Also in the news

[tom27111]

20 minutes ago, bovril said:

Fair enough I haven't, I imagine it's not pleasant. Do you feel physically in danger though? Because I think for a woman - at least women I know - if they get cat calls from random drunk guys it's not the verbal they're worried about. Someone can come up with some stats I am sure, but generally drunk women don't sexually assault men. 

 

Sometimes, yes. 

 

Once again, I'm not defending blokes saying these things, but it is absolutely not harassment. 

 

I've seen women on social media saying if something like this is said to them that they "are shaking with rage".

 

Someone has been brutally murdered and a family has lost a daughter in dreadful circumstances, and people are saying cat calls are sexual harassment?

 

Get a grip.

[nnfox]

47 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Hasn't he also been charged with getting his frank and beans out in a fast food gaff last month too? Begs the question has he always been a weirdo and somehow managed to have a career in the police or he's gone off his rocker after hiding a very disturbing and twisted personality. Very perturbing stuff.

I think it's "just" the kidnap and murder.  Can't see them going after him for indecent exposure as well. 

[Ric Flair]

5 minutes ago, nnfox said:

I think it's "just" the kidnap and murder.  Can't see them going after him for indecent exposure as well. 

Isn't the indecent exposure bringing their actions as a police force under scrutiny as he was allowed to continue working and wasn't suspended. 

[nnfox]

Just now, Ric Flair said:

Isn't the indecent exposure bringing their actions as a police force under scrutiny as he was allowed to continue working and wasn't suspended. 

Yes, it certainly does but the police's handling of that investigation will be investigated separately.  If that incident was material to the murder investigation then he may well be charged with it, but if they have strong evidence without it then I'd argue that it isn't in the public interest to pursue it given the bigger case being taken forward.

[MiDuck55]

2 hours ago, tom27111 said:

Apparently, 2 girls from London have set up this page, calling out the 'cat-calls' that they've heard.

 

No wonder the figures are quoting 97%

 

I used to manage pubs and bars for over 10 years, god knows how offended they'd get by a bunch of pissed up 40-year-old women on a Hen night.

 This 'cat call' was made in the street by a man  to a 15 year old girl who was alone.

Does knowing that change your opinion of it?

I'm sure most of us who are parents would not want that to happen to our daughter.

Just saying.

[tom27111]

4 minutes ago, MiDuck55 said:

 This 'cat call' was made in the street by a man  to a 15 year old girl who was alone.

Does knowing that change your opinion of it?

I'm sure most of us who are parents would not want that to happen to our daughter.

Just saying.

Not particularly. 

 

Whilst I wasn't aware of the situation, I firmly stand by the opinion that it isn't sexual harassment. 

 

Again, to reiterate, I'm not defending it in the slightest. 

 

The reason we are talking about this is because someone has committed a heinous, despicable crime and murdered a young, innocent woman. 

 

It's not really comparable is it? 

[leicsmac]

5 hours ago, FoxesDeb said:

It's quite telling really that I've had to bite my tongue so many times when thinking about what to say when replying here. Most of the posters here are great, and accepting of me as a woman I think, but I have to say that some of the misogynistic comments earlier in this thread did surprise me even after all the time I've been posting here.

 

White privilege is a well known thing, or so my friends tell me. They tell me I can't see it because I am white, I'm not aware of it because it doesn't affect me, and you only see it if you are not white. I wonder if it's a similar thing to being a man. Men are privileged because of their gender, they don't face the same discrimination that women do, but they can't see it because they're not a woman. 

 

Being told that women make themselves the victims was a new low though, even for here.  Especially given the reason the whole discussion started. 

 

 

 

 

Bringing this to the front again, as it should be required reading on this topic IMO.

 

Thank you, Deb.

 

25 minutes ago, tom27111 said:

Not particularly. 

 

Whilst I wasn't aware of the situation, I firmly stand by the opinion that it isn't sexual harassment. 

 

Again, to reiterate, I'm not defending it in the slightest. 

 

The reason we are talking about this is because someone has committed a heinous, despicable crime and murdered a young, innocent woman. 

 

It's not really comparable is it? 

It really isn't comparable, no.

 

However, those heinous and despicable crimes don't occur in a vacuum - social attitudes towards women have at least a bit of a part to play generating an atmosphere in which such things might occur. And that includes what may or may not be listed as garden variety harassment IMO.

[leicsmac]

4 hours ago, Izzy said:

Also in the news.....it's 25 years ago tomorrow since the Dunblane killings.

 

Just watched a wonderfully moving documentary on ITV with Lorraine Kelly who visits the families who campaigned to get the gun laws changed.

 

Such a shocking tragedy and still hard to believe that 16 kids aged five and six plus their teacher were murdered that day.

 

 

I remember watching one of the few times Andy Murray talked about what happened there in that interview with Sue Barker. I'm actually amazed it doesn't weigh upon him more.

 

Like you say, hard to believe all round, really.

[MiDuck55]

7 minutes ago, tom27111 said:

Not particularly. 

 

Whilst I wasn't aware of the situation, I firmly stand by the opinion that it isn't sexual harassment. 

 

Again, to reiterate, I'm not defending it in the slightest. 

 

The reason we are talking about this is because someone has committed a heinous, despicable crime and murdered a young, innocent woman. 

 

It's not really comparable is it? 

I was actually responding to your other comment as follows 

 

Once again, I'm not defending blokes saying these things, but it is absolutely not harassment. 

 

I wondered if knowing the circumstances and the reasoning behind the use of this quote on the pavement you may have reconsidered your opinion, as I feel it was harrassment.   You clearly don't and you are entitled to your opinion. We will have to disagree on that point.

 

I was giving the context so that other readers of this post would be aware of the full facts.

 

I completely agree with you that the awful crime committed against Sarah Everard appears to be being used by some people to further their personal agendas, such as the rediculous call for a curfew on men, made by a previously unknown politician.  But is has opened a  'can of worms'  and an outpouring of

long held anguish by many women.  Some of it may be considered over the top but a lot of it is genuine and heartfelt, and there have been precious few ocasions when women have felt able to voice these concerns before.

This is not an attack on men, per se, but only shining a light on what a tiny minority of men are capable of and what the majority, and I believe it is a majority,  of women have endured for years.

Thank you for listening.

 

 

 

 

[tom27111]

5 minutes ago, MiDuck55 said:

I was actually responding to your other comment as follows 

 

Once again, I'm not defending blokes saying these things, but it is absolutely not harassment. 

 

I wondered if knowing the circumstances and the reasoning behind the use of this quote on the pavement you may have reconsidered your opinion, as I feel it was harrassment.   You clearly don't and you are entitled to your opinion. We will have to disagree on that point.

 

I was giving the context so that other readers of this post would be aware of the full facts.

 

I completely agree with you that the awful crime committed against Sarah Everard appears to be being used by some people to further their personal agendas, such as the rediculous call for a curfew on men, made by a previously unknown politician.  But is has opened a  'can of worms'  and an outpouring of

long held anguish by many women.  Some of it may be considered over the top but a lot of it is genuine and heartfelt, and there have been precious few ocasions when women have felt able to voice these concerns before.

This is not an attack on men, per se, but only shining a light on what a tiny minority of men are capable of and what the majority, and I believe it is a majority,  of women have endured for years.

Thank you for listening.

 

 

 

 

Very well put 

 

I'm by no means looking for an argument, merely having a discussion on some of the points that have been raised in the last few days.

 

It's a real problem that women feel threatened, of course it is. I have a mother, a partner and 2 step-daughters.

 

99% of men should not be vilified and as I pointed out earlier, in certain circumstances, women can be as bad, if not worse, in my experience, for 'cat calling.

[Scotch]

4 hours ago, Izzy said:

Also in the news.....it's 25 years ago tomorrow since the Dunblane killings.

 

Just watched a wonderfully moving documentary on ITV with Lorraine Kelly who visits the families who campaigned to get the gun laws changed.

 

Such a shocking tragedy and still hard to believe that 16 kids aged five and six plus their teacher were murdered that day.

 

 

I just watched it. One of the hardest things I've ever watched. It was very moving and one of the things I thought was mos poignant was that they didn't mention his name once. 

 

I remember it well. Being a primary school pupil in Scotland at the time. As a parent now, it's hard to put into words the thanks and praise that those who campaigned for gun laws deserve. 

We know that we send our kids to school and they are relatively safe and its because of these absolute heroes. 

 

 

[leicsmac]

20 minutes ago, tom27111 said:

Very well put 

 

I'm by no means looking for an argument, merely having a discussion on some of the points that have been raised in the last few days.

 

It's a real problem that women feel threatened, of course it is. I have a mother, a partner and 2 step-daughters.

 

99% of men should not be vilified and as I pointed out earlier, in certain circumstances, women can be as bad, if not worse, in my experience, for 'cat calling.

I can understand not throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but is the inference here really that 99% of blokes aren't responsible for contributing to an atmosphere in which such dreadful events can occur? Because I don't think that number is entirely accurate.

 

Of course it's a very small minority that actually carry out these attacks, but as per above they don't occur in a vacuum.

[ozleicester]

90% or murderers are men

90%+ of rapists are men.

There is your problem

[nnfox]

3 hours ago, ozleicester said:

90% or murderers are men

90%+ of rapists are men.

There is your problem

100% of rapists are men.

[Aus Fox]

58 minutes ago, nnfox said:

100% of rapists are men.

What a ridiculous and uneducated comment, whilst I’m not sure of the exact statistics, and men will as Oz pointed out be the overwhelming majority of perpetrators of rape, their are many examples of female rapists.

[Dahnsouff]

4 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I can understand not throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but is the inference here really that 99% of blokes aren't responsible for contributing to an atmosphere in which such dreadful events can occur? Because I don't think that number is entirely accurate.

 

Of course it's a very small minority that actually carry out these attacks, but as per above they don't occur in a vacuum.

That is an interesting and concerning observation, now forgive me if I got the wrong end of the stick, but you seem to be suggesting it is maleness or perhaps masculinity that is proliferating/allowing these derogatory attitudes to women?

[nnfox]

5 minutes ago, Aus Fox said:

What a ridiculous and uneducated comment, whilst I’m not sure of the exact statistics, and men will as Oz pointed out be the overwhelming majority of perpetrators of rape, their are many examples of female rapists.

Except, by definition, the act of rape requires the use of a penis.  So unless you are talking about people with a penis who identify as a woman(?) it isn't a ridiculous and uneducated comment.  Rape is an offence exclusively perpetrated by men*

 

Maybe you need to make the distinction between rape and other sexual offences?  Can women be perpetrators of other sexual offences?  Of course they can, but let's not blur the distinction between the most serious of sexual offences (rape) and all the other sexual offences that are out there.

 

*I think there was one female convicted of aiding and abetting rape, but the actual act itself can only be performed by a man.

[WigstonWanderer]

18 minutes ago, Aus Fox said:

What a ridiculous and uneducated comment, whilst I’m not sure of the exact statistics, and men will as Oz pointed out be the overwhelming majority of perpetrators of rape, their are many examples of female rapists.

How does that work?

[Aus Fox]

8 minutes ago, nnfox said:

Except, by definition, the act of rape requires the use of a penis.  So unless you are talking about people with a penis who identify as a woman(?) it isn't a ridiculous and uneducated comment.  Rape is an offence exclusively perpetrated by men*

 

Maybe you need to make the distinction between rape and other sexual offences?  Can women be perpetrators of other sexual offences?  Of course they can, but let's not blur the distinction between the most serious of sexual offences (rape) and all the other sexual offences that are out there.

 

*I think there was one female convicted of aiding and abetting rape, but the actual act itself can only be performed by a man.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/9781825/teacher-kendall-burk-sex-student-rape-charge/amp/

 

Just one example of rape by a female.

Edited 13 March 2021 by Aus Fox

[leicsmac]

23 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

That is an interesting and concerning observation, now forgive me if I got the wrong end of the stick, but you seem to be suggesting it is maleness or perhaps masculinity that is proliferating/allowing these derogatory attitudes to women?

This is perhaps an overused term, but toxic masculinity is responsible for the proliferation of those attitudes, yes. And to clarify, my point was that it is not just the ones committing heinous acts that allow them to proliferate; such toxicity manifests itself in different ways and allows an atmosphere where these events are more likely to occur. As the act is very much about power and dominance, I'm willing to bet that rapists don't just start with rape; they will have sought to degrade and be derogatory towards women in other ways first, in the same way that great tragedies towards demographics in history never start with suffering and death, but with viewing them as "lesser". And I believe that such attitudes are more widespread - though often concealed behind a veneer - than the post I was replying to believes.

 

And be aware there is a distinction that exists and that I am making between that toxic masculinity and other kinds of masculinity that are much more beneficial than harmful.

Edited 13 March 2021 by leicsmac

[nnfox]

2 minutes ago, Aus Fox said:

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/9781825/teacher-kendall-burk-sex-student-rape-charge/amp/

I'm sure you can scour the internet and find examples of varied definitions in other parts of the world, but in the UK, to be a rapist, you have to be a man.

[Aus Fox]

Just now, nnfox said:

I'm sure you can scour the internet and find examples of varied definitions in other parts of the world, but in the UK, to be a rapist, you have to be a man.

Seriously? Well in that case the law in the UK is shite.

If for example a male was to pass out at a party, and wake up with his underwear removed and a lady having her way with him - this wouldn’t be classed as rape?

What about if it female on female? 
teacher or other person who holds power over a person forcing them to perform sexual acts?

There are many cases when a female can do this.

[ozleicester]

Semantics... and a distraction from the issue

[nnfox]

Just now, Aus Fox said:

Seriously? Well in that case the law in the UK is shite.

If for example a male was to pass out at a party, and wake up with his underwear removed and a lady having her way with him - this wouldn’t be classed as rape?

What about if it female on female? 
teacher or other person who holds power over a person forcing them to perform sexual acts?

There are many cases when a female can do this.

There are lots of different offences that cater for all types of incident.

 

A female forcing themselves on a male?  Sexual assault.  Female on female?  Sexual assault.  If some kind of implement - sex toy or otherwise were used, then it would be Sexual Assault by Penetration.

Forcing somebody else to perform sexual acts?  If there is physical contact between the two people, it's sexual assault, if there's no physical contact, it's 'causing a person to engage in sexual activity without consent'

There are a host of offences involving children and also specific offences relating to 'abuse of position of trust' - teachers, police, scout leaders and so on.

 

Women are eligible to be found guilty of all sexual offences, except the actual act of rape.  The case I cited earlier of a female being found guilty of aiding and abetting rape was a number of years ago where a girl who was part of a gang, held down another girln (the victim) whilst the victim was gang raped.

[Buce]

9 hours ago, tom27111 said:

Not particularly. 

 

Whilst I wasn't aware of the situation, I firmly stand by the opinion that it isn't sexual harassment. 

 

You're not a woman; it's not for you to decide whether they feel harrassed or not by such behaviour.

 

Quote

 

Again, to reiterate, I'm not defending it in the slightest. 

 

The reason we are talking about this is because someone has committed a heinous, despicable crime and murdered a young, innocent woman. 

 

It's not really comparable is it? 

 

Very few murderers or rapists are first time offenders; they typically begin their criminal activty at a lower level, such as animal abuse (in the case of murderers) or stealing women's underwear from washing lines etc (in the case of rapists). If we prevent the normalisation of such behaviour as low-level harrassment by cat-calling etc, just possibly we will prevent escalation to more serious offences.

 

3 hours ago, nnfox said:

Except, by definition, the act of rape requires the use of a penis.  So unless you are talking about people with a penis who identify as a woman(?) it isn't a ridiculous and uneducated comment.  Rape is an offence exclusively perpetrated by men*

 

Maybe you need to make the distinction between rape and other sexual offences?  Can women be perpetrators of other sexual offences?  Of course they can, but let's not blur the distinction between the most serious of sexual offences (rape) and all the other sexual offences that are out there.

 

*I think there was one female convicted of aiding and abetting rape, but the actual act itself can only be performed by a man.

 

3 hours ago, WigstonWanderer said:

How does that work?

 

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/these-men-say-women-raped-them-but-the-law-doesnt-agree_uk_5d396ed7e4b0419fd338515d

Edited 13 March 2021 by Buce