I read The Times on my phone and come round to glue it to their arse cheek

[peach0000]

I'm just glad that the issue is finally being talked about regularly. If it's taken a load of people blocking roads or newspapers then good luck to them. The cause is far more important than the consequences of their actions. 

[Parafox]

58 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

Think i remember this - a young lady driver wasn't it? 

There has been a female prosecuted for deliberately impeding an emergency vehicle but the incident I experienced was before it became a traffic offence and in our case it was a male chav in a Vauxhall Astra

[leicsmac]

56 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

You're right, the average person won't see it like that , but also i don't think the average person is that bothered about climate change, in this country anyway, probably because we don't see hard evidence of it happening. We all know the climate is changing and the ice caps are receding etc, but to the average Brit, what in this country has actually changed over the last 50 years. It's still cold and wet in the winter and it's still the same in the summer months now as it was when i was a kid, apart from 1976. The recent floods we had this year are no different to floods we had 100-200 years ago. . What i'm saying is for every person they piss off, they'll be a person sympathising with them.

It's a bit frustrating really. The problem is abstract for so many people because it's not hitting them directly, but it's a problem of such magnitude that by the time it does affect people in the UK enough for them to really direct policy on it in the way needed we're going to be looking at inevitable changes that result in a massive amount of bodies on the floor and mass migration - too late, in other words.

 

Ditto for a lot of other developed nations, too.

[Kopfkino]

Why don't these people find something to actually find something to campaign for and encourage people to coalesce around something rather than being weirdos doing things that are completely irrelevant much to the bafflement of the majority of the rest of us. Most of us agree that climate change is bad and a present threat but are waiting for a serious, co-ordinated, direction towards realistic solutions. Plenty of people are begging to be dragged along on this journey, particularly at the moment, and if you were really arsed about the matter you'd work out how to do that, not stand in the street dancing to stayin' alive. As someone that's part of a group that's trying to encourage and support a few local farmers to become more sustainable and consider biodiversity, we don't stand in their fields dancing to the Wurzels, we show them what they can do and how it might benefit a variety of stakeholders including them. Different of course, but ER feels like the perfect example of how to squander a potential platform. 

 

 

[twoleftfeet]

Whilst being a slight climate change denier it terms that current green alternatives need massive carbon inputs and the longevity of solar panels wind turbines and electric car batteries are unproven as of yet. I believe that the campaign is important but the interuption on everyone elses life is doing the cause harm. Had solar panels for 4 years hopefully they have a long life span as the figures financially dont add up otherwise and the carbon reduction may only be moved for the piont of use to the point of manufacture.

[Dr The Singh]

2 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

Why don't these people find something to actually find something to campaign for and encourage people to coalesce around something rather than being weirdos doing things that are completely irrelevant much to the bafflement of the majority of the rest of us. Most of us agree that climate change is bad and a present threat but are waiting for a serious, co-ordinated, direction towards realistic solutions. Plenty of people are begging to be dragged along on this journey, particularly at the moment, and if you were really arsed about the matter you'd work out how to do that, not stand in the street dancing to stayin' alive. As someone that's part of a group that's trying to encourage and support a few local farmers to become more sustainable and consider biodiversity, we don't stand in their fields dancing to the Wurzels, we show them what they can do and how it might benefit a variety of stakeholders including them. Different of course, but ER feels like the perfect example of how to squander a potential platform. 

 

 

If they Bhangra danced, I might consider them.more serious.

[leicsmac]

5 hours ago, twoleftfeet said:

Whilst being a slight climate change denier it terms that current green alternatives need massive carbon inputs and the longevity of solar panels wind turbines and electric car batteries are unproven as of yet. I believe that the campaign is important but the interuption on everyone elses life is doing the cause harm. Had solar panels for 4 years hopefully they have a long life span as the figures financially dont add up otherwise and the carbon reduction may only be moved for the piont of use to the point of manufacture.

You'll be glad to know that this was quite true as of about 10 years ago, but there have been pretty big improvements in this particular field of tech in the meantime and and now solar panels, in particular, easily outperform the carbon budget that it takes to make them in the first place over their lifetime. So I reckon your solar panels will pay for themselves - easily - over their lifetime.

 

Electric cars requiring lithium, however, is something that still needs to be looked at.

 

They're still not reliable enough to power large-scale grids...but then that's where Gen III/IV fission and molten salt reactors come in. Yes, it's an investment, but even with the tech humanity has now there is no need for many nations to use coal and oil for the purposes of energy generation.

[Wymsey]

They've made themselves known in Leicester/Leicestershire..

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/ghostly-white-prams-appeared-leicestershire-5245776

[Wymsey]

Seem to have caused more havoc again..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58324146

 

They seem like self-entitled, "look at me" individuals rather than promoting what they're apparently standing for well.