Getting brexit done!

[Spudulike]

17 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

It's mental to think it's been nearly 4 and a half years since we all voted in regards to this, at least it finally feels like we're coming towards the end.

 

3 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

The beginning of the end more like.

Hotel California. 

[Jon the Hat]

17 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

The beginning of the end more like.

The end is the beginning is the end.

[Voll Blau]

37 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I know.  It is the direct result of the amount of time wasted dicking about with remainers who wouldn;t accept the result, and an EU who directly engaged with them to frustrate the result of the referendum.  I am delighted we are finally getting there for that reason alone.  A country should be free to join and leave unions as it sees fit, and the Eurocrats must learn to accept that.  As I have said many times before the EU is doomed anyway, but at this speed it might take another decade for the real collapse to start.

No mention of the ERG or other Brexiteer Tory rebels being even slightly at fault for voting down deals in Parliament that would have got this through much earlier then?

 

No, it's ALL the fault of people who never wanted it in the first place. Let me guess, it'll all be their fault in perpetuity if it doesn't work out too? They didn't believe hard enough, did they?

 

It'd be lovely if the people who keep winning elections and referenda could actually start accepting responsibility for their will being enacted at some point - whether it succeeds or fails.

 

[Jon the Hat]

5 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

No mention of the ERG or other Brexiteer Tory rebels being even slightly at fault for voting down deals in Parliament that would have got this through much earlier then?

No, it's ALL the fault of people who never wanted it in the first place. Let me guess, it'll all be their fault in perpetuity if it doesn't work out too? They didn't believe hard enough, did they?

It'd be lovely if the people who keep winning elections and referenda could actually start accepting responsibility for their will being enacted at some point - whether it succeeds or fails.

Had we had a leadership in place which actually wanted Brexit instead of Theresa May we would certainly have got there quicker, but you aren't going to get me to agree that some shite compromise deal which would have locked us into EU control forever would have been better.  The backstop was insane.

 

[Alf Bentley]

56 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

The beginning of the end more like.

 

The beginning of the end of the introductory phase to the disaster, more like.  (Gotta laugh or else you'd cry)

 

On the N. Ireland news, whatever the pros and cons of the stance adopted (and I agree with those who think it was a reckless, bonkers, anti-democrat way to behave), I'm mainly just glad it reduces the chances of handing ammunition to the minority who'd like to restart violent conflict over there.

[Izzy]

1 hour ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

It's mental to think it's been nearly 4 and a half years since we all voted in regards to this, at least it finally feels like we're coming towards the end.

It’s mental that after four and a half years it all seems to boil down to one thing...

 

Fishing

 

[Spudulike]

41 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

No mention of the ERG or other Brexiteer Tory rebels being even slightly at fault for voting down deals in Parliament that would have got this through much earlier then?

 

No, it's ALL the fault of people who never wanted it in the first place. Let me guess, it'll all be their fault in perpetuity if it doesn't work out too? They didn't believe hard enough, did they?

 

It'd be lovely if the people who keep winning elections and referenda could actually start accepting responsibility for their will being enacted at some point - whether it succeeds or fails.

 

Perhaps not but perhaps it didn't help as they failed to grasp the democratic principle of loser consent. 

[bovril]

As for loser's consent, I'm not sure screaming "you lost get over it" and "if you don't like it, move to the EU" was the greatest bridge-building strategy ever. 

 

Edited 8 December 2020 by bovril

[bovril]

57 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

No mention of the ERG or other Brexiteer Tory rebels being even slightly at fault for voting down deals in Parliament that would have got this through much earlier then?

 

No, it's ALL the fault of people who never wanted it in the first place. Let me guess, it'll all be their fault in perpetuity if it doesn't work out too? They didn't believe hard enough, did they?

 

It'd be lovely if the people who keep winning elections and referenda could actually start accepting responsibility for their will being enacted at some point - whether it succeeds or fails.

 

I've always thought Brexiters were like communists. When it fails, it'll be:

- not real Brexit

- the fault of bourgeois fifth columnist remainers

- foreign powers wanting to punish us

- "just wait 50 years"

 

[Voll Blau]

51 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Had we had a leadership in place which actually wanted Brexit instead of Theresa May we would certainly have got there quicker, but you aren't going to get me to agree that some shite compromise deal which would have locked us into EU control forever would have been better.  The backstop was insane.

 

Oh right, so she's someone else who just didn't believe hard enough then. Assume you still voted for her party in 2017 though?

 

 

14 minutes ago, Spudulike said:

Perhaps not but perhaps it didn't help as they failed to grasp the democratic principle of loser consent. 

 

Accepting you've lost something doesn't just mean you gleefully cheer on whatever the winners decide to do next. It'd be a pretty scary thing if there were no dissent to any political vote in this country.

 

At the time of the result, I accepted it but wanted to see a future relationship with the EU, although outside if it, I could live with. As time has gone on that vision has slipped further and further away from reality. There's been no attempt to unite the country behind something most of us can support to some degree, just repeated bids to further alienate those who didn't think this was a very good idea in the first place on the grounds that they were on the "losing side".

[bovril]

I think the soft brexit / compromise argument is a bit far-fetched anyway. People voted for it because they wanted to stop E. Europeans coming to the UK, because they thought we "send too much money to Brussels" and they wanted more 'sovereignty'. The only thing that delivers those is hard brexit. 

The compromise was remaining in the EU.

[CosbehFox]

No scaremongering here, actual reality. British company owned by Britain’s richest man who happens to be a huge Brexit supporter but is registered as a Monaco resident. 
 

The construction was expected to occur in Wales, it’s not now. It’s going to be in Germany

Edited 8 December 2020 by Cardiff_Fox

[fuchsntf]

2 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

I know.  It is the direct result of the amount of time wasted dicking about with remainers who wouldn;t accept the result, and an EU who directly engaged with them to frustrate the result of the referendum.  I am delighted we are finally getting there for that reason alone.  A country should be free to join and leave unions as it sees fit, and the Eurocrats must learn to accept that.  As I have said many times before the EU is doomed anyway, but at this speed it might take another decade for the real collapse to start.

Look I am in the Middle & have no purchase on any Brexit decision issue...

But aint it just typical you brexiters having the Audacity Blaming the remainers for dicking about....Ffs its the Forefront of Brexiters who are screwing it up...!!!

 

Brexiters have been Buffooning their Way through These discussion...Not confident or competent enough to Pull Britain out like they promised.

Waiting weeks then months, Now years, where UK should of just broke Off und gone on their Merry Way as agreed

But no ,you twist it & shit around  for your Political agendas....This balls up is on the Brexiters shoulders,they had the power, the say ,and the vote..!!

 

There are many two-coats in the Brexiters camp, or they could of quickly used the opportunity to Pull UK from EU...trade-agreements were just

a smoke screen...FFS...you .Wanted out..!!! Why didnt you spend These 3 years wasted Money in discussion & debate,by just Cutting the so called

Wires of freedom....I will tell you why...The British politicians care fk all about the UK, only in getting their Judas purse on the back of the UK-electorate...

 

UK could of shown their EU-indepence by just pulling out,instead of playing "here we go around the Mulberry bush"

Boris drawn you into his web, and you lot fell for it ....

 

unfortunately there was/is no opposition-Party to bring the Government to book..

Great Top und Medium qualified Working talent have been like Medical & Service workers Left out to dry..60-40yrs of Brain Drain ,hasn t been a coincidence..!!

 

 

 

 

[FLAN]

As an average intelligence person I have literally no understanding of what benefits Brexit will bring. I voted against leaving as there was no compelling case to leave presented to me (unless you wanted to retain bent bananas and felt Farage was a working class hero). 
 

still after all this time I’m none the wiser and it just seems like there are ever more holes in the argument to leave. 
 

so In a few lines can anyone convince me what positivity this will bring?

[Dahnsouff]

10 hours ago, FLAN said:

As an average intelligence person I have literally no understanding of what benefits Brexit will bring. I voted against leaving as there was no compelling case to leave presented to me (unless you wanted to retain bent bananas and felt Farage was a working class hero). 
 

still after all this time I’m none the wiser and it just seems like there are ever more holes in the argument to leave. 
 

so In a few lines can anyone convince me what positivity this will bring?

No

I

Cannot

[Jon the Hat]

11 hours ago, FLAN said:

As an average intelligence person I have literally no understanding of what benefits Brexit will bring. I voted against leaving as there was no compelling case to leave presented to me (unless you wanted to retain bent bananas and felt Farage was a working class hero). 
 

still after all this time I’m none the wiser and it just seems like there are ever more holes in the argument to leave. 
 

so In a few lines can anyone convince me what positivity this will bring?

It separates us from a political project which is driving towards ever closer union against the will of the majority of it's citizens, which will power over taxes, the judiciary and probably an EU army.  This will lead to a lot of other nations leaving, and ultimately the real core of France & Germany with a few others who are largely irrelevant.

We can carefully manage the talent that comes into the country rather than allowing unlimited young guys from Eastern Europe who are willing to share a house to undercut people who used to be able to raise a family on their wage. (just one example obviously)

It also allows us to look to the wider world and especially the commonwealth which we ****ed over when we joined the EU.

We can make trade deals based on our needs, not in balance with the those of 27 other countries

We can still trade with the EU regardless of a deal or not, as we do with China and the US without any trade deal.

We can still be friends with the EU once all this negotiating is out of the way.

We are a great country and will continue to be.

Ta da.

[WigstonWanderer]

7 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

It separates us from a political project which is driving towards ever closer union against the will of the majority of it's citizens, which will power over taxes, the judiciary and probably an EU army.  This will lead to a lot of other nations leaving, and ultimately the real core of France & Germany with a few others who are largely irrelevant.

We can carefully manage the talent that comes into the country rather than allowing unlimited young guys from Eastern Europe who are willing to share a house to undercut people who used to be able to raise a family on their wage. (just one example obviously)

It also allows us to look to the wider world and especially the commonwealth which we ****ed over when we joined the EU.

We can make trade deals based on our needs, not in balance with the those of 27 other countries

We can still trade with the EU regardless of a deal or not, as we do with China and the US without any trade deal.

We can still be friends with the EU once all this negotiating is out of the way.

We are a great country and will continue to be.

Ta da.

Good try Jon 

 

Silk purse from a sow’s ear comes to mind.

[dsr-burnley]

11 hours ago, FLAN said:

As an average intelligence person I have literally no understanding of what benefits Brexit will bring. I voted against leaving as there was no compelling case to leave presented to me (unless you wanted to retain bent bananas and felt Farage was a working class hero). 
 

still after all this time I’m none the wiser and it just seems like there are ever more holes in the argument to leave. 
 

so In a few lines can anyone convince me what positivity this will bring?

To make the UK an independent nation and not part of the dubious EU superstate.

 

It's not about money.  That's something that pro-EU people have, by and large, failed to grasp.  They see the Brexit campaign (and presumably the SNP campaign as well) as purely based on what financial benefit it brings, or does not bring.  National identity and independence is a much bigger subject that that.  Just ask the Czechs, the Slovaks, the Serbs, the Croats, the Bosnians, the Montenegrans, the Kosovans, the Estonians, the Latvians, the Lithuanians, the Kurds, the Chechnyans, the Ukrainians, etc etc etc - national identity still means something to people.  Perhaps it shouldn't.  Perhaps a "grand idea" superstate where democracy is subordinate to finance is the way forward.  I hope not.

[Dahnsouff]

3 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

To make the UK an independent nation and not part of the dubious EU superstate.

 

It's not about money.  That's something that pro-EU people have, by and large, failed to grasp.  They see the Brexit campaign (and presumably the SNP campaign as well) as purely based on what financial benefit it brings, or does not bring.  National identity and independence is a much bigger subject that that.  Just ask the Czechs, the Slovaks, the Serbs, the Croats, the Bosnians, the Montenegrans, the Kosovans, the Estonians, the Latvians, the Lithuanians, the Kurds, the Chechnyans, the Ukrainians, etc etc etc - national identity still means something to people.  Perhaps it shouldn't.  Perhaps a "grand idea" superstate where democracy is subordinate to finance is the way forward.  I hope not.

I do not even know what that means, and I would suggest it varies based on the reader! That for me, is the crux of my major dismay at how Brexit has been sold to the public

[surrifox]

16 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

No scaremongering here, actual reality. British company owned by Britain’s richest man who happens to be a huge Brexit supporter but is registered as a Monaco resident. 
 

The construction was expected to occur in Wales, it’s not now. It’s going to be in Germany

Looks like it has been built on a level playing field 

[FLAN]

Thanks for the replies. Based on what I am seeing in the media the financial implications all seem to be nagatobe so far and being able to stand proud as British probably does t outweigh that for a lot of people. Behind the scenes there must be a financial drive behind the likes of ERG pushing this agenda 

[dsr-burnley]

5 minutes ago, FLAN said:

Thanks for the replies. Based on what I am seeing in the media the financial implications all seem to be nagatobe so far and being able to stand proud as British probably does t outweigh that for a lot of people. Behind the scenes there must be a financial drive behind the likes of ERG pushing this agenda 

Brexit supporters are still not convinced that being outside the EU means penury.  It's not that we think Brexit means great wealth will be ours, more that we think it won't make a lot of difference.

Edited 9 December 2020 by dsr-burnley

[bovril]

8 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

To make the UK an independent nation and not part of the dubious EU superstate.

 

It's not about money.  That's something that pro-EU people have, by and large, failed to grasp.  They see the Brexit campaign (and presumably the SNP campaign as well) as purely based on what financial benefit it brings, or does not bring.  National identity and independence is a much bigger subject that that.  Just ask the Czechs, the Slovaks, the Serbs, the Croats, the Bosnians, the Montenegrans, the Kosovans, the Estonians, the Latvians, the Lithuanians, the Kurds, the Chechnyans, the Ukrainians, etc etc etc - national identity still means something to people.  Perhaps it shouldn't.  Perhaps a "grand idea" superstate where democracy is subordinate to finance is the way forward.  I hope not.

People understand that, they just don't agree with it.

 

I fail to see how membership of the EU has eroded identity. I have seen how the EU have funded the restoration and promotion of cultural sites and traditions in Europe, something that local politicians won't do because they see no benefit. I don't think the French, for example, have a problem at the moment with promoting their ideals and values, which they see as intertwined with European values in general. 

 

If anything the erosion of national identity in the UK has come because of American cultural dominance, which was one of the reasons I was so keen to stay in the EU. I'd rather throw my lot in with the Europeans when I look at the kind of "forget your past" wokeness that's coming out of the US right now. British values and traditions were very popular in Europe, I saw that myself when I lived there. We were massively respected, not just our politics but our literature, music, art. That's still true to a certain extent, but not as much. The English are not as comfortable with their national identity as they were 5 years ago.

 

Also, there is a pan-European identity which a lot of people will feel a loss of. Young people will see Europeans (including Scots, maybe) working together, promoting each other's countries, trading easily, and want to be part of that. Isolation doesn't mean promoting your national identity. And isolation is the direction we're moving in.

 

Finally, it is about money. And I simply don't believe people voted to make themselves poorer. An ever diminishing number of people want to go through with Brexit. If there are significant negative effects on the economy and people find it harder to travel round Europe, I think that number will diminish further. People won't enjoy sovreignty as much as they thought they would.

[Dahnsouff]

@bovril Nicely said 

[Footballwipe]

16 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

No scaremongering here, actual reality. British company owned by Britain’s richest man who happens to be a huge Brexit supporter but is registered as a Monaco resident. 
 

The construction was expected to occur in Wales, it’s not now. It’s going to be in Germany

Interesting that the hardcore Brexit dwellers on this forum, and this thread, don't seem to have commented on this? Usually they're piling in to (sometimes rightly) highlight that it's not as bad as it seems, or embellished bad news.

 

I desperately hope it's not a sign of things to come. I don't want to live in a country wish is so negatively impacted by what I think is a ridiculous choice. If this is going to happen I want us to benefit. And yet... and yet, I can't see it, and things like this don't make me any more confident.