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[MiDuck55]

52 minutes ago, Babylon said:

There are so many issues, whether it's porn, abuse at an early age, pressure to be "Manly". There is no magic bullet to this, I'm talking the top end serious stuff. 

 

Yeah you can challenge someone cat calling a women in the street or the pub, but I don't think it's going to suddenly stop the higher end stuff, but it's a start and might stop normalising it. 

 

This notion that women should be able to walk through a park at midnight and not feel fear like men stuff is a bit nonsense though. I wouldn't walk through a bloody park at midnight alone. Yeah I should be able to, but there will always be willy pullers, there has been since the dawn of time you can't stop that, so it's about reducing risk. I get the argument though, I wouldn't even want my Mrs to run round my estate after dark. 

Thing is it isn't just walking alone at night.  Most women would think twice about that, or never dare do it.

Last September, about 5pm in Sainsburys car park on Melton Road, it was quite busy and I was pushing my trolley to my car.  Walked past a white van parked with two men sitting in it.

As I passed they started banging on the windscreen and shouted obscene remarks inviting me to join them in the back of their van for a 'good seeing to'.

I was so shocked I threw the shopping into my car as quick as I could and drove off,  hands shaking, part through fear and part anger.

No doubt they would say they were just having a laugh, its only 'banter' right?

No. Ifs not. Its what wonem and girls have to put up with all the time.

Its why a woman seeing a couple of men walking down the street towards her will probably cross the road.  Its why a woman alone in a lift who sees a lone man get in will keep her head down, don't make eye contact cos that might give the wrong signal. Its why a woman going to her car in a deserted multi story and sees a man out of the corner of her eye will grasp her car keys as a potential weapon and instantly calculate if she can get to her car before he can get to her.

Of course the vast majority of men are the good guys. We know that. But we don't know which ones are the bad guys so we are wary of all.

Please , if anything good is to come out of this truely awful case, have a little understanding of what women have to put up with, and next time you are out on the lash and one of your mates is cat calling or worse, tell him to stop. Cos its never you, right?

 

[Babylon]

38 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

If anybody ever wolf-whistled a woman at my work, they’d be sacked. And I don’t hear crass comments about women from friends in the pub. You can only call out things you actually witness.

Of course, but it's common place. 

[Babylon]

2 hours ago, MiDuck55 said:

Thing is it isn't just walking alone at night.  Most women would think twice about that, or never dare do it.

Last September, about 5pm in Sainsburys car park on Melton Road, it was quite busy and I was pushing my trolley to my car.  Walked past a white van parked with two men sitting in it.

As I passed they started banging on the windscreen and shouted obscene remarks inviting me to join them in the back of their van for a 'good seeing to'.

I was so shocked I threw the shopping into my car as quick as I could and drove off,  hands shaking, part through fear and part anger.

No doubt they would say they were just having a laugh, its only 'banter' right?

No. Ifs not. Its what wonem and girls have to put up with all the time.

Its why a woman seeing a couple of men walking down the street towards her will probably cross the road.  Its why a woman alone in a lift who sees a lone man get in will keep her head down, don't make eye contact cos that might give the wrong signal. Its why a woman going to her car in a deserted multi story and sees a man out of the corner of her eye will grasp her car keys as a potential weapon and instantly calculate if she can get to her car before he can get to her.

Of course the vast majority of men are the good guys. We know that. But we don't know which ones are the bad guys so we are wary of all.

Please , if anything good is to come out of this truely awful case, have a little understanding of what women have to put up with, and next time you are out on the lash and one of your mates is cat calling or worse, tell him to stop. Cos its never you, right?

 

That was just one specific example. 

 

The problem is, those us who wouldn't do it already understand these things. The people who do it don't care and are often surrounded by others who don't care either. You might have a work place culture of it and it's difficult for one man (not at the top) to stop it, they can call people out, but when people have bills to pay etc, it's a nightmare situation all round.

 

As a society we've moved on a lot in lots of ways, but the internet in certain areas is a breeding ground for it and has made things worse. 

Edited 12 March 2021 by Babylon

[yorkie1999]

What i find disturbing in the Sarah Everard murder is that the suspect they've arrested is a police man, the one person that is vetted, trained and supposed to be trusted, i know you're innocent until proven guilty but being held in custody for a number of days makes for a pretty damning outlook. If the metropolitan police force cannot prevent one of its officers from going rogue, even after he was supposedly investigated for a previous case of indecent exposure, what hope do they have of being able to control what appears to be national problem with male harassment, because when all's said and done, they're the ones who will have to enforce any new laws or measures.

[coolhandfox]

I like the irony at the end of Baroness Jenny Jones statement "Discrimination of all kinds will be lessen", by discrimination against men.

 

 

[Nod.E]

In my life as a man, I have experienced:

 

- Having old women in pubs telling me what they'd like to do to me 

 

- A third year girl in my halls at uni when I was a fresher entering my room out of the blue, exposing herself and leaving 

 

- A girl pinching my arse on a night out 

 

- A girl getting a good firm grab of my arse on a night out 

 

I'm sure there are more, but these are the ones I remember.

 

We can all point to these things. I tend to agree that this sort of thing happens *more* to girls, but the suggestion is that it *only* happens to girls and somehow a good chunk of men are sick/perverse.

 

More to the point, I didn't give any of the above any thought whatsoever. I didn't feel victimised and it didn't impact my life in the slightest. 

 

Surely there has to be an element of women taking responsibility for the way they are portrayed as objects? Play the victim 24/7 and men are more likely to treat you as such.

Edited 12 March 2021 by Nod.E

[leicsmac]

Just now, Nod.E said:

In my life as a man, I have experienced:

 

- Having old women in pubs telling me what they'd like to do to me 

 

- A third year girl in my halls at uni entering my room out of the blue, exposing herself and leaving 

 

- A girl pinching my arse on a night out 

 

- A girl getting a good firm grab of my arse on a night out 

 

I'm sure there are more, but these are the ones I remember.

 

We can all point to these things. I tend to agree that this sort of thing happens *more* to girls, but the suggestion is that it *only* happens to girls and somehow a good chunk of men are sick/perverse.

 

More to the point, I didn't give any of the above any thought whatsoever. I didn't feel victimised and it didn't impact my life in the slightest. 

 

Surely there has to be an element of women taking responsibility for the way they are portrayed as objects? Play the victim 24/7 and men are more likely to treat you as such.

Why is it on them to do so?

 

With respect, we have had a woman giving her experience right at the top of this thread - would you feel comfortable saying this to her directly?

 

Apologies if this appears confrontational but this seems massively victim blaming.

[Dunge]

5 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

In my life as a man, I have experienced:

 

- Having old women in pubs telling me what they'd like to do to me 

 

- A third year girl in my halls at uni when I was a fresher entering my room out of the blue, exposing herself and leaving 

 

- A girl pinching my arse on a night out 

 

- A girl getting a good firm grab of my arse on a night out 

 

I'm sure there are more, but these are the ones I remember.

 

We can all point to these things. I tend to agree that this sort of thing happens *more* to girls, but the suggestion is that it *only* happens to girls and somehow a good chunk of men are sick/perverse.

 

More to the point, I didn't give any of the above any thought whatsoever. I didn't feel victimised and it didn't impact my life in the slightest. 

 

Surely there has to be an element of women taking responsibility for the way they are portrayed as objects? Play the victim 24/7 and men are more likely to treat you as such.

In all of these events, I doubt you’ll have felt in any danger of being overpowered by them though? Maybe embarrassed depending on your situation and perspective, but men are - in the main - bigger and stronger. If a 6’8, 20-stone bloke with a glint in his eye had got a good firm grab of your arse on a night out instead, I’m going to postulate that you might have shit yourself. I know I would.

[Nod.E]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Why is it on them to do so?

 

With respect, we have had a woman giving her experience right at the top of this thread - would you feel comfortable saying this to her directly?

 

Apologies if this appears confrontational but this seems massively victim blaming.

You can call it victim blaming, and it's a popular buzzword at the moment, so it'll land.

 

Part of the problem is the role women assign themselves as the victim.

 

If every man reacted to every perverse action of women for years and years, perhaps more women who are inclined to 'prey' would feel empowered to act on their impulses, too.

 

Obviously the main issue is that yes, these occurrences are more commonly administered male to female. I'm just saying the reaction doesn't help. It's self perpetuating. If that's victim blaming, well, guilty.

[Nod.E]

3 minutes ago, Dunge said:

In all of these events, I doubt you’ll have felt in any danger of being overpowered by them though? Maybe embarrassed depending on your situation and perspective, but men are - in the main - bigger and stronger. If a 6’8, 20-stone bloke with a glint in his eye had got a good firm grab of your arse on a night out instead, I’m going to postulate that you might have shit yourself. I know I would.

Right, so men should act differently to women on account of their size. 

 

Equality will never be achieved while genders are expected to act differently.

[MPH]

6 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

You can call it victim blaming, and it's a popular buzzword at the moment, so it'll land.

 

Part of the problem is the role women assign themselves as the victim.

 

If every man reacted to every perverse action of women for years and years, perhaps more women who are inclined to 'prey' would feel empowered to act on their impulses, too.

 

Obviously the main issue is that yes, these occurrences are more commonly administered male to female. I'm just saying the reaction doesn't help. It's self perpetuating. If that's victim blaming, well, guilty.

 

I would say part of the ‘problem’ is they know deep down that if it went further to a place they had to fight some man off, most would be afraid they couldn’t do it....

 

 

I doubt I’d feel the same if a women was attacking me..

[coolhandfox]

Like all forms of discrimination its about education and cultural change and people who don't follow the rules and laws of society are dealt with in the appropriate manner.

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

You can call it victim blaming, and it's a popular buzzword at the moment, so it'll land.

 

Part of the problem is the role women assign themselves as the victim.

 

If every man reacted to every perverse action of women for years and years, perhaps more women who are inclined to 'prey' would feel empowered to act on their impulses, too.

 

Obviously the main issue is that yes, these occurrences are more commonly administered male to female. I'm just saying the reaction doesn't help. It's self perpetuating. If that's victim blaming, well, guilty.

I think that's an incredibly cynical look at humanity, and I'm a cynic myself. Is there any evidence at all that a statistically significant proportion of humans will have advantage of others if the others act that way? For me, it's simply Just World Fallacy being postulated again. 

 

Honestly, I can understand the frustration - correct me if I'm wrong but it's about the generalisation and also the fact that you don't think it is particularly effective anyway? Well, there may be points to both of those, but the fact is that, as we've talked about before, the attitude displayed in the above post isn't going to help the situation either, so it all seems a mite self-gratifying than constructive IMO.

 

But hey, we all need to vent from time to time. Goodness knows there's enough that's wrong with the world.

[Nod.E]

5 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

I would say part of the ‘problem’ is they know deep down that if it went further to a place they had to fight some man off, most would be afraid they couldn’t do it....

 

 

I doubt I’d feel the same if a women was attacking me..

But thankfully that very rarely happens! More negative energy than it's worth and will achieve next to nothing.

[Dunge]

12 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

Right, so men should act differently to women on account of their size. 

 

Equality will never be achieved while genders are expected to act differently.

I’m not quite sure what you’re arguing for then - are you saying that you should be able to grab a girl’s arse on a night out because if she grabbed yours then you wouldn’t care, and that’s equality? Or something else?

[Izzy]

29 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

In my life as a man, I have experienced:

 

- Having old women in pubs telling me what they'd like to do to me 

 

- A third year girl in my halls at uni when I was a fresher entering my room out of the blue, exposing herself and leaving 

 

- A girl pinching my arse on a night out 

 

- A girl getting a good firm grab of my arse on a night out 

 

I'm sure there are more, but these are the ones I remember.

 

You lucky bastard. No need to brag 

[Nod.E]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

I think that's an incredibly cynical look at humanity, and I'm a cynic myself. Is there any evidence at all that a statistically significant proportion of humans will have advantage of others if the others act that way? For me, it's simply Just World Fallacy being postulated again. 

 

Honestly, I can understand the frustration - correct me if I'm wrong but it's about the generalisation and also the fact that you don't think it is particularly effective anyway? Well, there may be points to both of those, but the fact is that, as we've talked about before, the attitude displayed in the above post isn't going to help the situation either, so it all seems a mite self-gratifying than constructive IMO.

 

But hey, we all need to vent from time to time. Goodness knows there's enough that's wrong with the world.

Absolutely right.

 

It's just a vent. I'm not trying to solve the world's problems. Maybe that's my privilege, but I can still be objective about what is an ineffective negativity bomb.

[Dunge]

2 minutes ago, Izzy said:

You lucky bastard. No need to brag 

It’s never happened to me either. :-D

[Nod.E]

2 minutes ago, Dunge said:

I’m not quite sure what you’re arguing for then - are you saying that you should be able to grab a girl’s arse on a night out because if she grabbed yours then you wouldn’t care, and that’s equality? Or something else?

Nobody should be out grabbing bottoms. The focus is on getting men to stop grabbing bottoms, but women grab bottoms, too. So the current outrage feels disproportionate. 

[Nod.E]

Just now, Dunge said:

It’s never happened to me either. :-D

I do have a fantastic arse, it must be said.

[bovril]

29 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

In my life as a man, I have experienced:

 

- Having old women in pubs telling me what they'd like to do to me 

 

- A third year girl in my halls at uni when I was a fresher entering my room out of the blue, exposing herself and leaving 

 

- A girl pinching my arse on a night out 

 

- A girl getting a good firm grab of my arse on a night out 

 

I'm sure there are more, but these are the ones I remember.

 

We can all point to these things. I tend to agree that this sort of thing happens *more* to girls, but the suggestion is that it *only* happens to girls and somehow a good chunk of men are sick/perverse.

 

More to the point, I didn't give any of the above any thought whatsoever. I didn't feel victimised and it didn't impact my life in the slightest. 

 

Surely there has to be an element of women taking responsibility for the way they are portrayed as objects? Play the victim 24/7 and men are more likely to treat you as such.

Which pub is this and when is it reopening? 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Nod.E said:

Absolutely right.

 

It's just a vent. I'm not trying to solve the world's problems. Maybe that's my privilege, but I can still be objective about what is an ineffective negativity bomb.

I think there's the difference in personality types, then. Most of the time I feel inclined to try (in an incredibly small way) to solve those problems. Like, have a look at the latest post in the US politics thread and that's the kind of stuff that pisses me off and drives my desire for change.

 

But it's a curse as much as a good thing.

[LiberalFox]

I think there will be a lot of focus on the Met and whether this guy should have been picked up earlier, of course he could still carry out crime but the fact he was a serving policeman makes it seem worse. 

 

I have to agree that I wince when I see people I generally agree with arguing for curfews for men (I think most do so under the understanding that it wouldn't ever happen). 

Edited 12 March 2021 by LiberalFox

[Jon the Hat]

13 hours ago, John12345 said:

I know I'm a dinosaur and the guy may well be innocent but for these sorts of crimes I'd like to see death penalty. Will never happen though.

 

I do find it interesting that terror attacks seem to end in attackers being shot dead now. I know the argument is they could have explosives,  but sometimes I wonder if there's a policy.

There is a zero risk to the wider public and police policy, and if they are in any way threatening they get shot.  Armed police are trained to shoot people so they stay down, and not to miss so this inevitably means death for the terrorist.

[SecretPro]

1 hour ago, yorkie1999 said:

What i find disturbing in the Sarah Everard murder is that the suspect they've arrested is a police man, the one person that is vetted, trained and supposed to be trusted, i know you're innocent until proven guilty but being held in custody for a number of days makes for a pretty damning outlook. If the metropolitan police force cannot prevent one of its officers from going rogue, even after he was supposedly investigated for a previous case of indecent exposure, what hope do they have of being able to control what appears to be national problem with male harassment, because when all's said and done, they're the ones who will have to enforce any new laws or measures.

That and the fact he tried to off himself yesterday is pretty much an admission of guilt.

 

I genuinely suspect Sarah Everard wont be the only one - especially given the extent of the searches they are doing. The guy has had access to a tunnel network under the Dover Cliffs which strecthes for miles. Currently being searched.