Getting brexit done!

[davieG]

40 minutes ago, Fightforever said:

To stop the chances of another world war happening by making Europe closely tied together?

It was to create a Common Market

37 minutes ago, Fightforever said:

I know that European union started off as trading block but didn't it start after WW2. I know it was a crucial part of the thinking that lead to making it happen.

That would be the United Nations founded in 1945

 

It may have been the long term aim of the Common Market / EU but it started out as a trading block in 1951 and became the Common Market in 1957

[bovril]

May can **** off, she is responsible also for the mess with her red lines and 'no deal is better than a bad deal' bollocks.

 

43 minutes ago, Strokes said:

It can’t even stop war happening on its doorstep, Bosnia anyone.

 

This started before the EU even existed. 

[bovril]

It is always interesting however to see people who claim the EU has too much power complaining it isn't able to stop wars. 

Edited 19 October 2020 by bovril

[Fightforever]

38 minutes ago, bovril said:

May can **** off, she is responsible also for the mess with her red lines and 'no deal is better than a bad deal' bollocks.

 

 

This started before the EU even existed. 

Yeah the ottomans left the balkans in a mess simmilar to us with how we left the india pakistan borders when we left it was powder keg waiting to blow. 

[Claridge]

Some people say the EU was a success because it avoided war And death in Europe. If you ignore the 10s of millions who died in Russia I suppose it’s bought peace.

[Alf Bentley]

9 hours ago, Claridge said:

Some people say the EU was a success because it avoided war And death in Europe. If you ignore the 10s of millions who died in Russia I suppose it’s bought peace.

 

Which "10s of millions who died in Russia" are you referring to?

 

Precise figures are disputed, but millions were killed in the USSR/Russia under Stalin - mainly in the 1930s and Stalin died in 1953.

Millions of Russians also died fighting the Nazis during WW2 - between 1941 and 1945.

 

But the EEC (EU forerunner) wasn't even created until 1957 (Treaty of Rome). When did "10s of millions" die in Russia after 1957 for which the EU or EEC can be blamed?

I'm aware that the USSR was a brutal regime and some dissidents were killed or brutalised after 1957 - and Putin's Russia hardly has clean hands - but "10s of millions"? 

[Strokes]

14 hours ago, bovril said:

May can **** off, she is responsible also for the mess with her red lines and 'no deal is better than a bad deal' bollocks.

 

 

This started before the EU even existed. 

The EU/ECC same thing different hat.

[Finnaldo]

10 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Which "10s of millions who died in Russia" are you referring to?

 

Precise figures are disputed, but millions were killed in the USSR/Russia under Stalin - mainly in the 1930s and Stalin died in 1953.

Millions of Russians also died fighting the Nazis during WW2 - between 1941 and 1945.

 

But the EEC (EU forerunner) wasn't even created until 1957 (Treaty of Rome). When did "10s of millions" die in Russia after 1957 for which the EU or EEC can be blamed?

I'm aware that the USSR was a brutal regime and some dissidents were killed or brutalised after 1957 - and Putin's Russia hardly has clean hands - but "10s of millions"? 

I have a feeling he may be talking about the nineties after the fall of the Union - although it wasn’t tens of millions from my quick check it was still 2-3 million extra ‘premature’ deaths than normal times in Russia, mainly thanks to Yeltsin’s ‘Shock Therapy’, but whatever timeframe I think it’s a bit harsh to say they couldn’t prevent death within a Nuclear Power’s borders - they’re not exactly the nations you can just march into...
 

That said, as a ‘Eurosceptic Remainer’ I do think the EU’s diplomacy is rather poor. Again the Bosnian War was a hard one to contain, but more recently outside of outright war, its not been able to effectively combat the likes of the Guardia Civil in Catalonia being deployed to truncheon old ladies out of voting booths, and Orban pretty much declaring a dictatorship. The issue is that realistically, economic integration and the threat of severance from that is the biggest deterrent for war, use of political violence or would-be dictators, but the political wing is so keen to avoid any palaver that it’ll avoid the use of any of this leverage. 
 

It seemed, only those dependant on the EU (Greece) and those who were the most compliant (for a long time, the UK) get punished, meanwhile those who commit awful internal crimes get a couple murmurs of condemnation before being moved swiftly on. 
 

That said, I’m of the opinion you’re better off inside to reform than the outside, but that’s another conversation. 

 

 

[Claridge]

39 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Which "10s of millions who died in Russia" are you referring to?

 

Precise figures are disputed, but millions were killed in the USSR/Russia under Stalin - mainly in the 1930s and Stalin died in 1953.

Millions of Russians also died fighting the Nazis during WW2 - between 1941 and 1945.

 

But the EEC (EU forerunner) wasn't even created until 1957 (Treaty of Rome). When did "10s of millions" die in Russia after 1957 for which the EU or EEC can be blamed?

I'm aware that the USSR was a brutal regime and some dissidents were killed or brutalised after 1957 - and Putin's Russia hardly has clean hands - but "10s of millions"? 

I suppose if you ignore the Czechs, Hungarians, East Germans, poles, Slavs etc... that died as well, then you could ignore the millions of deaths in Europe, figures are hard to be verified because Russia hid them as there were almost certainly millions

[twoleftfeet]

Actually you can trace the origins back to 1944 and the Benelux countries free trade agreement

[Alf Bentley]

10 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

I have a feeling he may be talking about the nineties after the fall of the Union - although it wasn’t tens of millions from my quick check it was still 2-3 million extra ‘premature’ deaths than normal times in Russia, mainly thanks to Yeltsin’s ‘Shock Therapy’, but whatever timeframe I think it’s a bit harsh to say they couldn’t prevent death within a Nuclear Power’s borders - they’re not exactly the nations you can just march into...
 

That said, as a ‘Eurosceptic Remainer’ I do think the EU’s diplomacy is rather poor. Again the Bosnian War was a hard one to contain, but more recently outside of outright war, its not been able to effectively combat the likes of the Guardia Civil in Catalonia being deployed to truncheon old ladies out of voting booths, and Orban pretty much declaring a dictatorship. The issue is that realistically, economic integration and the threat of severance from that is the biggest deterrent for war, use of political violence or would-be dictators, but the political wing is so keen to avoid any palaver that it’ll avoid the use of any of this leverage. 
 

It seemed, only those dependant on the EU (Greece) and those who were the most compliant (for a long time, the UK) get punished, meanwhile those who commit awful internal crimes get a couple murmurs of condemnation before being moved swiftly on. 
 

That said, I’m of the opinion you’re better off inside to reform than the outside, but that’s another conversation. 

 

 

 

Good response, though whether the Yeltsin era is what the OP was referring to, I've no idea.

 

I'd like the EU to have more of a (democratically-decided) united voice on foreign/defence policy.

Though, as @bovril pointed out, it's often those most hostile to a strong EU or to the EU straying beyond market/trade policy who are most critical of its alleged "weakness" in these areas.

 

Issues like Catalonia or Hungary are a difficult balancing act. Despite what some Eurosceptics say, in lots of policy areas (not all, obviously) the EU is still a collection of nation states who've agreed to pool some of their sovereignty.

How much should the EU intervene in the domestic affairs of a nation state? It has to demand certain minimum standards of lawful, democratic behaviour by members - and it could be argued that Catalonia & Orban represented breaches of that.

But how would we react, for example, if the EU had intervened more in Johnson's anti-democratic attempt to prorogue parliament - or if the police end up baton-charging Scottish Nationalists protesting at being refused a second independence referendum? Tricky and potentially very controversial tightrope to walk....

[Jon the Hat]

On 16/10/2020 at 15:12, WigstonWanderer said:

I dare say they’ll cobble together some sort of half arsed deal to save face on both sides, but both will be poorer for it.

On the contrary. This was always going to go to the wire, that is how the EU negotiates.  Compromise also inevitable.  There has already been a lot of movement behind the scenes.

Meanwhile, the impact of Covid means that Brexit is will be significantly less impactful should it all go wrong.

[Alf Bentley]

7 minutes ago, Claridge said:

I suppose if you ignore the Czechs, Hungarians, East Germans, poles, Slavs etc... that died as well, then you could ignore the millions of deaths in Europe, figures are hard to be verified because Russia hid them as there were almost certainly millions

 

But you sought to at least partly blame the EU because "10s of millions died in Russia". When did those 10s of millions die, for which the EU supposedly bore some responsibility? 

 

The USSR undoubtedly brutalised and oppressed tens of millions across East/Central Europe as well as in Russia - and killed some, not least Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1968.....not to mention Putin's dictatorship & recent Russian action in Ukraine.

But "10s of millions" outside of WW2 or Stalin's purges of the 1930s, before the EEC/EU existed?

[bovril]

57 minutes ago, Strokes said:

The EU/ECC same thing different hat.

The central thesis of the Brexit campaign was that it isn't. 

[Strokes]

13 minutes ago, bovril said:

The central thesis of the Brexit campaign was that it isn't. 

And you guys said it was

 

[Claridge]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

But you sought to at least partly blame the EU because "10s of millions died in Russia". When did those 10s of millions die, for which the EU supposedly bore some responsibility? 

 

The USSR undoubtedly brutalised and oppressed tens of millions across East/Central Europe as well as in Russia - and killed some, not least Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1968.....not to mention Putin's dictatorship & recent Russian action in Ukraine.

But "10s of millions" outside of WW2 or Stalin's purges of the 1930s, before the EEC/EU existed?

The EU was partly set up to stop war , atrocities etc... happening, I was just saying that people who claim it was a success in doing this are wrong. I never claimed it was their fault.

[Alf Bentley]

9 minutes ago, Claridge said:

The EU was partly set up to stop war , atrocities etc... happening, I was just saying that people who claim it was a success in doing this are wrong. I never claimed it was their fault.

 

That's certainly a point that can be argued by anyone who wants the EU to exert foreign policy influence beyond its boundaries. Massively hypocritical criticism from anyone who doesn't want that, of course.

Bosnia and Ukraine are examples that can be used to argue that point.

 

It remains true that there haven't been major conflicts between EEC/EU members during the 60+ years of its existence....whereas the previous 40 years saw 2 mass conflagrations & previous centuries weren't exactly peaceful in Europe.

 

Time will tell, but the chances of some nasty tensions arising out of clashes at sea between British & EU fishing vessels, coastguard or navy support boats might increase if there's a Brexit No Deal.

 

I give up on trying to get an answer as to when, during the existence of the EEC/EU, "10s of millions died in Russia"....

[Carl the Llama]

2 hours ago, Finnaldo said:

I have a feeling he may be talking about the nineties after the fall of the Union - although it wasn’t tens of millions from my quick check it was still 2-3 million extra ‘premature’ deaths than normal times in Russia, mainly thanks to Yeltsin’s ‘Shock Therapy’, but whatever timeframe I think it’s a bit harsh to say they couldn’t prevent death within a Nuclear Power’s borders - they’re not exactly the nations you can just march into...
 

That said, as a ‘Eurosceptic Remainer’ I do think the EU’s diplomacy is rather poor. Again the Bosnian War was a hard one to contain, but more recently outside of outright war, its not been able to effectively combat the likes of the Guardia Civil in Catalonia being deployed to truncheon old ladies out of voting booths, and Orban pretty much declaring a dictatorship. The issue is that realistically, economic integration and the threat of severance from that is the biggest deterrent for war, use of political violence or would-be dictators, but the political wing is so keen to avoid any palaver that it’ll avoid the use of any of this leverage. 
 

It seemed, only those dependant on the EU (Greece) and those who were the most compliant (for a long time, the UK) get punished, meanwhile those who commit awful internal crimes get a couple murmurs of condemnation before being moved swiftly on. 
 

That said, I’m of the opinion you’re better off inside to reform than the outside, but that’s another conversation. 

 

 

When have we ever been one of the most compliant? We've always been the nation that gets away with a bunch of special exemptions from having to be as compliant as the rest.  That's why it never made sense to leave to regain control because we were never really under any thumb.

[Finnaldo]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

When have we ever been one of the most compliant? We've always been the nation that gets away with a bunch of special exemptions from having to be as compliant as the rest.  That's why it never made sense to leave to regain control because we were never really under any thumb.

I wouldn’t call negotiating exceptions as being non-compliant, instead that’s seeking compliance no? Rather than just going out brazen and doing it regardless, and what framework we were under we kept to. I was under the impression places like France are a lot more ‘flexible‘ with EU rulings, especially fiscal expectations, and tend to get away with it. 
 

I’d agree we’re not under the thumb, in fact I believe we had clout to change things and reform the system, hence I voted Remain. 

[Spudulike]

On 17/10/2020 at 20:49, st albans fox said:

The fishing aspect is just a red herring (sorry)

 

both sides are using fishing as being the sticking point as both sides are prepared to do a deal over the fishing (it’s not a big deal financially so a compromise of sorts can be painted as a win ) 

 

the ‘level paying field’ is a far larger problem .......

Not according to the EU's chief negotiator. It's all about fish and the French have painted themselves into a corner. 

 

Macron holds the key

[st albans fox]

54 minutes ago, Spudulike said:

Not according to the EU's chief negotiator. It's all about fish and the French have painted themselves into a corner. 

 

Macron holds the key

smokescreen - we could make every French fisherman a mult millionaire to take early retirement and still be ahead - the fishing narrative gives each side the opportunity to paint their climb down as a victory...…….

[WigstonWanderer]

Surprised there isn’t more activity in this thread. What’s occurring? Has the foot shooting started in earnest yet?

[Sly]

I get the opinion most people have grown tired of it and it’s almost 2nd page news with Corona being ever present. Most people just want to move forwards now.
 

I was just catching up on the last few pages and reading the opinions on “war”. Was the EU perfect, no. Could it have done more “yes”. However has it stopped wars elsewhere ..... more than likely. 
 

I look at the whole thing like this, the EU want to distribute the wealth across the continent. It’s not dissimilar to what our government does, balancing the wealth from London into poorer regions in this country. I personally have nothing wrong with that, however feel a better structure is required for the EU, for it to work effectively. 

[Innovindil]

4 hours ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Surprised there isn’t more activity in this thread. What’s occurring? Has the foot shooting started in earnest yet?

Tbf we're all playing the waiting game, same as the last few months. Differences remain in a deal which will probably go to the wire. Not really a lot to discuss until that's either settled or thrown out. 

[Buce]

4 hours ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Surprised there isn’t more activity in this thread. What’s occurring? Has the foot shooting started in earnest yet?

 

It's the elephant in the room, I think.