Getting brexit done!

[leicsmac]

50 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

To make the UK an independent nation and not part of the dubious EU superstate.

 

It's not about money.  That's something that pro-EU people have, by and large, failed to grasp.  They see the Brexit campaign (and presumably the SNP campaign as well) as purely based on what financial benefit it brings, or does not bring.  National identity and independence is a much bigger subject that that.  Just ask the Czechs, the Slovaks, the Serbs, the Croats, the Bosnians, the Montenegrans, the Kosovans, the Estonians, the Latvians, the Lithuanians, the Kurds, the Chechnyans, the Ukrainians, etc etc etc - national identity still means something to people.  Perhaps it shouldn't.  Perhaps a "grand idea" superstate where democracy is subordinate to finance is the way forward.  I hope not.

Subordinate to finance? Like you, I sincerely hope not.

 

Subordinate to the need to address a problem or problems that are global but not enough people can be convinced of it because it's not affecting everywhere yet? That...is another debate.

 

A massive and potentially fatal weakness of pursuing national identity is the failure to take issues outside of that nation seriously even when such issues are most evident and a collaborative rather than competitive effort is clearly called for.

[Carl the Llama]

Besides all that, democracy subordinate to finance is exactly how I'd describe our rulers of the past decade so I've no idea what Burnley guy's on about with Brexit being an antidote to that, it just gives them more free reign to chase lobbying money and give contracts to friends. 

 

Ie. roughly 8.30 in:

Yeah, real man of the people stuff.  "You guys spend a decade with austerity then lose your income to a natural event, we'll just be over here thinking about how much we deserve a pay rise after all the stress we've been through".

Edited 9 December 2020 by Carl the Llama

[Dahnsouff]

2 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Besides all that, democracy subordinate to finance is exactly how I'd describe our rulers of the past decade so I've no idea what Burnley guy's on about with Brexit being an antidote to that, it just gives them more free reign to chase lobbying money and give contracts to friends. 

When you change a system, you provide the opportunity for good and bad, neither should be assumed, and for those damning the Government, having it change on their watch must be undesirable surely?

[Carl the Llama]

3 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

When you change a system, you provide the opportunity for good and bad, neither should be assumed, and for those damning the Government, having it change on their watch must be undesirable surely?

This isn't about the system, it's about the behaviour we've already been able to observe from our politicians and this lot are greasy, grifters who have somehow enchanted the working class into believing their lives are so shit it doesn't matter if the Tories rip the piss out of them forever.

 

[Dahnsouff]

3 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

This isn't about the system, it's about the behaviour we've already been able to observe from our politicians and this lot are greasy, grifters who have somehow enchanted the working class into believing their lives are so shit it doesn't matter if the Tories rip the piss out of them forever.

Then why the hell would you (or me, as the working class) expect these self same p*ss takers be the one's to remove you from this "collective" that you purport to so abhor? 

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, dsr-burnley said:

To make the UK an independent nation and not part of the dubious EU superstate.

 

It's not about money.  That's something that pro-EU people have, by and large, failed to grasp.  They see the Brexit campaign (and presumably the SNP campaign as well) as purely based on what financial benefit it brings, or does not bring.  National identity and independence is a much bigger subject that that.  Just ask the Czechs, the Slovaks, the Serbs, the Croats, the Bosnians, the Montenegrans, the Kosovans, the Estonians, the Latvians, the Lithuanians, the Kurds, the Chechnyans, the Ukrainians, etc etc etc - national identity still means something to people.  Perhaps it shouldn't.  Perhaps a "grand idea" superstate where democracy is subordinate to finance is the way forward.  I hope not.

And yet of those nations you mention, there’s at least two politically trying their hardest to be in the EU. Largely due to the threat of Russia and wanting to benefit from the financial package the EU can provide 

Edited 9 December 2020 by Cardiff_Fox

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, Footballwipe said:

Interesting that the hardcore Brexit dwellers on this forum, and this thread, don't seem to have commented on this? Usually they're piling in to (sometimes rightly) highlight that it's not as bad as it seems, or embellished bad news.

 

I desperately hope it's not a sign of things to come. I don't want to live in a country wish is so negatively impacted by what I think is a ridiculous choice. If this is going to happen I want us to benefit. And yet... and yet, I can't see it, and things like this don't make me any more confident.

Most of them have been banned or left, along with the hardcore remainers.

[Strokes]

47 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

And yet of those nations you mention, there’s at least two politically trying their hardest to be in the EU. Largely due to the threat of Russia and wanting to benefit from the financial package the EU can provide 

Yay more net beneficiaries, I bet the Germans, French and Italians can’t wait to prop up more failing corrupt economies.

[Jon the Hat]

53 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

And yet of those nations you mention, there’s at least two politically trying their hardest to be in the EU. Largely due to the threat of Russia and wanting to benefit from the financial package the EU can provide 

If I can bet you one thing, it is that getting closer to the EU will help no one against Russia. See Ukraine.

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, Footballwipe said:

Interesting that the hardcore Brexit dwellers on this forum, and this thread, don't seem to have commented on this? Usually they're piling in to (sometimes rightly) highlight that it's not as bad as it seems, or embellished bad news.

 

I desperately hope it's not a sign of things to come. I don't want to live in a country wish is so negatively impacted by what I think is a ridiculous choice. If this is going to happen I want us to benefit. And yet... and yet, I can't see it, and things like this don't make me any more confident.

This is pretty sad for Bridgend I have to say, but it is hard to be surprised by the decision.  I have never quite believed the hype around the Grenadier, it was either going to be made somewhere cheaper or be so much more expensive than the alternatives that it fell flat on it;s face.  Throwing away the British made badge isn't going to help them though is it?  Like Dyson I think this will be short lived or never get made.

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

If I can bet you one thing, it is that getting closer to the EU will help no one against Russia. See Ukraine.

To be fair, no one else helped Ukraine against Russia either.

[Jon the Hat]

15 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

To be fair, no one else helped Ukraine against Russia either.

That is rather the point.  Ukraine flirted with the EU and look where that got them.

[CosbehFox]

28 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

If I can bet you one thing, it is that getting closer to the EU will help no one against Russia. See Ukraine.

Take a look at Montenegro in the last two years then 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

That is rather the point.  Ukraine flirted with the EU and look where that got them.

And it's my point too - we're just approaching it from different directions. Being in the EU would have been neither a negative nor a positive for Ukraine on this matter - I know you probably meant as such, but the way you laid out your post inferred it was a negative.

[bovril]

5 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

That is rather the point.  Ukraine flirted with the EU and look where that got them.

I'll concede this point if you explain how it supports the argument that leaving the EU is good for British people. 

[BKLFox]

18 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

No scaremongering here, actual reality. British company owned by Britain’s richest man who happens to be a huge Brexit supporter but is registered as a Monaco resident. 
 

The construction was expected to occur in Wales, it’s not now. It’s going to be in Germany

 

1 hour ago, Footballwipe said:

Interesting that the hardcore Brexit dwellers on this forum, and this thread, don't seem to have commented on this? Usually they're piling in to (sometimes rightly) highlight that it's not as bad as it seems, or embellished bad news.

 

I desperately hope it's not a sign of things to come. I don't want to live in a country wish is so negatively impacted by what I think is a ridiculous choice. If this is going to happen I want us to benefit. And yet... and yet, I can't see it, and things like this don't make me any more confident.

This reply is not a defence of Brexit just my mere musings on why they potentially opted for this new site.

 

This is a company that have never built a car, this car is the sole vision of a British man who loved the look & true off road capability of the original Land Rover & wants to bring this back, he had hoped to build this iconic LR doppelganger in the UK.

In order to do this they have to firstly secure & buy some land & then build a complete manufacturing & assembly plant on this land @ a cost of 'X' they would then initially employee just 200 people to operate this brand new plant, this would rise to 500 people if production proved sucessful.

This plant was also only going to be the assembly point in the main, with BMW supplying the engines, incidentally these are going to be built with 6 cylinder Petrol & Diesel engines which BMW have moved manufacturing of these to the UK with only electric engines being produced in Germany so there is still going to be toing & froing of parts from the UK, the body & chassis btw would have been manufactured in Portugal, its now possible these will be built in Hambach.

Now that would be a fair wedge to lay out on a vision, so is it perhaps feasible in securing a modern purpose built Mercedes Benz facility which already has a skilled workforce that can start operation immediately a less financial & risky option, after all it is a huge risk going after that particular model as the very 1st car you have ever built & have them as Petrol & Diesel options only with what loams in 5-10yrs for the combustible engine, there was obviously a reason Jaguar Land Rover stopped production of the Defender in the 1st place.

 

So maybe it has nothing to do with Brexit at all & the Headlines bigger than the sum of the reasoning behind it, remember these are just my thoughts as i tend not to knee jerk over everything i read or hear, Although i don't see anything within the report that comes from the company stating Brexit as the reason.

 

Incidently Daimler who currently used the Hambach site which is close to their Stuttgart HQ are rehousing their production to China, go figger.

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, BKLFox said:

 

This reply is not a defence of Brexit just my mere musings on why they potentially opted for this new site.

 

This is a company that have never built a car, this car is the sole vision of a British man who loved the look & true off road capability of the original Land Rover & wants to bring this back, he had hoped to build this iconic LR doppelganger in the UK.

In order to do this they have to firstly secure & buy some land & then build a complete manufacturing & assembly plant on this land @ a cost of 'X' they would then initially employee just 200 people to operate this brand new plant, this would rise to 500 people if production proved sucessful.

This plant was also only going to be the assembly point in the main, with BMW supplying the engines, incidentally these are going to be built with 6 cylinder Petrol & Diesel engines which BMW have moved manufacturing of these to the UK with only electric engines being produced in Germany so there is still going to be toing & froing of parts from the UK, the body & chassis btw would have been manufactured in Portugal, its now possible these will be built in Hambach.

Now that would be a fair wedge to lay out on a vision, so is it perhaps feasible in securing a modern purpose built Mercedes Benz facility which already has a skilled workforce that can start operation immediately a less financial & risky option, after all it is a huge risk going after that particular model as the very 1st car you have ever built & have them as Petrol & Diesel options only with what loams in 5-10yrs for the combustible engine, there was obviously a reason Jaguar Land Rover stopped production of the Defender in the 1st place.

 

So maybe it has nothing to do with Brexit at all & the Headlines bigger than the sum of the reasoning behind it, remember these are just my thoughts as i tend not to knee jerk over everything i read or hear, Although i don't see anything within the report that comes from the company stating Brexit as the reason.

 

Incidently Daimler who currently used the Hambach site which is close to their Stuttgart HQ are rehousing their production to China, go figger.

The land was already agreed - Welsh Government had committed funds to the infrastructure and roadways. 

 

Alongside that, the workforce was largely there - Ford had recently closed it's Bridgend factory. 

 

Yeah you I see your point - you can attribute it to cold old capitalism. But it's twists when it's from a bloke whose trumped the UK cause in his quest for Brexit, quoted back last September '“We have looked long and hard at possible manufacturing locations for Grenadier across the world with lots of good options to choose from. The decision to build in the UK is a significant expression of confidence in British manufacturing, which has always been at the heart of what Ineos stands for.”

Edited 9 December 2020 by Cardiff_Fox

[Carl the Llama]

3 hours ago, Dahnsouff said:

Then why the hell would you (or me, as the working class) expect these self same p*ss takers be the one's to remove you from this "collective" that you purport to so abhor? 

Assuming I've understood you correctly, I don't. Ive been very vocally pro EU since before Brexit was even a thing

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, Carl the Llama said:

Assuming I've understood you correctly, I don't. Ive been very vocally pro EU since before Brexit was even a thing

Sorry, you have misunderstood only because I wasn`t clear enough. I was trying to say an abstract you (you being somebody who was pro Brexit) which is actually neither of us by the sound of it  

[BKLFox]

27 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

The land was already agreed - Welsh Government had committed funds to the infrastructure and roadways. 

 

Alongside that, the workforce was largely there - Ford had recently closed his Bridgend factory. 

 

Yeah you I see your point - you can attribute it to cold old capitalism. But it's twists when it's from a bloke whose trumped the UK cause in his quest for Brexit, quoted back last September '“We have looked long and hard at possible manufacturing locations for Grenadier across the world with lots of good options to choose from. The decision to build in the UK is a significant expression of confidence in British manufacturing, which has always been at the heart of what Ineos stands for.”

Yep understand that a portion of funding would come from the Government as an incentive to lay down roots but i'm just merely pointing out a few things that could possibly add to reasons to look else where not soley due to Brexit.

The headlines should maybe read Hypcritical company boss elects to build outside of UK despite expressing his confidence in British manufacturing & maybe not mention Brexit or that he supported Brexit as nowhere does it state that is the reason for the change, the Ineos HQ remains in London.

 

As i mentioned this is a brand new venture for Ineos who are a chemical company, not car manufacturer, they will need all the helping hands they can get in trying to launch a vehicle previously mothballed by Jag LR & getting it built, advertised & sold.
The plant they are taking over is Daimler/Merc Benzs whom they have an affiliation with, they sponsor the Mercedes F1 team & have recently been linked to taking shareholdings in the team & even a possible buy out.
I mentioned that Daimler are moving production to China all except the Smart Eq fortwo which will stay in Hambach with Ineos picking up the build along with the current manufacturing team, knowledge, expertise, saftey net etc.

Where will the market be for these 4x4, yes there will be a few popping up in UK bought by the rich as will assume these will not come cheap but probably the European & US markets with their tougher terrains & wider roads, BMW manufacturer all their X series models in the states as thats the biggest market for those models & makes sense to do so.

 

The dirty wheels of capitalism are being greased with Ineos bedding in with a huge manufacturer like Daimler/Merc-Benz because it benefits both parties, that probably wouldn't happen in Bridgend.

 

Yes Brexit will probably show up on the list of pro/cons but is it THE reason which is what the headlines want us to believe & how its being used within this thread is all i'm getting at.

[Jon the Hat]

2 hours ago, bovril said:

I'll concede this point if you explain how it supports the argument that leaving the EU is good for British people. 

It doesn't it counters the point it quoted, that countries are trying to join the EU because it will help them against the threat of Russia.  It won't.

[StanSP]

Is there anyone on here that was pro Brexit but has now changed their mind over the past 4 years? 

[Jon the Hat]

3 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Is there anyone on here that was pro Brexit but has now changed their mind over the past 4 years? 

I was mildly pro Brexit but I am not very much **** the EU they can **** off for taking the piss.

[Buce]

 

I often see the 'threat' of a European Army cited as a reason to vote Leave.

 

Would any of the Leavers (are there really any left?) care to explain why?

[Dunge]

10 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I often see the 'threat' of a European Army cited as a reason to vote Leave.

 

Would any of the Leavers (are there really any left?) care to explain why?

I don’t want to dig too deep into this as Brexit feels like a wound that needs to heal rather than be torn open again, but I’d like to give an answer to this, if just to provide my perspective.

 

I voted leave and still would again today. Most friends and people I know voted remain (including my parents, interestingly) and I’ve been addressed angrily many times for my choice, but I stand by it. The European army situation feeds is representative of a big reason for my choice, and that is to do with how I feel about Britain. There was a topic on identity going around a little while back, and I said in that that I feel I identify strongly with being British. In foreign policy terms, I tend to feel Britain has it right. I feel America is too bombastic. I feel the EU is too preachy. And the less said about the likes of Russia, the better. But I see Britain’s approach as being diplomatic, helpful and respectful, but also tough when needed to be. I see us often as the adults in the room (granted more difficult with Boris as PM). I believe it makes us a good manager of nuclear weapons. And I believe all that’s worth arguing for, and a good, strong influence for the world that would get ever more diluted inside the EU.

 

I’m sure many here would disagree, and a more European or even internationalist identity would make a remain vote a no-brainer for you. Honestly, I’ve never argued against that. And I have no desire to delve into a long argument about whether we should have Brexited or not. But essentially, no; I haven’t changed my mind on it.