Extinction Rebellion

[Carl the Llama]

1 hour ago, Benguin said:

What do you mean by "on humanities watch?"

 

Are you saying there is some transcendent reason that elevates us above the rest of the animal kingdom? 

We have greater cognitive capacity and technological know how than any species that ever existed on this planet.  We are capable of awareness of the global destruction we wreack and also of reversing it to some degree with enough cooperation.  Animals are not causing mass pollution or extinction events so have no need to self reflect on their impact as a species.

 

Alternatively if you believe in an omniscient creator then you have to behave as the global protectors the bible says we are.

 

Science and religion agree on this point albeit for different reasons.

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot said:

Yeah and I do do those small things, just don't think it does anything worth while in the grand scheme of things, makes it all a bit depressing. 

As Raj says above, don't think of it like that.

'

8 minutes ago, The People's Hero said:

I'd actually say they are very relevant since if you want people to change and society to change and people to get behind your movement/crusade, then you have to be squeaky clean and live the change you want in others.

 

But there again maybe its a bit like the religious and the more you speak about (a) god, the less you have to act as they'd like; or put another way, the more Christian you are, the less christian you have to be. Hold people to standard you refuse yourself to meet.

 

You may not see hypocrisy as part of the issue; but I think its a huge part in terms of how much support ER will ever get from the normal people whom they point the finger at.

 

 

 

I think that considering the lack of action taken despite being communicated in a clear and calm manner by trustworthy parties in the past, hypocrisy is very little part of how we respond to the problem and nothing whatsoever to do with the problem itself and what it will do.

 

I also think, again, that if folks are willing to dismiss XR on that account while offering no viable alternative then they don't care all that much about the problem in the first place.

[Kopfkino]

16 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Small gestures, mon ami.

 

Change has to come at the governmental level, but then that's what the ballot box is for.

 

NB. Manned spaceflight contributes very, very little to carbon footprints.

 

It would be, wouldn't it?

 

Or people could perhaps see the science rather than XR and look to lobby their governments more for the changes needed. Meeting halfway.

 

Edit: I honestly can't get my head round the idea of someone who wouldn't want to avert environmental disaster, though.

Given it’s almost entirely a collective action problem, you need a lead and a group that can align and drive it through. Not groups with very particular and narrow framing of the matter that fractures any hope of that. Even bees need a Queen to release particular pheromones for worker bees to work for the good of the nest, ER’s pheromones aren’t particularly for most people.

 

Theyve dropped off in the polls of late cos of the leader but the German Greens are always a good example of how being moderate and normal can get you somewhere

[oakman]

39 minutes ago, Raj said:

FFS, what do you want  them to do..lol...be miserable and slap each other for the damage they are doing to the planet...come on...

I'd have them treat a serious issue seriously. Weirdly, I have far more respect for the people who are gluing themselves to vans and chaining themselves together than I do for the group of people I saw on Tuesday who's 'protest' was dancing to the Ragga Twins in the middle of the road.

[Raj]

5 minutes ago, oakman said:

I'd have them treat a serious issue seriously. Weirdly, I have far more respect for the people who are gluing themselves to vans and chaining themselves together than I do for the group of people I saw on Tuesday who's 'protest' was dancing to the Ragga Twins in the middle of the road.

When we went I saw about 10-20 "ravers" out of hundreds who were not acting around and were probably drugged!!

 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Given it’s almost entirely a collective action problem, you need a lead and a group that can align and drive it through. Not groups with very particular and narrow framing of the matter that fractures any hope of that. Even bees need a Queen to release particular pheromones for worker bees to work for the good of the nest, ER’s pheromones aren’t particularly for most people.

 

Theyve dropped off in the polls of late cos of the leader but the German Greens are always a good example of how being moderate and normal can get you somewhere

Agreed on the ideas here.

 

However, as I've said before, I simply don't understand why people who are well aware of the particulars of the problem aren't on board with it and pushing for change themselves anyway. I mean, we are talking about a problem that will make every single other problem than global nuclear war seem very small in terms of death and disruption.

[leicsmac]

https://phys.org/news/2021-08-attribution-science-climate-blame-extreme.html

 

For more information.

[HighPeakFox]

Amazing how 'middle-class' is a term of abuse now. I do apologise for something I have no control over.

[yorkie1999]

1 hour ago, Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot said:

I do sometimes wonder how much difference I'm making seperating my plastic in to different bins while billionaires blast themselves in to space in rockets and countries like China exist. Still, I'll make sure to wash out my tin of mushy peas before I put it in the correct bin because not all heroes wear capes. 

None. Was at a camp site in France a few years back where there was a strict recycling policy, everything had to go in its correct bin. Couldn’t believe it when one day a dustbin lorry rocked up and the guys emptied every bin into it.

[Phil Bowman]

3 hours ago, JonnyBoy said:

i am very much FOR saving the planet, I drive a plug in hybrid and did Veganuary. Extinction Rebellion are sending out the WRONG message 

No, they’re not. And if you’re really very much for saving the planet, you can’t think they are either. You just disagree with the way they’re sending it.

[SpacedX]

2 hours ago, HighPeakFox said:

Amazing how 'middle-class' is a term of abuse now. I do apologise for something I have no control over.

This happened recently on here concerning the prohibitive rights to the game of football which is supposedly exclusively the preserve of the working class. Even more amusing then that the modern game was originally codified on the playing fields of Eton. 

[indierich06]

XR alienate a lot of ordinary folk with their approach, and - let's be honest - that suits the powers that be just fine. Much easier to swerve making meaningful change when the people espousing it are seen as a bunch of nuisance crackpots by and large. The press are useful idiots too, with all reporting focusing on the mess they're making and the disruption they're causing to working people just trying to go about their day. I walked through Trafalgar Square every day when they occupied it a couple of years back - it started out as a bunch of well meaning people who were happy to stop and have a chat, then after a few days more and more people turned up and it just became a free for all, people pissed out of their heads, openly taking drugs, loud music blaring all day, rubbish everywhere. And what is all this disruption supposed to actually achieve? As I said, if the govt believes the people in general disapprove of what XR are doing, it makes change less likely if anything. Is interrupting the lives of the general public supposed to bring them on board? Are they supposed to think 'well, better not vote Tory again, or there'll be more of this'? And sweep the Greens into power? Because I can't see that happening either. I genuinely don't understand how they think their antics will affect meaningful change. This government isn't even held to account for the illegal shit they get up to, why would they give a **** about doing what's morally right?

 

Meanwhile, the average person on the street has it drilled (no pun intended) into them that their 'carbon footprint' is the reason we're in the state we are. When in reality, it's a PR scam cooked up by BP to pass the buck onto the individual when it comes to tackling climate change - the fact of the matter is, there's about 100 oil companies drilling the **** out of our planet, who have accounted for nearly 75% of all carbon emissions since the 70s. If they stopped doing it, we'd (eventually) be fine. But they won't, so things won't change. It doesn't matter if you travel by plane, it doesn't matter if you recycle, it doesn't matter if you drive a hybrid - you, personally, can do absolutely nothing to halt the irreversible damage being done to this planet by the vested interests of just a few companies. So why do XR think that the general public are the right target for their antics?

[Kopfkino]

3 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Agreed on the ideas here.

 

However, as I've said before, I simply don't understand why people who are well aware of the particulars of the problem aren't on board with it and pushing for change themselves anyway. I mean, we are talking about a problem that will make every single other problem than global nuclear war seem very small in terms of death and disruption.

What can people well aware do to push for change?

[Vlad the Fox]

People don’t like being told what to do. People don’t like the disruption caused to them by people on a mission that they largely agree with. Education is the only way that we’ll effect climate change. It might not be quick enough for some but it’s the only approach that works.
 

Years ago I remember when no one was going to wear a seatbelt when it became law, but there were add campaigns educating people as to why it was important to wear one (it will save your lives, it will save your kids lives). People realised it made sense to wear one and did so. 
 

Similar thing to kids wearing helmets on their bikes. When I was a kid if you went out with a cycle helmet on you’d be chased and ridiculed at best, beat up at worst. Now it’s not given a second thought after people where educated into the dangers of having an accident without one, it made sense to wear one.

 

This has been going on for a number of years now regarding climate change, recycling and changing the way we produce and waste. This message has been spread, educated and informed for years, it’s everywhere, the news, magazines, newspapers, radio the internet. We’re bombarded with the message and now more than ever people are recycling and making green choices, it’s in everyone’s conscious thinking and is a natural thought process for most people after years of this message getting across. Companies are now pledging to go carbon neutral, the climate is at the forefront of business decisions for many because they care, it projects a good image and makes them money. 

It’s this slow process that will effect change, the education, making it the norm to take your own refill cup into costa, to take your own bags to the supermarket, to chose which companies you shop with or not. Not some **** stood on top of a train when all I want to do is get home have my tea, walk the dog or take my kids football. 
 

 

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

We are all God's creatures, of which mankind is the most destructive. If I had the choice of saving the life of a human baby, or a tiger cub, I would probably pick the latte.r

[Buce]

36 minutes ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said:

The bitch should be hanged. 

 

6 minutes ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said:

We are all God's creatures, of which mankind is the most destructive. If I had the choice of saving the life of a human baby, or a tiger cub, I would probably pick the latte.r

 

What a nice man you are.

[leicsmac]

7 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

What can people well aware do to push for change?

As per before, lobby their governments to change and to pressure other governments to change too.

 

TBH that's about as much as the average person in terms of power can do, other than the standard recycling.

 

7 hours ago, indierich06 said:

XR alienate a lot of ordinary folk with their approach, and - let's be honest - that suits the powers that be just fine. Much easier to swerve making meaningful change when the people espousing it are seen as a bunch of nuisance crackpots by and large. The press are useful idiots too, with all reporting focusing on the mess they're making and the disruption they're causing to working people just trying to go about their day. I walked through Trafalgar Square every day when they occupied it a couple of years back - it started out as a bunch of well meaning people who were happy to stop and have a chat, then after a few days more and more people turned up and it just became a free for all, people pissed out of their heads, openly taking drugs, loud music blaring all day, rubbish everywhere. And what is all this disruption supposed to actually achieve? As I said, if the govt believes the people in general disapprove of what XR are doing, it makes change less likely if anything. Is interrupting the lives of the general public supposed to bring them on board? Are they supposed to think 'well, better not vote Tory again, or there'll be more of this'? And sweep the Greens into power? Because I can't see that happening either. I genuinely don't understand how they think their antics will affect meaningful change. This government isn't even held to account for the illegal shit they get up to, why would they give a **** about doing what's morally right?

 

Meanwhile, the average person on the street has it drilled (no pun intended) into them that their 'carbon footprint' is the reason we're in the state we are. When in reality, it's a PR scam cooked up by BP to pass the buck onto the individual when it comes to tackling climate change - the fact of the matter is, there's about 100 oil companies drilling the **** out of our planet, who have accounted for nearly 75% of all carbon emissions since the 70s. If they stopped doing it, we'd (eventually) be fine. But they won't, so things won't change. It doesn't matter if you travel by plane, it doesn't matter if you recycle, it doesn't matter if you drive a hybrid - you, personally, can do absolutely nothing to halt the irreversible damage being done to this planet by the vested interests of just a few companies. So why do XR think that the general public are the right target for their antics?

This is likely correct, but provided it is...what is the solution?

 

5 hours ago, Vlad the Fox said:

People don’t like being told what to do. People don’t like the disruption caused to them by people on a mission that they largely agree with. Education is the only way that we’ll effect climate change. It might not be quick enough for some but it’s the only approach that works.
 

Years ago I remember when no one was going to wear a seatbelt when it became law, but there were add campaigns educating people as to why it was important to wear one (it will save your lives, it will save your kids lives). People realised it made sense to wear one and did so. 
 

Similar thing to kids wearing helmets on their bikes. When I was a kid if you went out with a cycle helmet on you’d be chased and ridiculed at best, beat up at worst. Now it’s not given a second thought after people where educated into the dangers of having an accident without one, it made sense to wear one.

 

This has been going on for a number of years now regarding climate change, recycling and changing the way we produce and waste. This message has been spread, educated and informed for years, it’s everywhere, the news, magazines, newspapers, radio the internet. We’re bombarded with the message and now more than ever people are recycling and making green choices, it’s in everyone’s conscious thinking and is a natural thought process for most people after years of this message getting across. Companies are now pledging to go carbon neutral, the climate is at the forefront of business decisions for many because they care, it projects a good image and makes them money. 

It’s this slow process that will effect change, the education, making it the norm to take your own refill cup into costa, to take your own bags to the supermarket, to chose which companies you shop with or not. Not some **** stood on top of a train when all I want to do is get home have my tea, walk the dog or take my kids football. 
 

 

Again, this is correct but the bolded part is the most important part here.

 

The truth is that education is the better approach, but it simply isn't working well enough, fast enough. The scientific data we have proves this several times over.

 

Therefore, another solution must be found. It may well not be what XR are doing, but another solution is certainly necessary.

[yorkie1999]

56 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

As per before, lobby their governments to change and to pressure other governments to change too.

 

TBH that's about as much as the average person in terms of power can do, other than the standard recycling.

 

This is likely correct, but provided it is...what is the solution?

 

Again, this is correct but the bolded part is the most important part here.

 

The truth is that education is the better approach, but it simply isn't working well enough, fast enough. The scientific data we have proves this several times over.

 

Therefore, another solution must be found. It may well not be what XR are doing, but another solution is certainly necessary.

The solution is to stop burning fossil fuels, end of, but that’s not going to happen whilst we need electricity, drive our cars, produce steel and do everything else that requires energy. We’re all guilty because we all crave goods and a nice life, we all want to fly round the world and buy the latest tv’s, everything we do requires energy to do it, this is a football forum, we all want to watch our team play, how much electricity is used every time we go to the ground when the floodlights are on? a Fvckin lot is the answer, why don’t we go in the daylight and save that electricity? Cos we’re fvcking thick, that’s why.  We’re all kidding ourselves if we think recycling a few tin cans and drinking through paper straws is going to reverse global warming and we’re kidding ourselves if we think that paying 10p extra for a plastic bag at the super market or planting a tree every time we use a tank of petrol makes us carbon neutral. Even this XR lot contributed to global warming by travelling to London in their cars, busses and trains.

   It’s never going to change unless we all go back to living like Australian aborigines or something, is that going to happen? No chance.

Edited 27 August 2021 by yorkie1999

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

The solution is to stop burning fossil fuels, end of, but that’s not going to happen whilst we need electricity, drive our cars, produce steel and do everything else that requires energy. We’re all guilty because we all crave goods and a nice life, we all want to fly round the world and buy the latest tv’s, everything we do requires energy to do it .  We’re all kidding ourselves if we think recycling a few tin cans and drinking through paper straws is going to reverse global warming and we’re kidding ourselves if we think that paying 10p extra for a plastic bag at the super market or planting a tree every time we use a tank of petrol makes us carbon neutral. Even this XR lot contributed to global warming by travelling to London in their cars, busses and trains.

   It’s never going to change unless we all go back to living like Australian aborigines or something, is that going to happen? No chance.

Yeah, miss me with that fatalistic nihilism (as referenced in another thread). All that does is make sure that we're doomed.

 

We can stop burning fossil fuels and maintain the same energy output that we have today. There are ways to do this (Gen III/IV fission, and renewables), they just need to be implemented. The cost will be high, but not nearly so high as the one the Earth will demand if we don't. There's no need to technologically regress.

Edited 27 August 2021 by leicsmac

[yorkie1999]

16 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, miss me with that fatalistic nihilism (as referenced in another thread). All that does is make sure that we're doomed.

 

We can stop burning fossil fuels and maintain the same energy output that we have today. There are ways to do this (Gen III/IV fission, and renewables), they just need to be implemented. The cost will be high, but not nearly so high as the one the Earth will demand if we don't. There's no need to technologically regress.

And meanwhile, China have just built and commissioned 20 new coal fired powered stations with another 20 odd on the way, something I doubt they would be doing if there was any chance that building nuclear fission power stations was a reality.

 We stick up a wind farm, off Skegness, and the good news is that I’d will power up to 30000 homes or a small town! Whoopadido, how many small towns are there in the world? Millions of them. Is are enough actual space on the planet? 

Edited 27 August 2021 by yorkie1999

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

And meanwhile, China have just built and commissioned 20 new coal fired powered stations with another 20 odd on the way, something I doubt they would be doing if there was any chance that building nuclear fission power stations was a reality.

....and?

 

It's all going to go to hell in a handbasket because the Chinese aren't playing ball (right now and without a full understanding of what they're up to), so we can not bother either and just blame them?

 

With all due respect, that is incredibly defeatist and thinking like that when other pathways can be taken will be the main responsibility for the forthcoming consequences of climate change, not anything the Chinese do.

[ozleicester]

15 hours ago, David Guiza said:

Appreciate (or at least hope) that you're being somewhat tongue in cheek with this, but it's a genuine issue that numerous people have. Not so much the contemplation of suicide part, but whether or not to bring children into a dying and overpopulated world. 

 

My wife and I are fairly sure we want kids in the next 5 or so years, but if we do we're almost certain that we only want one and the climate crisis is very much part of the reason why. The issue however is that the families that couldn't give a toss will continue to pop children out and then often those children become a carbon copy of their parents, as many offspring are in all classes and backgrounds, and then there are less people to 'fight the good fight' and the issue just gets worse as a result. 

 

As to what others have said; I completely understand why many get fed up with the hypocrisy of jet setting celebrities spouting about the environment, or people who look like a 70s George Harrison after being lost in the woods for a few weeks, but that doesn't make their point any less valid. I'd also argue that dismissing a cause that you understand is a real and genuine threat because you don't like some people on that side is a pretty silly standpoint. I would have turned my back on Leicester City years ago if I was put off by the unwashed and annoying. 

 

[Benguin]

16 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

We have greater cognitive capacity and technological know how than any species that ever existed on this planet.  We are capable of awareness of the global destruction we wreack and also of reversing it to some degree with enough cooperation.  Animals are not causing mass pollution or extinction events so have no need to self reflect on their impact as a species.

 

Alternatively if you believe in an omniscient creator then you have to behave as the global protectors the bible says we are.

 

Science and religion agree on this point albeit for different reasons.

Oh yeah I definitely agree with all that... Why do we care though? If we are atoms randomly and chaotically bouncing around until the grave, what's in it for us to care? 

 

[Vlad the Fox]

6 hours ago, leicsmac said:

As per before, lobby their governments to change and to pressure other governments to change too.

 

TBH that's about as much as the average person in terms of power can do, other than the standard recycling.

 

This is likely correct, but provided it is...what is the solution?

 

Again, this is correct but the bolded part is the most important part here.

 

The truth is that education is the better approach, but it simply isn't working well enough, fast enough. The scientific data we have proves this several times over.

 

Therefore, another solution must be found. It may well not be what XR are doing, but another solution is certainly necessary.

I think it has been working well enough, everyone gets the message, almost everyone does their bit, those that point blank refuse you won’t sway anyway. I agree it probably could happen quicker, but over the years governments, businesses have been positioning themselves to become more and more green and I now feel that over the coming years we’ll see an acceleration, a snowballing, of this as more and more are able to do this as it becomes more affordable. Former petrol heads are now buying electric cars as e-cars performance starts to rival petrol and diesel. I never thought I’d see that. This has been done with government scientists and pressure from within parliament as well as more intelligent protest (Greta Thunberg) Not some dicks dancing to staying alive in front of Buckingham palace, a lot of this to me seems like green virtual signalling and achieves nothing more than piss off the already converted.

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Vlad the Fox said:

I think it has been working well enough, everyone gets the message, almost everyone does their bit, those that point blank refuse you won’t sway anyway. I agree it probably could happen quicker, but over the years governments, businesses have been positioning themselves to become more and more green and I now feel that over the coming years we’ll see an acceleration, a snowballing, of this as more and more are able to do this as it becomes more affordable. Former petrol heads are now buying electric cars as e-cars performance starts to rival petrol and diesel. I never thought I’d see that. This has been done with government scientists and pressure from within parliament as well as more intelligent protest (Greta Thunberg) Not some dicks dancing to staying alive in front of Buckingham palace, a lot of this to me seems like green virtual signalling and achieves nothing more than piss off the already converted.

I'd certainly agree that it is happening, but I'd state yet again that I look at the atmospheric carbon dioxide levels and global temperature statistics, and the events already happening due to it all and believe that it still is nowhere near fast enough.

 

I really, really hope that I'm wrong on that one and the acceleration that is spoken of here does arrive in time (I agree that it will happen and is happening) to stave off some of the truly dreadful possible consequences and that not too many lives and homes are lost as a result of short sighted self interest.