Getting brexit done!

[Guest Kopfkino]

6 hours ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Surprised there isn’t more activity in this thread. What’s occurring? Has the foot shooting started in earnest yet?

Why would there be? Brexit interest from the public is largely a function of the psychodrama of domestic politics surrounding it but that doesn’t really exist atm.

 

It’s symptomatic of the UK public’s interest in the EU and our relationship anyway. Didn’t pay attention when we were in, not gonna pay attention when we’re out until it creates a drama in domestic politics.

 

Why it’s this way idk. You could do threads on the next 10 German, French and EU elections and get nowhere near the amount of content in the US election thread.

 

Even when there is a deal the chat will be 98% nonsense. The deal will probably look like what you’d have imagined no deal to be in 2016, the militant Europhobes will whinge about it despite it giving them far more than they could ever have dreamed of, the newly formed group of fervent europhiles will declare it genius negotiating by the EU and tell us how we’re going to end up as a laggard akin to Zambia or something. The people that usually screech something about the bad Torwees will screech about the bad Torwees, Keir Starmer will most likely shirk it, draw a line under it and say we need to move on but he might actually do some opposition for a bit.

 

We’ll then all get on with life, notice some differences around the edges, not realise we’re getting relatively poorer. The Europhiles will use every event as confirmation that the EU is wonderful and the UK wretched, the Europhobes will take every event as confirmation that the EU is wretched and the Scotland-less UK is the most bestest country in the world tell us. And hopefully the rest of us can talk about post office closures again.

 

 

[Magictv]

I still find it absolutely mad that we're knowingly doing something that everyone appears to accept will make our country poorer

[Carl the Llama]

1 hour ago, Magictv said:

I still find it absolutely mad that we're knowingly doing something that everyone appears to accept will make our country poorer

Because enough people with ulterior motives convinced enough people that the current system is so set against them that they won't be the ones experiencing the negative consequences.  This has been the decade of conspiracy.

[davieG]

14 hours ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Surprised there isn’t more activity in this thread. What’s occurring? Has the foot shooting started in earnest yet?

It's all about Liverpool's long injury list, Brexit's on hold.

[bovril]

8 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

Why would there be? Brexit interest from the public is largely a function of the psychodrama of domestic politics surrounding it but that doesn’t really exist atm.

 

 

But from 1st Jan 2021 (although I have a feeling there'll be some kind of 'implementation period' / extension), it stops being merely a political psychodrama and becomes the UK outside the CU and SM and all that that entails, particularly in regards to N. Ireland. So it's wishful thinking that Brexit will continue to be merely one battleground of the culture wars when we start to see actual, tangible effects. As much as I'm sure the government and opposition would like to forget that Brexit ever happened, there will inevitably be a debate on the government's decisions and their consequences, which has to eventually be more than just 'sticking up for Britain' vs 'selling out to Brussels'. As difficult as that might be for a lot of the electorate. 

[Alf Bentley]

Merge the Brexit and Coronavirus threads? 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55005885

 

"The EU and UK chief negotiators have stepped back from post-Brexit trade talks after a member of the EU team tested positive for Covid-19. 

The EU's Michel Barnier said his UK counterpart Lord David Frost had agreed to suspend negotiations between them for a "short period".

[Spudulike]

Looks like the no dealers might be getting their way soon. Could get a bit tasty. 

[bovril]

This is not the future Daniel Hannan promised me. 

[Spudulike]

16 minutes ago, bovril said:

This is not the future Daniel Hannan promised me. 

Could be a good time to be a fish in the North Sea as no EU Super trawlers to worry about. Looks like Macron will have to explain that one to the revolting French fisher people. 

[Nick]

Never really believed this government were interested in a deal or at least ever believed they would get one with the lines drawn for the negotiating team.

 

I genuinely hope to be proved wrong but expect chaos!

[LVFox]

Feel sorry for those that voted for Brexit on the understanding no deal wouldn't happen, or that voted Conservative because of Boris' "oven ready deal". They've been well and truly let down

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

This is not the future Daniel Hannan promised me. 

He has moved from the extreme to the middle without changing his views!  It's almost funny.  Dan still has it right imo, seperate from the political structures and remain as close as possible to the trading bloc.  We will get there, although I must say my confidence in a deal in the next week is wavering.  If we do go no deal I look forward to the French fishing lobby making it's views known to Macron very very firmly.

Edited 7 December 2020 by Jon the Hat

[Greg2607]

It was always going to come down to the wire in terms of negotiations.  If it didn't, then it would have made both parties look like it was too easy to broker a deal and lots of countries looking at whether they wanted to remain part of the EU Bloc would suddenly think it was easy to leave. 

 

That being said, it does strike me as madness, that the EU don't think we have the right to Marshall who has access to our own waters.  Is it right that we would be the only island state in the world that didn't have this right?

 

I did vote for Brexit (not with anything against the people who live inside the EU) but because I wanted our Country to have the ability to makes it's own laws and decisions. 

 

I didn't necessarily think that we would have hashed it all up quite this badly though!

[bovril]

5 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

He has moved from the extreme to the middle without changing his views!  It's almost funny.  Dan still has it right imo, seperate from the political structures and remain as close as possible to the trading bloc.  We will get there, although I must say my confidence in a deal in the next week is wavering.  If we do go no deal I look forward to the French fishing lobby making it's views known to Macron very very firmly.

Hannan is a typical Brexiter in that he sees the world the way he wants to see it, not the way it is. The fact that Brexiters have been saying for years that the EU is a 'political project' rather than an economic one makes it all the more surprising they thought the EU would simply gift us a free trade deal.

[Carl the Llama]

45 minutes ago, LVocey said:

Feel sorry for those that voted for Brexit on the understanding no deal wouldn't happen, or that voted Conservative because of Boris' "oven ready deal". They've been well and truly let down

Surely they need to stop feeling sorry for themselves and get on with making no-deal Brexit work.

[dsr-burnley]

43 minutes ago, bovril said:

Hannan is a typical Brexiter in that he sees the world the way he wants to see it, not the way it is. The fact that Brexiters have been saying for years that the EU is a 'political project' rather than an economic one makes it all the more surprising they thought the EU would simply gift us a free trade deal.

Actually there was never any question of asking for a gift.  I think that's a pretty widespread misunderstanding.  What the UK wanted was something similar to what the EU apparently wanted before the referendum - that our trade with them, and their trade with us, would be free trade on both sides - no restrictions, no tariffs. Or if that's not possible, something similar to what other non-EU countries have managed to negotiate.  

 

The EU has a large trade surplus with the UK.  You would have thought they would be anxious to preserve it, not to risk it for the sake of political posturing.

[bovril]

7 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

Actually there was never any question of asking for a gift.  I think that's a pretty widespread misunderstanding.  What the UK wanted was something similar to what the EU apparently wanted before the referendum - that our trade with them, and their trade with us, would be free trade on both sides - no restrictions, no tariffs. Or if that's not possible, something similar to what other non-EU countries have managed to negotiate.  

 

The EU has a large trade surplus with the UK.  You would have thought they would be anxious to preserve it, not to risk it for the sake of political posturing.

It's not posturing, it's not wanting competition from an ex member 20 miles from their shores. Brexiters of all people should've understood they'd take this position considering they always talked about the EU being a protectionist bloc.

[dsr-burnley]

4 minutes ago, bovril said:

It's not posturing, it's not wanting competition from an ex member 20 miles from their shores. Brexiters of all people should've understood they'd take this position considering they always talked about the EU being a protectionist bloc.

But while protecting their own trade by restricting their imports, they're also damaging their own industry by restricting their exports.  And their exports to the UK, especially of goods, are very much higher than their imports.  That, you're quite correct, is what Brexiters can't understand.  The EU is bigger, it's winning the greater share of the trade, so what's its problem?  Answer - political power.  They're losing it and they don't want to.

[Jon the Hat]

2 hours ago, LVocey said:

Feel sorry for those that voted for Brexit on the understanding no deal wouldn't happen, or that voted Conservative because of Boris' "oven ready deal". They've been well and truly let down

No deal hasn't happened yet., and the "oven ready" phrase was related to the withdrawal agreement, not the post Brexit trade deal.  He delivered on that.

[Nalis]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

It's not posturing, it's not wanting competition from an ex member 20 miles from their shores. Brexiters of all people should've understood they'd take this position considering they always talked about the EU being a protectionist bloc.

Exactly, what sort of message does it send to other current EU that might have cold feet about the EU if they know the UK will get a better deal than most envisage?

 

Although I'm a remainer I do selfishly want as good a deal as possible.

[Jon the Hat]

2 minutes ago, Nalis said:

Exactly, what sort of message does it send to other current EU that might have cold feet about the EU if they know the UK will get a better deal than most envisage?

 

Although I'm a remainer I do selfishly want as good a deal as possible.

I'm not even sure it is that well thought out, I think the EU genuinely don't understand why we expect to be free of the shackles of the EU.  This fishing nonsense for example - all we are asking for is what Norway have as a bordering nation.  It's not unreasonable, and we are allowing a period to transition to it.

[Strokes]

4 minutes ago, Nalis said:

Exactly, what sort of message does it send to other current EU that might have cold feet about the EU if they know the UK will get a better deal than most envisage?

 

Although I'm a remainer I do selfishly want as good a deal as possible.

What kind of message does it send to any country wishing to join the block, that you will get fúcked on the way out?

[bovril]

Just now, Jon the Hat said:

I'm not even sure it is that well thought out, I think the EU genuinely don't understand why we expect to be free of the shackles of the EU.  This fishing nonsense for example - all we are asking for is what Norway have as a bordering nation.  It's not unreasonable, and we are allowing a period to transition to it.

They do understand, which is why they are keen not to give up the LPF. And many on the EU side believe that even if the UK signs up to a LPF, we will break promises later. 

 

Easiest deal in history, etc etc. 

[Nalis]

18 minutes ago, Strokes said:

What kind of message does it send to any country wishing to join the block, that you will get fúcked on the way out?

My comment was more about the countries currently in the EU rather than prospective countries who wish to join.

 

It probably suits the EU as 27 members is enough anyway.

[ealingfox]

36 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

No deal hasn't happened yet., and the "oven ready" phrase was related to the withdrawal agreement, not the post Brexit trade deal.  He delivered on that.

 

The withdrawal agreement that they've now reneged on? Doesn't sound like it was oven-ready.