Extinction Rebellion

[Benji 681]

Public transport is much closer to the solution than the problem - this was an incredibly ill-thought-out protest.

[Guest MattP]

15 minutes ago, Benji said:

Public transport is much closer to the solution than the problem - this was an incredibly ill-thought-out protest.

Who would have though people who go jumping on top of the tube of the tube during rush hour aren't the best at thinking things through?

Where is @leicsmac as well? Wasn't him was it?

[theessexfox 1,705]

Not that I'm particularly sympathetic to the strategies or message of ER, but I read that they had an internal vote which went against action on the Underground, and that these people have gone ahead with it regardless. Any diverse group will tend to have some form of sub-group that uses bad tactics; it's a shame that the whole movement will be judged by this tactic (if indeed the group did vote against this action)

 

EDIT: The group seems to be publicly supporting the action so perhaps this sympathy is unwarranted

Edited 17 October 2019 by theessexfox

[ScouseFox 14,698]

"protest now you dickhead" was a highlight of my morning 

[leicsmac 4,247]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Who would have though people who go jumping on top of the tube of the tube during rush hour aren't the best at thinking things through?

Where is @leicsmac as well? Wasn't him was it?

With such comedic timing you should be on the stage, Matt - your manifold talents are clearly wasted here.

 

Still, I guess it gives at least some proof to my previous thoughts that some folks really can't or won't distinguish between XR activists like the one today and those with a fair bit more nuanced version of a solution to offer. Rather dispiriting, really - even if it is "just a joke".

Edited 17 October 2019 by leicsmac

[Jon the Hat 3,862]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

Who would have though people who go jumping on top of the tube of the tube during rush hour aren't the best at thinking things through?

Where is @leicsmac as well? Wasn't him was it?

You can’t expect good judgement from people who repeat bollocks about billions of people dying in the next few decades without questioning it.

[Jon the Hat 3,862]

I have to say the people who stood round the criminal protester protecting him from the rather angry mob were incredibly brave.  Bravo!

[Innovindil 2,634]

33 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

With such comedic timing you should be on the stage, Matt - your manifold talents are clearly wasted here.

 

Still, I guess it gives at least some proof to my previous thoughts that some folks really can't or won't distinguish between XR activists like the one today and those with a fair bit more nuanced version of a solution to offer. Rather dispiriting, really - even if it is "just a joke".

The trouble is that it gets hard to distinguish between XR activists like this and XR in general because the "co-founders" come out and defend the muppets doing stuff like this. 

 

It was a shite idea and they should be mocked for it imo. 

[leicsmac 4,247]

9 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

You can’t expect good judgement from people who repeat bollocks about billions of people dying in the next few decades without questioning it.

Judging (hah) by the second sentence apparently you can't expect good judgement from anyone on the matter regardless of background or action.

 

NB. The only scenario I personally can envision in which billions of people die in the next few decades because of this is a three-way escalation to nuclear exchange between China, India and Pakistan over potable water supplies if and when their own become difficult to source for all their respective populations considering they all use a lot of the same source. Most unlikely, but not exactly impossible.

 

2 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

The trouble is that it gets hard to distinguish between XR activists like this and XR in general because the "co-founders" come out and defend the muppets doing stuff like this. 

 

It was a shite idea and they should be mocked for it imo. 

I'm not referring to the difference between XR activists and XR in general, I'm referring - as Matt was, even in jest - to the difference between XR activist and a person who thinks they are being stupid, getting in the way, but still feels that world governments actually have to pull their fingers out faster and apply a scientific solution to the problem that humanity is facing.

[ozleicester 6,807]

You may well ask: "Why direct action? Why sit ins, marches and so forth? Isn't negotiation a better path?" You are quite right in calling for negotiation. Indeed, this is the very purpose of direct action. Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, so must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood. The purpose of our direct action program is to create a situation so crisis packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation. Too long has our beloved Southland been bogged down in a tragic effort to live in monologue rather than dialogue.

 

https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Still, I guess it gives at least some proof to my previous thoughts that some folks really can't or won't distinguish between XR activists like the one today and those with a fair bit more nuanced version of a solution to offer. Rather dispiriting, really - even if it is "just a joke".

Also gives more proof to my thoughts that if you support this action you'll end up destroying your own cause.

 

I'm actually helping you here long term.

[leicsmac 4,247]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Also gives more proof to my thoughts that if you support this action you'll end up destroying your own cause.

 

I'm actually helping you here long term.

I'm sorry Matt, but what exactly are you helping me with here by lumping me in with XR? Because even if it was a joke, that is what you did, despite my lengthy and varied commentary over the past few days in which I emphasised the differences?

 

I'm sorry if I appear a little ticked off but it has been my longest day of the week, I'm tired, and I thoroughly dislike assertions that someone with a nuanced version of the situation and how the world might respond to it can be associated with the people representing XR right now after everything that has been said on this thread.

Edited 17 October 2019 by leicsmac

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

I'm sorry Matt, but what exactly are you helping me with here by lumping me in with XR? Because even if it was a joke, that is what you did, despite my lengthy and varied commentary over the past few days in which I emphasised the differences?

 

I'm sorry if I appear a little ticked off but it has been my longest day of the week, I'm tired, and I thoroughly dislike assertions that someone with a nuanced version of the situation and how the world might respond to it can be associated with the people representing XR right now after everything that has been said on this thread.

You've consistently defended groups like XR as they are "getting people talking about it". That is a defence.

 

I'm sorry for making the joke about you being the hippy on the tube and I withdraw it. 

[Wrighty22 231]

10 minutes ago, MattP said:

You've consistently defended groups like XR as they are "getting people talking about it". That is a defence.

 

I'm sorry for making the joke about you being the hippy on the tube and I withdraw it. 

Stop upsetting people and get a job! 

[leicsmac 4,247]

23 minutes ago, MattP said:

You've consistently defended groups like XR as they are "getting people talking about it". That is a defence.

 

I'm sorry for making the joke about you being the hippy on the tube and I withdraw it. 

Fair enough and thank you - not often I take stuff on here personally but given all that's happened and my obvious dislike of ignorance when it comes to the various parts of the green movement I think it was a bit below the belt.

 

Allow me to clarify at this point that IMO groups like XR are only useful as far as they are raising positive public awareness of the problem. What's been happening over the last few days certainly isn't positive, so it ain't useful.

[Strokes 9,339]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Fair enough and thank you - not often I take stuff on here personally but given all that's happened and my obvious dislike of ignorance when it comes to the various parts of the green movement I think it was a bit below the belt.

 

Allow me to clarify at this point that IMO groups like XR are only useful as far as they are raising positive public awareness of the problem. What's been happening over the last few days certainly isn't positive, so it ain't useful.

I can’t believe we’ve been arguing for days and it turns out we completely agree with each other

 

[MC Prussian 7,503]

2 hours ago, ozleicester said:

You may well ask: "Why direct action? Why sit ins, marches and so forth? Isn't negotiation a better path?" You are quite right in calling for negotiation. Indeed, this is the very purpose of direct action. Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, so must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood. The purpose of our direct action program is to create a situation so crisis packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation. Too long has our beloved Southland been bogged down in a tragic effort to live in monologue rather than dialogue.

 

https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

Martin Luther King‘s struggle for the freedom of Black people in the US equals modern-day protesters?  Why conflate the two?

Let‘s assume we go down this route for argument‘s sake.

 

There is quite a bit of esoteric nonsense, part crude philosophical mishmash, a superficial pick&choose, where to start? Using quotes to suit oneself‘s own argument.

 

First of all, if we make the comparison, then it’s clear that the GW issue is being confronted and has been confronted for years, if not decades. If we want change, we also have to accept that people‘s behaviour doesn‘t change overnight and that technology doesn‘t come up with immediate solutions, it takes time from research to implementation.

 

Socrates also said that „he knows nothing and understands even less“. He also speaks of „an inwardness that begins with oneself“.

 

In the end, if we go down this route, all that remains here is another attempt at emotionalizing a debate, fearmongering, playing mind tricks, the primary use of the word „tension“ gives it away.

 

Tension isn‘t constructive, especially when it‘s being manufactured. It‘s a hindrance and has lots of potential for conflict.

Edited 17 October 2019 by MC Prussian

[Guest MattP]

The people comparing these twats to MLK or the Suffragettes should stop it.

 

Women and black people at those times didn't have the ballot box to change things, extinction rebellion do.

[Manini 2,862]

This whole debacle is like an episode of black mirror 

[Trav Le Bleu 8,037]

What a week.

 

Foreigners who do racist chants against our boys... scum!

 

People who kick the heads in of protesters (after they have been removed and so are no longer a problem)... heroes!

[Dr The Singh 4,464]

4 hours ago, MattP said:

The people comparing these twats to MLK or the Suffragettes should stop it.

 

Women and black people at those times didn't have the ballot box to change things, extinction rebellion do.

They remind me of a rich mans national front

[ozleicester 6,807]

7 hours ago, MC Prussian said:

Martin Luther King‘s struggle for the freedom of Black people in the US equals modern-day protesters?  Why conflate the two?

Let‘s assume we go down this route for argument‘s sake.

 

There is quite a bit of esoteric nonsense, part crude philosophical mishmash, a superficial pick&choose, where to start? Using quotes to suit oneself‘s own argument.

 

First of all, if we make the comparison, then it’s clear that the GW issue is being confronted and has been confronted for years, if not decades. If we want change, we also have to accept that people‘s behaviour doesn‘t change overnight and that technology doesn‘t come up with immediate solutions, it takes time from research to implementation.

 

Socrates also said that „he knows nothing and understands even less“. He also speaks of „an inwardness that begins with oneself“.

 

In the end, if we go down this route, all that remains here is another attempt at emotionalizing a debate, fearmongering, playing mind tricks, the primary use of the word „tension“ gives it away.

 

Tension isn‘t constructive, especially when it‘s being manufactured. It‘s a hindrance and has lots of potential for conflict.

If you read the quote, it talked about WHY they were performing direct action. This topic (apart from the posturing) has been asking why are XR doing what they are doing.

The quote is a simple explanation of it. 

Re "Tension" - perhaps re read this line....

The purpose of our direct action program is to create a situation so crisis packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation

 

edit, by the way there is no conflation.. perhaps another word you dont understand?

Edited 18 October 2019 by ozleicester

[UPinCarolina 2,645]

Can always count on glacial moderates, like some posters here, to demand the slowing of progress to a crawl when it ought to be accelerating. Good on the Extinction Rebellion. In the U.S., everyone's afraid to act directly.

Edited 18 October 2019 by UPinCarolina

[Guest MattP]

2 hours ago, UPinCarolina said:

Can always count on glacial moderates, like some posters here, to demand the slowing of progress to a crawl when it ought to be accelerating. Good on the Extinction Rebellion. In the U.S., everyone's afraid to act directly.

Who on here has demanded that? 

[leicsmac 4,247]

11 hours ago, Strokes said:

I can’t believe we’ve been arguing for days and it turns out we completely agree with each other

 

That's pretty much 99.9% of FT discourse tbf.