Getting brexit done!

[bovril]

1 minute ago, surrifox said:

Hmm . Yes but that still sounds like “you can leave on whatever terms you like as long as you don’t leave “

 

 

It sounds like the EU protecting its collective interests in a way the EU was designed to do. It didn't help that many people - including people in government - didn't understand how the EU works and thought we could do trade deals with Germany and Italy. 

 

I don't think the EU is cuddly and wonderful, I just think perhaps we shouldn't have picked this fight.

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, StanSP said:

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/temporary-relaxation-of-the-enforcement-of-the-drivers-hours-rules-all-sectors-carriage-of-goods-by-road
Here we are, was relaxed in March too for the lockdown.

It wasn’t much of a drama then and it won’t be now unless your drunk on brexit toxicity.

[StanSP]

5 minutes ago, Strokes said:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/temporary-relaxation-of-the-enforcement-of-the-drivers-hours-rules-all-sectors-carriage-of-goods-by-road
Here we are, was relaxed in March too for the lockdown.

It wasn’t much of a drama then and it won’t be now unless your drunk on brexit toxicity.

Fvcking hammered mate 

[Jon the Hat]

30 minutes ago, bovril said:

It sounds like the EU protecting its collective interests in a way the EU was designed to do. It didn't help that many people - including people in government - didn't understand how the EU works and thought we could do trade deals with Germany and Italy. 

 

I don't think the EU is cuddly and wonderful, I just think perhaps we shouldn't have picked this fight.

I'm not sure in the long run we had any choice but to pick a fight seeing as most of our population don't support closer integration and never have.

[Kopfkino]

37 minutes ago, bovril said:

It sounds like the EU protecting its collective interests in a way the EU was designed to do. It didn't help that many people - including people in government - didn't understand how the EU works and thought we could do trade deals with Germany and Italy. 

 

I don't think the EU is cuddly and wonderful, I just think perhaps we shouldn't have picked this fight.

But to repackage the original point, it’s a bit strange that the EU is so worried about the UK being able to make a success of Brexit. In fact, it seems to me the EU has more faith in Brexit than the UK collectively does.

 

You look at the apparent recent development where the EU has supposedly put a variant of dynamic alignment back on the table instead of non-regression. It doesn’t say a lot for the value of the single market and customs union if the EU thinks divergence could give the UK an advantage greater than being in the SM and CU. If it’s not that, then the other reason is punitive but that’s not in anyone’s collective interest.

That’s not me passing a value judgement on the matter but that’s how it looks. On the other hand, you can wonder why the UK wants freedoms it’s unlikely to use particularly extensively or even why they are particularly bothered about punishment for divergence in the future when they’re willing to have that outcome in a matter of weeks.

[Spudulike]

A no deal is really going to devastate RoI. Seems they've slipped down the EU's order of priority now they are not useful in negotiations. 

 

Coveney was quoted as saying the deal was 97/98% complete last week until the goalposts moved again. So is it still the case that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed ? 

[WigstonWanderer]

1 hour ago, Kopfkino said:

But to repackage the original point, it’s a bit strange that the EU is so worried about the UK being able to make a success of Brexit. In fact, it seems to me the EU has more faith in Brexit than the UK collectively does.

 

You look at the apparent recent development where the EU has supposedly put a variant of dynamic alignment back on the table instead of non-regression. It doesn’t say a lot for the value of the single market and customs union if the EU thinks divergence could give the UK an advantage greater than being in the SM and CU. If it’s not that, then the other reason is punitive but that’s not in anyone’s collective interest.

That’s not me passing a value judgement on the matter but that’s how it looks. On the other hand, you can wonder why the UK wants freedoms it’s unlikely to use particularly extensively or even why they are particularly bothered about punishment for divergence in the future when they’re willing to have that outcome in a matter of weeks.

But an advantage likely based on sacrificing food & environmental standards, workers rights, etc. A proper race to the bottom.

[davieG]

BBC

 

The EU has published contingency plans in case of the possible collapse of Brexit trade talks with the UK.

 

 

The EU's contingency plans
A statement by the European Commission - the EU executive - published on Thursday said there was currently "significant uncertainty" about whether a deal would be in place by 1 January.

"Our responsibility is to be prepared for all eventualities, including not having a deal in place," Ms von der Leyen said.

Some sectors would be disproportionately affected, the commission said, adding that it was proposing four contingency measures "to mitigate some of the significant disruptions" if a deal were not in place:

To ensure the provision of "certain air services" between the UK and EU for six months, provided the UK does the same
To allow aviation safety certificates to be used in EU aircraft without disruption to avoid grounding
To ensure basic connectivity for road freight and passenger transport for six months, provided the UK does the same
To allow the possibility of reciprocal fishing access for UK and EU vessels in each other's waters for one year, or until an agreement is reached
Reacting to the plans, Boris Johnson's spokesman said the UK government would look "very closely at the details" and that negotiators were "continuing to work to see if the two sides could bridge the remaining gaps".

[Innovindil]

1 minute ago, davieG said:

BBC

 

The EU has published contingency plans in case of the possible collapse of Brexit trade talks with the UK.

 

 

The EU's contingency plans
A statement by the European Commission - the EU executive - published on Thursday said there was currently "significant uncertainty" about whether a deal would be in place by 1 January.

"Our responsibility is to be prepared for all eventualities, including not having a deal in place," Ms von der Leyen said.

Some sectors would be disproportionately affected, the commission said, adding that it was proposing four contingency measures "to mitigate some of the significant disruptions" if a deal were not in place:

To ensure the provision of "certain air services" between the UK and EU for six months, provided the UK does the same
To allow aviation safety certificates to be used in EU aircraft without disruption to avoid grounding
To ensure basic connectivity for road freight and passenger transport for six months, provided the UK does the same
To allow the possibility of reciprocal fishing access for UK and EU vessels in each other's waters for one year, or until an agreement is reached
Reacting to the plans, Boris Johnson's spokesman said the UK government would look "very closely at the details" and that negotiators were "continuing to work to see if the two sides could bridge the remaining gaps".

They really want these fish eh. 

[bovril]

2 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

But to repackage the original point, it’s a bit strange that the EU is so worried about the UK being able to make a success of Brexit. In fact, it seems to me the EU has more faith in Brexit than the UK collectively does.

 

You look at the apparent recent development where the EU has supposedly put a variant of dynamic alignment back on the table instead of non-regression. It doesn’t say a lot for the value of the single market and customs union if the EU thinks divergence could give the UK an advantage greater than being in the SM and CU. If it’s not that, then the other reason is punitive but that’s not in anyone’s collective interest.

That’s not me passing a value judgement on the matter but that’s how it looks. On the other hand, you can wonder why the UK wants freedoms it’s unlikely to use particularly extensively or even why they are particularly bothered about punishment for divergence in the future when they’re willing to have that outcome in a matter of weeks.

I guess because it's about making it palatable for the electorate on both sides. Nobody wants to be seen as having compromised. And I imagine there's very little trust remaining between the two parties. 

[String fellow]

Is Angela Merkel's heir Ursula von der Leyen, the President of the European Commission, as honest as she looks? Apparently, much of her doctoral thesis was plagiarised, and numerous citations made in it didn't back up her claims, but she survived a review into whether or not her medical doctorate should be removed. I suppose such credentials make her an ideal politician.   

[bovril]

4 minutes ago, String fellow said:

Is Angela Merkel's heir Ursula von der Leyen, the President of the European Commission, as honest as she looks? Apparently, much of her doctoral thesis was plagiarised, and numerous citations made in it didn't back up her claims, but she survived a review into whether or not her medical doctorate should be removed. I suppose such credentials make her an ideal politician.   

source?

[surrifox]

1 hour ago, Innovindil said:

They really want these fish eh. 

It really is unbelievable BS 

[ealingfox]

36 minutes ago, String fellow said:

Is Angela Merkel's heir Ursula von der Leyen, the President of the European Commission, as honest as she looks? Apparently, much of her doctoral thesis was plagiarised, and numerous citations made in it didn't back up her claims, but she survived a review into whether or not her medical doctorate should be removed. I suppose such credentials make her an ideal politician.   

 

Yes imagine having a political leader who had been caught lying in a professional capacity. We'd never have that in the UK.

[surrifox]

5 hours ago, bovril said:

The EU have said from the start that we can have as soft a Brexit as we like. Full membership of the single market as long as we sign up to the rules. That would've been the easiest deal in history, and it wouldn't have brought ruin and disaster. The problem is we would've still had freedom of movement, which is why the government ruled it out from the start. 

People need to at least admit that rock hard Brexit is our choice, nobody else's. 

That would also sound a bit less like cant if they hadn’t refused a Canada style deal  on the basis that we were too close to the bloc  / had too much red in our flag or some other plausible reason 

[LVFox]

I still think a lot of this is either side seeing who will blink first....there's just a very good chance no-one will.

 

[Stivo]

4 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

But to repackage the original point, it’s a bit strange that the EU is so worried about the UK being able to make a success of Brexit. In fact, it seems to me the EU has more faith in Brexit than the UK collectively does.

 

You look at the apparent recent development where the EU has supposedly put a variant of dynamic alignment back on the table instead of non-regression. It doesn’t say a lot for the value of the single market and customs union if the EU thinks divergence could give the UK an advantage greater than being in the SM and CU. If it’s not that, then the other reason is punitive but that’s not in anyone’s collective interest.

That’s not me passing a value judgement on the matter but that’s how it looks. On the other hand, you can wonder why the UK wants freedoms it’s unlikely to use particularly extensively or even why they are particularly bothered about punishment for divergence in the future when they’re willing to have that outcome in a matter of weeks.

This may be a daft question but do trade deals not have a  termination clause?  If so then wouldn’t the EU have the option of terminating it in 5 years time if we had diverged in a way that they didn’t like?

[surrifox]

22 minutes ago, Stivo said:

This may be a daft question but do trade deals not have a  termination clause?  If so then wouldn’t the EU have the option of terminating it in 5 years time if we had diverged in a way that they didn’t like?

Stop this sort of sensible suggestion immediately , it conflicts with the increasingly demented brinkmanship and sabre rattling that both parties have decided is the best way to conduct negotiations 

[Jon the Hat]

3 minutes ago, surrifox said:

Stop this sort of sensible suggestion immediately , it conflicts with the increasingly demented brinkmanship and sabre rattling that both parties have decided is the best way to conduct negotiations 

It all seems pretty calm to me.  They are clear on where the gaps are.  They just have no intention of moving from their unreasonable position.  I think they know by now that we are not going to cede sovereignty of our waters, or sign up to have to change our laws to stay aligned with theirs with no reciprocal clause.  It comes down to this point I think - it really is in their court.  Boris has been very clear he is not going to move on this.  The irony being our standards are higher than the EU's and we are offering a multi year transition on fishing rights. 

[Kopfkino]

3 hours ago, WigstonWanderer said:

But an advantage likely based on sacrificing food & environmental standards, workers rights, etc. A proper race to the bottom.

But that’s why I made non-regression to baseline and asking for dynamic alignment looks a bit insecure. No race to the bottom (not that I believe anything of the sort would occur anyway) with non-regression as have to meet current standards (which the UK goes beyond in most cases anyway).

 

Its just a bit insecure to talk about threats to the integrity of the single market from a country having tariff and quota free access to it. Either the SM, in combination with the CU, is much superior to an FTA and so the UK just having tariff and quota free access to it is pretty limiting, or it isn’t that superior and the foundations of the EU are shaky. 

 

Now, I think there is significant benefit to the SM over an FTA so I just find the insecurity a bit weird. They have the better product, they don’t need to be like a monopolist trying to dampen competition when they should be able to outcompete 

[String fellow]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

source?

Several, including this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35769001

Maybe she should be called Ursula von der Lying!

 

 

[Buce]

3 minutes ago, String fellow said:

Several, including this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35769001

Maybe she should be called Ursula von der Lying!

 

 

 

That actually exonerates her.

[Kopfkino]

1 hour ago, Stivo said:

This may be a daft question but do trade deals not have a  termination clause?  If so then wouldn’t the EU have the option of terminating it in 5 years time if we had diverged in a way that they didn’t like?

Not really termination clauses but they have arbitration mechanisms that allow parties to whack tariffs and quotas back on if the agreement is breached. It’d be a pretty big breakdown (or just a standard day at the office for Trump) for a whole agreement to be breached such that you’d want it completely terminated. 

 

And this is supposedly the EU ask now (it could also be negotiation tactic) and is similar to an old UK proposal. The EU supposedly is now asking that if it ups it’s regulation and the UK doesn’t follow, it can apply tariffs. May put forward the proposal that the UK aligned now and if it wanted to diverge later, the EU could apply tariffs.

 

 

[yorkie1999]

So according to Boris, the current deal that's on the table is not for us because if the EU decides to have a haircut, then the UK has to have a haircut! Now i'm all for analogies, but... this bloke is a fvckin moron.

[Dahnsouff]

2 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

So according to Boris, the current deal that's on the table is not for us because if the EU decides to have a haircut, then the UK has to have a haircut! Now i'm all for analogies, but... this bloke is a fvckin moron.

Empathy and relatability are not his forte - anyway, she probably just told him he needs a bloody haircut and he took offence