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[Babylon]

1 hour ago, Nod.E said:

You can call it victim blaming, and it's a popular buzzword at the moment, so it'll land.

 

Part of the problem is the role women assign themselves as the victim.

 

If every man reacted to every perverse action of women for years and years, perhaps more women who are inclined to 'prey' would feel empowered to act on their impulses, too.

 

Obviously the main issue is that yes, these occurrences are more commonly administered male to female. I'm just saying the reaction doesn't help. It's self perpetuating. If that's victim blaming, well, guilty.

I'm flattered when a woman pinches my arse, if it happened every week, or I got pestered constantly I think we'd probably take a different view of it. It's tip of the iceberg stuff isn't it, the act alone every now and again would probably get the same reaction it does from blokes. It's the constant barrage of it, "sliding into DM's", dick picks, wolf whistles, unwanted attention at work, on public transport and so on. 

 

After a while you're just going to want everyone to F off and leave you alone. 

 

 

[String fellow]

2 hours ago, MiDuck55 said:

Thing is it isn't just walking alone at night.  Most women would think twice about that, or never dare do it.

Last September, about 5pm in Sainsburys car park on Melton Road, it was quite busy and I was pushing my trolley to my car.  Walked past a white van parked with two men sitting in it.

As I passed they started banging on the windscreen and shouted obscene remarks inviting me to join them in the back of their van for a 'good seeing to'.

I was so shocked I threw the shopping into my car as quick as I could and drove off,  hands shaking, part through fear and part anger.

No doubt they would say they were just having a laugh, its only 'banter' right?

No. Ifs not. Its what wonem and girls have to put up with all the time.

Its why a woman seeing a couple of men walking down the street towards her will probably cross the road.  Its why a woman alone in a lift who sees a lone man get in will keep her head down, don't make eye contact cos that might give the wrong signal. Its why a woman going to her car in a deserted multi story and sees a man out of the corner of her eye will grasp her car keys as a potential weapon and instantly calculate if she can get to her car before he can get to her.

Of course the vast majority of men are the good guys. We know that. But we don't know which ones are the bad guys so we are wary of all.

Please , if anything good is to come out of this truely awful case, have a little understanding of what women have to put up with, and next time you are out on the lash and one of your mates is cat calling or worse, tell him to stop. Cos its never you, right?

 

I was sorry to read about your experience. On the question of eye contact, some of us chaps are so shy that we ourselves avoid eye contact with women we encounter, for fear that that might invade their privacy. Such shyness makes finding a female partner virtually impossible, especially for those of us who expect immediate rejection anyway.

[LiberalFox]

26 minutes ago, Babylon said:

I'm flattered when a woman pinches my arse, if it happened every week, or I got pestered constantly I think we'd probably take a different view of it. It's tip of the iceberg stuff isn't it, the act alone every now and again would probably get the same reaction it does from blokes. It's the constant barrage of it, "sliding into DM's", dick picks, wolf whistles, unwanted attention at work, on public transport and so on. 

 

After a while you're just going to want everyone to F off and leave you alone. 

 

 

Yeah agree. In my experience women only do that sort of thing in a pub/club or similar and as a man you're not worrying even if you may or may not find it annoying. Women are getting the unwanted attention at random and never know how to react either because if you reject someone then some take that as a provocation and then if you laugh it off some take that as an invitation. Think men who are trying to understand have to get out of the "we're aiming for equality" mindset because men and women are different and always will be. Best thing people can do is listen and not take things personally. Likewise just because a fringe political figure says something controversial doesn't mean it's a mainstream view or ever going to happen. 

[yorkie1999]

54 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

That and the fact he tried to off himself yesterday is pretty much an admission of guilt.

 

I genuinely suspect Sarah Everard wont be the only one - especially given the extent of the searches they are doing. The guy has had access to a tunnel network under the Dover Cliffs which strecthes for miles. Currently being searched.

What? they think he may have hidden bodies down there?

[SecretPro]

6 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

What? they think he may have hidden bodies down there?

I don't see why they would still be engaging in multiple massive search opperations in various areas of the south-east if they weren't looking for 'other things' given they have already recovered human remains from the woods. There has been a large number of young women come forward about sexual assaults in that area of London since this came out, all happening since Christmas. I wouldn't be surprised if he's done more than just this one random murder. He's already up for an unrelated exposure. Has the hallmarks to me of something more sinister. Could be the reason he joined the Police in the first place.

Edited 12 March 2021 by SecretPro

[Jimothy]

Remains confirmed as Sarah Everard

 

BBC News - Sarah Everard: Human remains confirmed as those of missing woman https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56371163

[SecretPro]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56371163

[urban.spaceman]

Davina's not made herself popular...

 

 

 

[SecretPro]

Just now, urban.spaceman said:

Davina's not made herself popular...

 

 

 

I don't know why celebs even bother. Why do they all feel the need to scramble to make weird statements like anybody give's a shit what they think anyway?

[Wymsey]

It appears that the Policeman arrested over Ms. Everard's murder tried to possibly take his own life whilst alone in the cells.

[Jimothy]

7 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

It appears that the Policeman arrested over Ms. Everard's murder tried to possibly take his own life whilst alone in the cells.

I didn't think the police had injured him, this is too high profile for them to be ****ing up like that. Trying to top himself, might as well admit his guilt now.

[Corky]

I may have got this wrong but the original police advice about not going out alone was based on the possibility the perpetrator could still have been at large, wasn't it? Or is my timing out and they'd arrested the suspect beforehand?

 

Isn't it just common practice that when an incident like this happens, you heighten security i.e. go out in public with acquaintances and remain vigilant. Isn't this advice what sparked the whole debate? 

 

[FoxesDeb]

So much tragic irony here, men agreeing that all of us should be able to feel safe and not subjected to unwanted attention, yet laughing and joking about where they can go to subject themselves willingly to the very same. 

[MiDuck55]

9 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

So much tragic irony here, men agreeing that all of us should be able to feel safe and not subjected to unwanted attention, yet laughing and joking about where they can go to subject themselves willingly to the very same. 

I've been very aware of the lack of posts from other female users of FT.  Years of not being able to talk about this, let alone be listened to,  takes its toll. 

 

[FoxesDeb]

19 minutes ago, MiDuck55 said:

I've been very aware of the lack of posts from other female users of FT.  Years of not being able to talk about this, let alone be listened to,  takes its toll. 

 

It's quite telling really that I've had to bite my tongue so many times when thinking about what to say when replying here. Most of the posters here are great, and accepting of me as a woman I think, but I have to say that some of the misogynistic comments earlier in this thread did surprise me even after all the time I've been posting here.

 

White privilege is a well known thing, or so my friends tell me. They tell me I can't see it because I am white, I'm not aware of it because it doesn't affect me, and you only see it if you are not white. I wonder if it's a similar thing to being a man. Men are privileged because of their gender, they don't face the same discrimination that women do, but they can't see it because they're not a woman. 

 

Being told that women make themselves the victims was a new low though, even for here.  Especially given the reason the whole discussion started. 

 

 

 

 

[Buce]

1 hour ago, FoxesDeb said:

So much tragic irony here, men agreeing that all of us should be able to feel safe and not subjected to unwanted attention, yet laughing and joking about where they can go to subject themselves willingly to the very same. 

 

Yep.

 

Astonishingly crass.

[Parafox]

14 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

They tell me I can't see it because I am white, I'm not aware of it because it doesn't affect me, and you only see it if you are not white.

Just as a matter of interest, how have you been accepted/treated/viewed as a Brit ex-pat by the indigenous population? 

[Dahnsouff]

11 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

It's quite telling really that I've had to bite my tongue so many times when thinking about what to say when replying here. Most of the posters here are great, and accepting of me as a woman I think, but I have to say that some of the misogynistic comments earlier in this thread did surprise me even after all the time I've been posting here.

 

White privilege is a well known thing, or so my friends tell me. They tell me I can't see it because I am white, I'm not aware of it because it doesn't affect me, and you only see it if you are not white. I wonder if it's a similar thing to being a man. Men are privileged because of their gender, they don't face the same discrimination that women do, but they can't see it because they're not a woman. 

 

Being told that women make themselves the victims was a new low though, even for here.  Especially given the reason the whole discussion started. 

 

Of course it’s true. We are in the process of leaving (hopefully) a misogynistic society, in the same way I mistakenly thought we were in the process of leaving a racist society.

It is quite sad, and only empathy and education will get us back on course, and we should always be willing, no matter who we are, to accept that current thinking is in error, whilst at the same time shying away from the current trend of binary thinking.

[Parafox]

1 hour ago, FoxesDeb said:

So much tragic irony here, men agreeing that all of us should be able to feel safe and not subjected to unwanted attention, yet laughing and joking about where they can go to subject themselves willingly to the very same. 

Agreed, especially when you think about the potentially misogynistic topic: "Birds You Fancy Off The Telly". Is that a topic that should be acceptable?

I guess any contributors to a football forum will be largely male for a number of reasons. But when a forum has a number of different topics being discussed, which enriches the forum and invites discussion on multiple levels, there needs to be a degree of understanding from posters of what they post before the mods get involved. A seemingly innocuous topic such as the one I mentioned earlier can be unpleasant for member such as FoxesDeb and MiDuck. I'd like to think FT members would consider them before posting something potentially uncomfortable for them to read. 

[FoxesDeb]

3 minutes ago, Parafox said:

Just as a matter of interest, how have you been accepted/treated/viewed as a Brit ex-pat by the indigenous population? 

The Spanish are unbelievably friendly, at least that is our experience so far where we live now. Many of the Spaniards we have met speak very little English, but we get by with lots of hand gestures (remember whoever the comedian was with the 'international sign language?), laughing when we don't really understand (both us and the Spanish), and if all else fails Google translate. It's definitely very humbling to have moved to a foreign country where the people go out of their way to speak your language though.

 

We're trying to learn Spanish, but even with very little of the language we have been welcomed, and everyone seems a lot more friendly than they did in the UK. Maybe the weather helps with the whole cheerfulness thing? It's easy to be happy when the temperature doesn't drop below 20 degrees I suppose

 

The British expats themselves though, they are like another breed. It's like all the Daily Mail readers moved here en masse in the 80's 

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

The Spanish are unbelievably friendly, at least that is our experience so far where we live now. Many of the Spaniards we have met speak very little English, but we get by with lots of hand gestures (remember whoever the comedian was with the 'international sign language?), laughing when we don't really understand (both us and the Spanish), and if all else fails Google translate. It's definitely very humbling to have moved to a foreign country where the people go out of their way to speak your language though.

 

We're trying to learn Spanish, but even with very little of the language we have been welcomed, and everyone seems a lot more friendly than they did in the UK. Maybe the weather helps with the whole cheerfulness thing? It's easy to be happy when the temperature doesn't drop below 20 degrees I suppose

 

The British expats themselves though, they are like another breed. It's like all the Daily Mail readers moved here en masse in the 80's 

 

I've spent loads of time hiking in Andalucia, Deb, and my experience has been exactly as you describe it. Great place, lovely people.

 

Whereabouts have you moved to?

[yorkie1999]

2 hours ago, Corky said:

I may have got this wrong but the original police advice about not going out alone was based on the possibility the perpetrator could still have been at large, wasn't it? Or is my timing out and they'd arrested the suspect beforehand?

 

Isn't it just common practice that when an incident like this happens, you heighten security i.e. go out in public with acquaintances and remain vigilant. Isn't this advice what sparked the whole debate? 

 

No, they issued a statement to say there would be a police presence in the area and to avoid going out the day after the man was arrested, I thought odd as it was after, but I suppose it was because they wouldn’t have been certain that the arrested man was the killer 

[yorkie1999]

6 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

The Spanish are unbelievably friendly, at least that is our experience so far where we live now. Many of the Spaniards we have met speak very little English, but we get by with lots of hand gestures (remember whoever the comedian was with the 'international sign language?), laughing when we don't really understand (both us and the Spanish), and if all else fails Google translate. It's definitely very humbling to have moved to a foreign country where the people go out of their way to speak your language though.

 

We're trying to learn Spanish, but even with very little of the language we have been welcomed, and everyone seems a lot more friendly than they did in the UK. Maybe the weather helps with the whole cheerfulness thing? It's easy to be happy when the temperature doesn't drop below 20 degrees I suppose

 

The British expats themselves though, they are like another breed. It's like all the Daily Mail readers moved here en masse in the 80's 

Ask them why they still feel it necessary to kill bulls for an audience 

[Parafox]

1 minute ago, FoxesDeb said:

The Spanish are unbelievably friendly, at least that is our experience so far where we live now. Many of the Spaniards we have met speak very little English, but we get by with lots of hand gestures (remember whoever the comedian was with the 'international sign language?), laughing when we don't really understand (both us and the Spanish), and if all else fails Google translate. It's definitely very humbling to have moved to a foreign country where the people go out of their way to speak your language though.

 

We're trying to learn Spanish, but even with very little of the language we have been welcomed, and everyone seems a lot more friendly than they did in the UK. Maybe the weather helps with the whole cheerfulness thing? It's easy to be happy when the temperature doesn't drop below 20 degrees I suppose

 

The British expats themselves though, they are like another breed. It's like all the Daily Mail readers moved here en masse in the 80's 

Good luck to you and well done for taking the plunge. Must have taken a degree of courage to make the move. I would like to think that we as Brits would be equally as welcoming and I think, generally we are. It's a shame that some aren't and that's what we get judged by. 

Daily Mail readers...  Do they have over-tanned wrinkly faces like Madge in Benidorm? 

 

[urban.spaceman]

12 minutes ago, Parafox said:

Agreed, especially when you think about the potentially misogynistic topic: "Birds You Fancy Off The Telly". Is that a topic that should be acceptable?

I guess any contributors to a football forum will be largely male for a number of reasons. But when a forum has a number of different topics being discussed, which enriches the forum and invites discussion on multiple levels, there needs to be a degree of understanding from posters of what they post before the mods get involved. A seemingly innocuous topic such as the one I mentioned earlier can be unpleasant for member such as FoxesDeb and MiDuck. I'd like to think FT members would consider them before posting something potentially uncomfortable for them to read. 

Yep, there’s a reason I’ve never posted in that thread. 
 

OK two, but you catch my drift.