Also in the news

[Nod.E]

Reading a lot about what men can do to help make women feel less scared. I.e. cross the road, overtake etc.

 

Let's be frank here. If it's dark and nobody is about, and somebody is walking behind you, you're going to be fvcking scared. Man or woman, me included. I would be, have been, am whenever it happens.

 

I'd want someone walking behind me to cross the road, too. But on the other hand if I was walking behind someone (man or woman) it just wouldn't cross my mind as a 'normal' and unthreatening person. 

 

Case in point, I became aware of someone walking behind me earlier on the way back from the shop, and I got a little anxious. I looked over my shoulder and it happened to be an elderly woman who was clearly minding her own business. On other occasions it's been a bloke and I won't pretend that I wasn't more scared in those instances. But of course, every single time it's just in my head and the bloke is just going about his day. Point is, the fear is held in the mind of the person experiencing the fear. Unless you're literally following someone up and down streets, there's little you can do to control how much or little you are feared.

 

So, basically, women want special treatment? They want people to go out of their way to make them feel more comfortable. Well, me too!

 

How can this be equal? I thought we were striving for equality?

 

Obviously the rape/abduction cases only happen to women, so yes it's an additional factor, but these cases are so very, very rare, thankfully. 

 

The shock and the horror of the case causes disproportionate reaction in society.

Edited 11 March 2021 by Nod.E

[Lionator]

2 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

The shock and the horror of the case causes disproportionate reaction in society.

To be honest I do tend to agree. This particular case is incredibly distressing, one of the most distressing I can recall to be honest. The fact she was lured into his car using his police ID, the fact he was a stranger, the fact it was so random yet calculated. A truly horrific event. 

[Strokes]

3 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Significantly, though, they are three times as likely to be victims of a male attacker.

Tease.

[Nuneatonfox in Manchester]

I’m totally on board with men actively modifying their behaviour, even with seemingly innocuous things like crossing the street when it’s dark to allow a lone woman the security of feeling safe. I have always done this anyway when not too inconvenient, as it just seems like common sense.

 A potential curfew just for men would be ridiculous though. Obviously.

[Nuneatonfox in Manchester]

2 hours ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

This happened whilst I was out years ago, the female thought it was me that had touched her but it wasn't, she ended up sticking a glass in my face because she thought it was, to the point where I had to knock her out just to get her to stop attacking me. Bouncers dragged me out and roughed me up abit (not massively though tbf), they told me she was going to press charges against me etc. police were called, CCTV was checked and they reviewed the footage and saw it wasn't me and that she actually attacked me for no reason and I just defended myself. The club wouldn't even let me back in to sort myself out, I had blood pouring from my head/face and had to go to a pub nearly where I knew the bouncer to tidy myself up a bit.

 

In the end I told them I didn't wanna press charges against her, too much hassle and stress for what was meant to be a good night out.

 

In summary, make sure you're got the right bloke who has actually committed the crime before kicking off

 

You’re a better man than me, she could have blinded you or worse. I’d have taken her to the cleaners.

[Wymsey]

Made me smile..

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/barbie-ken-doll-turns-60-5136850

[John12345]

4 hours ago, Bert said:

It’s absolutely harrowing, that someone would do this. Let alone someone that’s supposed to serve and protect. Imagine it’s only going one way for him. Either will get done over by a lifer or do himself in. 
 

 

I know I'm a dinosaur and the guy may well be innocent but for these sorts of crimes I'd like to see death penalty. Will never happen though.

 

I do find it interesting that terror attacks seem to end in attackers being shot dead now. I know the argument is they could have explosives,  but sometimes I wonder if there's a policy.

[Facecloth]

2 hours ago, Nod.E said:

Reading a lot about what men can do to help make women feel less scared. I.e. cross the road, overtake etc.

 

Let's be frank here. If it's dark and nobody is about, and somebody is walking behind you, you're going to be fvcking scared. Man or woman, me included. I would be, have been, am whenever it happens.

 

I'd want someone walking behind me to cross the road, too. But on the other hand if I was walking behind someone (man or woman) it just wouldn't cross my mind as a 'normal' and unthreatening person. 

 

Case in point, I became aware of someone walking behind me earlier on the way back from the shop, and I got a little anxious. I looked over my shoulder and it happened to be an elderly woman who was clearly minding her own business. On other occasions it's been a bloke and I won't pretend that I wasn't more scared in those instances. But of course, every single time it's just in my head and the bloke is just going about his day. Point is, the fear is held in the mind of the person experiencing the fear. Unless you're literally following someone up and down streets, there's little you can do to control how much or little you are feared.

 

So, basically, women want special treatment? They want people to go out of their way to make them feel more comfortable. Well, me too!

 

How can this be equal? I thought we were striving for equality?

 

Obviously the rape/abduction cases only happen to women, so yes it's an additional factor, but these cases are so very, very rare, thankfully. 

 

The shock and the horror of the case causes disproportionate reaction in society.

I know what you mean. I live in a flat, and the car park is round the back off the main road. I'm not a fan of coming back late at night in the dark, as its a perfect spot for someone to hide. Especially the other year when people were dicking about in clown masks, I always had a worry that I'd come across some twat waiting to attack me. My parking space is right by the door and I don't mess about jumping out the car, entering the code and getting inside, I've just done it now when I got home. Stupid thing is I've lived here 8 years and nobody has ever been hanging around in car park, but that fear is always there. Maybe I've watched too many episodes of Silent Witness.

 

There's been a lot of talk today about educating boys so they are more respectful to women and I'm all for that. Unfortunately what has happened to Sarah Everard and others before, I wouldn't expect to be eradicated by education. It might stop some of the misogyny, it might stop the sexual harassment at work etc, but sick people who rape and murder are probably still going to commit those acts. It's never the victims fault when they are attacked, but we unfortunately don't live in a utopia. There are thing we can all do to protect ourselves from the evil that lives amongst us, sadly it won't always work. Always letting someone know where you going, sharing your location on Google maps or WhatsApp with friends or family are just two things. I was watching Jeremy Vine on 5 this morning and they were discussing it. A couple of the panel were complaining about giving advice, especially to women, on how to make things safer for themselves in a situation like Sarah found herself in. But as Vine pointed out, as the father of two teenage daughters, he can't speak to the man who in future may try and attack his daughter, so all he can do is offer advice to his girls on how to best protect themselves from this potential hypothetical attacker.

 

 

[leicsmac]

7 hours ago, Nod.E said:

I can understand how the actions of some will have touched many in some way (heckles, inappropriate touching), which clearly is not okay. But that isn't 97%, I'm sorry but it just isn't. Only 90% of people have access to the internet, for Christ sake. Are people seriously asserting that harassment is more common than internet access?

 

I just get frustrated at the reactions, firstly because I'm a numbers guy and the lack of understanding just grinds my gears. Secondly because ironically it does absolutely nothing to help. Remember Brexit? Telling leavers that they were stupid didn't convince them to change their mind. Similarly, implying that all men are weirdos will not lead to behaviour change. And if it does, it'll be for the worse.

 

As usual, sensationalism doesn't help anybody.

If this is true, and it might well be, then it cuts both ways.

 

Telling women that they have less to fear than what they may feel - true as it may or may not be by the numbers - will not convince them to change their minds for exactly the same reasons you postulate here.

[Nod.E]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

If this is true, and it might well be, then it cuts both ways.

 

Telling women that they have less to fear than what they may feel - true as it may or may not be by the numbers - will not convince them to change their minds for exactly the same reasons you postulate here.

True, but I'm not trying to change any female's mind or imposing my observations on women. I'm not posting on social media on the topic.

 

An already horrific story has been wrapped up in a storm of additional negativity, which is sad.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

True, but I'm not trying to change any female's mind or imposing my observations on women. I'm not posting on social media on the topic.

 

An already horrific story has been wrapped up in a storm of additional negativity, which is sad.

With respect, you posted here and there are also women who post and see the posts here, so in at least a small way, you have. Though I would not use the term "imposing your obsverations" because that's not what you have done IMO. More like "giving your observations".

 

I'd totally agree with the last sentence, however I don't think the negativity detracts from the necessity of the debate itself.

 

 

[leicsmac]

Anyhow, news from a different area:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-56364912

 

It's truly sad, and this highlights just how stark the ideological clash is between democratic and authoritarian systems.

[Nod.E]

24 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

With respect, you posted here and there are also women who post and see the posts here, so in at least a small way, you have. Though I would not use the term "imposing your obsverations" because that's not what you have done IMO. More like "giving your observations".

 

I'd totally agree with the last sentence, however I don't think the negativity detracts from the necessity of the debate itself.

 

 

I nearly referenced the fact we do have some female readers here, but stopped myself since I'm not actually saying women shouldn't feel fear. I'm saying men feel it, too, although to a lesser extent as we don't have to worry about sexual predators. 

 

As Facecloth mentioned, I don't think any amount of discussion will stop rapists from raping and murderers murdering. And thankfully these cases are incredibly rare.

 

There will always be bad guys. I completely agree with the idea that with education and conversation we can work to reduce 'low end' harassment (your cat calling/following etc.), but if I'm not mistaken, the prevalence given to this discussion came about because of a high profile and isolated abduction/killing/likely rape?

 

The end game of women feeling free to roam the streets worry-free is unicorn land, because the main driver of the fear is the murder cases. (Evidently, because it's what sparked this whole movement. I think it's a movement now anyway!)

 

So what are we actually achieving here? While there are many level-headed posts there is also a genuine undertone of hatred of men. It just doesn't feel very productive. Of course, I'm coming at this from a male angle, but even from a female angle I believe I'd still be frustrated for believing the ineffectiveness of the direction of discourse occurring. 

 

I class myself as a very 'reasonable' man and I strongly believe the women in my life (close, aquaintences, work colleagues and beyond) would attest to that, and my response has been one of frustration. So evidently it isn't effective. I mean I haven't seen a single male social media post, which kind of says it all. I'm sure there are some, but from my sample size it tells the story. What do you think less agreeable men make of all of this? And that's before we get onto the cat callers, the abusers, the rapers etc etc.

Edited 12 March 2021 by Nod.E

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

I nearly referenced the fact we do have some female readers here, but stopped myself since I'm not actually saying women shouldn't feel fear. I'm saying men feel it, too, although to a lesser extent as we don't have to worry about sexual predators. 

 

As Facecloth mentioned, I don't think any amount of discussion will stop rapists from raping and murderers murdering. And thankfully these cases are incredibly rare.

 

There will always be bad guys. I completely agree with the idea that with education and conversation we can work to reduce 'low end' harassment (your cat calling/following etc.), but if I'm not mistaken, the prevalence given to this discussion came about because of a high profile and isolated abduction/killing/likely rape?

 

The end game of women feeling free to roam the streets worry-free is unicorn land, because the main driver of the fear is the murder cases. (Evidently, because it's what sparked this whole movement. I think it's a movement now anyway!)

 

So what are we actually achieving here? While there are many level-headed posts there is also a genuine undertone of hatred of men. It just doesn't feel very productive. Of course, I'm coming at this from a male angle, but even from a female angle I believe I'd still be frustrated for believing the ineffectiveness of the direction of discourse occurring. 

 

I class myself as a very 'reasonable' man and I strongly believe the women in my life (close, aquaintences, work colleagues and beyond) would attest to that, and my response has been one of frustration. So evidently it isn't effective. I mean I haven't seen a single male social media post, which kind of says it all. I'm sure there are some, but from my sample size it tells the story. What do you think less agreeable men make of all of this? And that's before we get onto the cat callers, the abusers, the rapers etc etc.

Unless it is explicitly stated otherwise, given what is said out in the Internet unfortunately the arguments that have been given (the stats etc) carry the assumed inference that women should feel less fear than they do. You've clarified your own position and explicitly stated otherwise so that's no longer the case, but I hope you'll pardon the assumption.

 

I think taking aim at the idea that folks are aiming for some kind of utopia is a bit strawmannish, implying a Perfect Solution Fallacy when folks aren't really seriously considering that - just considering measures to make things at least a bit safer for women. As you say, there will always be bad guys, and most level-headed people will know that.

 

I'd also agree with the idea that the current direction of discourse might not really be effective - but then I'd add that an approach that is implied to be dismissive of the concerns being held by women (even if it is actually not, perception is sadly often more important than facts) is equally ineffective. If there is a problem with convincing communication, then both "sides" (using that term very loosely) have it.

[Pliskin]

Problem is most men aren’t like this. We are yet to get the full story so we don’t know what his motive was prior to committing this crime, my brothers Mrs was saying to us that all men need to be challenged because it is always men that do this... yes it is, but more men commit crime in general, more men steals more men are likely to deal and take drugs, more men are likely to be perpetrators in domestic violence cases, men are more likely to kill someone but men are more likely to commit suicide too. 
 

So, you expect to see a whole sale change in mentality amongst those who common these crimes? I don’t think so, there is a deeper routed psychological reason here, one that I don’t have the credentials to unpick, but I would take a stab at it being linked to mental health, coupled with a primal instinct. 
 

Generally if you’re willing to kill someone then your thought processes are going to be far from normal, as murder is the worst crime a single human can commit. This year more than ever we’ve seen examples of groups of people demanding whole sale changes on human behaviour....... whereas in an ideal world we would all live happily together free of prejudice and crime, but unfortunately life isn’t all unicorns and lolly pops, there’s a dark side to the human being that I don’t think we will ever remove, it has been present through history and will remain probably throughout our existence. 
 

All we can do as people is teach our children right and wrong, take time and effort to tell our children that discrimination is bad, from a young age help to make them understand what is acceptable human behaviour and what isn’t, that is the only way we will be able to reduce crimes like this from happening I think? 

[Buce]

 

This is why everybody should use a VPN:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/11/internet-providers-tracking-sites-we-visit-in-secretive-trial

[Babylon]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

This is why everybody should use a VPN:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/11/internet-providers-tracking-sites-we-visit-in-secretive-trial

MI5 will have a field day... 

 

Foxestalk

Foxestalk

Just Eat

Foxestalk

Foxestalk

Amazon

Foxestalk

Foxestalk

Santander

Foxestalk

Foxestalk

Porn

Foxestalk

Foxestalk

Foxestalk

Foxestalk

 

 

[Facecloth]

4 minutes ago, Babylon said:

MI5 will have a field day... 

 

Foxestalk

Foxestalk

Just Eat

Foxestalk

Foxestalk

Amazon

Foxestalk

Foxestalk

Santander

Foxestalk

Foxestalk

Porn

Foxestalk

Foxestalk

Foxestalk

Foxestalk

 

 

They will with a couple of poster judging by the posts in another thread.

 

Lots of googling age of consent and if you can have sex with a 17 year old 

[Babylon]

2 hours ago, Pliskin said:

Problem is most men aren’t like this. We are yet to get the full story so we don’t know what his motive was prior to committing this crime, my brothers Mrs was saying to us that all men need to be challenged because it is always men that do this... yes it is, but more men commit crime in general, more men steals more men are likely to deal and take drugs, more men are likely to be perpetrators in domestic violence cases, men are more likely to kill someone but men are more likely to commit suicide too. 
 

So, you expect to see a whole sale change in mentality amongst those who common these crimes? I don’t think so, there is a deeper routed psychological reason here, one that I don’t have the credentials to unpick, but I would take a stab at it being linked to mental health, coupled with a primal instinct. 
 

Generally if you’re willing to kill someone then your thought processes are going to be far from normal, as murder is the worst crime a single human can commit. This year more than ever we’ve seen examples of groups of people demanding whole sale changes on human behaviour....... whereas in an ideal world we would all live happily together free of prejudice and crime, but unfortunately life isn’t all unicorns and lolly pops, there’s a dark side to the human being that I don’t think we will ever remove, it has been present through history and will remain probably throughout our existence. 
 

All we can do as people is teach our children right and wrong, take time and effort to tell our children that discrimination is bad, from a young age help to make them understand what is acceptable human behaviour and what isn’t, that is the only way we will be able to reduce crimes like this from happening I think? 

There are so many issues, whether it's porn, abuse at an early age, pressure to be "Manly". There is no magic bullet to this, I'm talking the top end serious stuff. 

 

Yeah you can challenge someone cat calling a women in the street or the pub, but I don't think it's going to suddenly stop the higher end stuff, but it's a start and might stop normalising it. 

 

This notion that women should be able to walk through a park at midnight and not feel fear like men stuff is a bit nonsense though. I wouldn't walk through a bloody park at midnight alone. Yeah I should be able to, but there will always be willy pullers, there has been since the dawn of time you can't stop that, so it's about reducing risk. I get the argument though, I wouldn't even want my Mrs to run round my estate after dark. 

Edited 12 March 2021 by Babylon

[Babylon]

4 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

They will with a couple of poster judging by the posts in another thread.

 

Lots of googling age of consent and if you can have sex with a 17 year old 

Is it Ric in the Sidney Tavares thread?

[ClaphamFox]

I understand why women get so annoyed when men say, "It's not all men". They know it's not all men - the problem is, it's impossible to tell which men are dangerous and which aren't, which means they have to be wary of all men.

 

However, the argument that men have to take responsibillity for the actions of other men we've never met seems a bit redundant. Over the past few days I've read numerous variations of the argument that if only more men 'called out' their mates who admitted to having violent fantasies about harming women, these crimes would not occur. But just as women don't automatically know which men are potentially violent or sexually deviant, men don't either. Nobody of my aquaintance has ever done or said anything to suggest they'd be capable of violent, abusive or perverted behaviour - if they had, they would certainly have been 'called out' - and possibly even reported to the police. The men who are likely to commit these crimes are perfectly aware that they're deviant, and that's not something they're likely to advertise. I don't know what the solution is, but anybody who thinks that men who are capable of commiting depraved crimes are going to make their intentions obvious enough for other people to stop them is a bit naive. 

Edited 12 March 2021 by ClaphamFox

[Babylon]

16 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

I understand why women get so annoyed when men say, "It's not all men". They know it's not all men - the problem is, it's impossible to tell which men are dangerous and which aren't, which means they have to be wary of all men.

 

However, the argument that men have to take responsibillity for the actions of other men we've never met seems a bit redundant. Over the past few days I've read numerous variations of the argument that if only more men 'called out' their mates who admitted to having violent fantasies about harming women, these crimes would not occur. But just as women don't automatically know which men are potentially violent or sexually deviant, men don't either. Nobody of my aquaintance has ever done or said anything to suggest they'd be capable of violent, abusive or perverted behaviour - if they had, they would certainly have been 'called out' - and possibly even reported to the police. The men who are likely to commit these crimes are perfectly aware that they're deviant, and that's not something they're likely to advertise. I don't know what the solution is, but anybody who thinks that men who are capable of commiting depraved crimes are going to make their intentions obvious enough for other people to stop them is a bit naive. 

I'd hope the point they are trying to make is that if you call out the little stuff, the crass comments in the pub, the wolf whistles at work, it would help remove the lower end stuff they face day to day, which might in turn lead to a reduction of the high level serious stuff. But, there are often more deep rooted phycological issues for that stuff, which "don't do that mate" in the pub isn't going to sort out. 

 

 

[ClaphamFox]

8 minutes ago, Babylon said:

I'd hope the point they are trying to make is that if you call out the little stuff, the crass comments in the pub, the wolf whistles at work, it would help remove the lower end stuff they face day to day, which might in turn lead to a reduction of the high level serious stuff. But, there are often more deep rooted phycological issues for that stuff, which "don't do that mate" in the pub isn't going to sort out. 

 

 

If anybody ever wolf-whistled a woman at my work, they’d be sacked. And I don’t hear crass comments about women from friends in the pub. You can only call out things you actually witness.

[Pliskin]

49 minutes ago, Babylon said:

There are so many issues, whether it's porn, abuse at an early age, pressure to be "Manly". There is no magic bullet to this, I'm talking the top end serious stuff. 

 

Yeah you can challenge someone cat calling a women in the street or the pub, but I don't think it's going to suddenly stop the higher end stuff, but it's a start and might stop normalising it. 

 

This notion that women should be able to walk through a park at midnight and not feel fear like men stuff is a bit nonsense though. I wouldn't walk through a bloody park at midnight alone. Yeah I should be able to, but there will always be willy pullers, there has been since the damn of time you can't stop that, so it's about reducing risk. I get the argument though, I wouldn't even want my Mrs to run round my estate after dark. 

 

Absolutely agree. I wouldn't want to be walking through a dark park at night, and likewise I would not want the Mrs too either.

 

And you are absolutely bang on with the first sentence, there are so many different factors at play here, I am sure that there is a top psychologist out there who can produce the reasons why but the issue is not as black and white as it may seem, there is a more complex background to it. 

 

There are obviously things that do not help, such as page 3 and porn, to some men this is enough justification for them to heckle and oggle over women. I actually had an example of this at work, I spoke to someone on the phone on a site somewhere, and they were a bunch of blokes in the background talking about a female member of staff, it was extremely derogatory, degrading and sexual and i'm almost 100% sure if she had been there they would not have spoken in such a way, naturally I reported it to my line manager as I didn't like it and there was nothing.... No challenging, no mention about not tolerating such behavior, nothing... The attitude was,  "well she was not there so no harm caused".. This is what needs to be challenged and changed, because this kind of attitude is damaging, and it is condoning this attitude some men have towards women..... I'm not naive enough to know that some environments have a lot of blue talk, but why should it be acceptable for a bunch of blokes to speak in such a way? It can be compared to a pack of wolves salivating over a feed, it is unacceptable and it has to change.

Edited 12 March 2021 by Pliskin

[theessexfox]

Not that it really matters but Sarah Everard likely walked past my window probably within half an hour of when she was taken, which makes it seem horribly horribly close to home. My flatmates are terrified and it's just a nauseating story all round. I have been happily going for walks around the Common late at night since I've been here, and my (female) flatmates wouldn't dream of it, which says it all really. Of course bad things happen to men too but every woman I speak to has a strong feeling of vulnerability and fear anytime they're walking alone late at night and that's just a horribly depressing situation to be in.