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Countryfox

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By Countryfox, in General Chat

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fuchsntf

fuchsntf

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Am I right in thinking that you trekked in Afghanistan, @fuchsntf?

 

What's your take on all this?

To Take this further on the important Things in life....

If you like Remote adventourous walks...Wakhan-corridor../ Schandur National Park.../  Gilgit area treks..if Visa BS is still available....

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Sly

Sly

Posted
Posted

Still feels like a waste of 20 years, major loss of life and a waste of money. 
 

I’m sure many have managed to line their pockets and get filthy rich in that time period though. 

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doverfox

doverfox

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, The Syrup said:

Biden has a point tbf... if the Afghan army or president won't fight for their country, why should US forces remain and fight a civil war. A sad situation which the population will suffer from. 

A similar point Trump was making about fellow NATO members not wanting to pay for their own security.

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MPH

MPH

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, fuchsntf said:

To Take this further on the important Things in life....

If you like Remote adventourous walks...Wakhan-corridor../ Schandur National Park.../  Gilgit area treks..if Visa BS is still available....


 

theres actually some interesting YouTube travel vlogs on Afghanistan. One is an English girl - Eva zu beck ( sp!?)  and also a ginger haired young Jewish guy ( Drew Binsky?). Both obviously sidestepped the political  side of things and focused on the human side and just spending time with the people.. both done in the last 2-3years.

 

I don’t imagine there will be many travel blogs being done in the next couple of years, mind.

Edited by MPH
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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted (edited)

Still racking my brains about when exactly would have been a good time for the US to withdraw. Probably never.

 

4 hours ago, Sly said:

Still feels like a waste of 20 years, major loss of life and a waste of money. 
 

I’m sure many have managed to line their pockets and get filthy rich in that time period though. 

Someone of a cynical persuasion might say that was the point all along.

 

I'm sure there's numerous retired generals and stockholders in Lockheed, Raytheon et al who made bank.

 

 

3 hours ago, doverfox said:

A similar point Trump was making about fellow NATO members not wanting to pay for their own security.

Not getting quite as involved in international fvckery was something that Trump got right.

 

Just a shame about practically every single thing else, really. Broken clocks and all that.

Edited by leicsmac
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Fightforever

Fightforever

Posted
Posted (edited)

Problem is democracy simply will never work in Afghanistan because people identify with their tribe much more than their government. The biggest tribe will just take power, become kleptocratic and oppress the other ethnic groups. The same way it does in almost every other democratic state that has borders that make no sense, look at Africa if you need any examples. Afghanistan in its current borders shouldn't even be a country. Its 7+ ethnic groups that have completely different languages and cultures worthy of being their own states or uniting with their ethnic states crammed into a state that makes no sense by European colonisers. Since the elites and those in the army never identified with the state, they just became kleptocratic instead and once the US left it fell apart because the soldiers who were only fighting for money were not getting paid. They were never going to fight for free because as far as they are concerned, they aren't Afghanistani and couldn't care less about the state. For example, the Pashto and Uzbek languages are more different to each other than English and Punjabi. You’re never going to get people on the same page when the majority of them don't even speak the same language. And even when they do they care more about their tribe. To them their local tribe for the most part is their country.

 

I mean look at the percentage of the population that votes only 20% of the country even voted.

 

In my honest but controversial opinion the only way you even have a slight chance to get Afghanistan in its current borders to stay united and stable is to install a constitutional monarchy of some sort and even then, the chances are very slim.

 

In short it was always a waste of time.

Edited by Fightforever
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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
20 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Well at least Biden’s back on his holibobs. Just ignore the 15m women and girls thrown under the bus. Lol.

TBH I'm not sure how much this will play into the hands of the opposition anyway because the last guy was looking to do exactly the same thing.

 

But moving away from the politicking, still not sure about what should have been done, other than either never get involved in the first place, or having gone in there, totally smash the Taliban as an ideology as well as a fighting force (not easy).

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Fightforever

Fightforever

Posted
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

TBH I'm not sure how much this will play into the hands of the opposition anyway because the last guy was looking to do exactly the same thing.

 

But moving away from the politicking, still not sure about what should have been done, other than either never get involved in the first place, or having gone in there, totally smash the Taliban as an ideology as well as a fighting force (not easy).

In my opinion what should have happened in an ideal world is the state should have been split up. The Persian speaking parts should go to Iran. The Uzbeks to Uzbekistan. The Turkmen to Turkmenistan. And the Pashtuns and Balochis being given their own states. The fundamental problem with Afghanistan and most of the former colonial countries always has been that the borders never made any sense. 

Edited by Fightforever
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Guest SO1

Guest SO1

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, Sly said:

Still feels like a waste of 20 years, major loss of life and a waste of money. 
 

I’m sure many have managed to line their pockets and get filthy rich in that time period though. 

The "war on terror" has made the two counties that border Washington DC the wealthiest in the United States. https://usabynumbers.com/richest-counties-in-the-us/ pigs at the trough.

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Sly

Sly

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Fightforever said:

In my opinion what should have happened in an ideal world is the state should have been split up. The Persian speaking parts should go to Iran. The Uzbeks to Uzbekistan. The Turkmen to Turkmenistan. And the Pashtuns and Balochis being given their own states. The fundamental problem with Afghanistan and most of the former colonial countries always has been that the borders never made any sense. 

That makes sense. I doubt it was ever discussed. 

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Fightforever

Fightforever

Posted
Posted
20 minutes ago, Sly said:

That makes sense. I doubt it was ever discussed. 

Mainly due to Pakistan they have a huge Pashtun and Balochi minority. If they were sperate states then their ethnic compatriots on the Pakistani side would try to cecede to the new countries. Pakistan would never give the territories away peacefully because then Pakistan who itself is a state with borders that make no sense would then have its own spearatist problem with their other minorites who would also then want the right to leave.

 

Also if Afghanistan splits up then there would be less power for the Afgan elites who are the only people who have a stake in Afganistan staying divided. And since the Afgani elites were the only allies the west really had they needed to work with them.

 

Thats why I said thats what should happen in an ideal world because the geopolitical situation it would create makes that solution very hard to implement. 

 

The reason why that part of the world is in such a mess is because of the colonial powers 80 years prior just drawing squiggly lines on a map without thinking about the people who live there.

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bovril

bovril

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Sly said:

That makes sense. I doubt it was ever discussed. 

Considering how many times it's happened in the past I imagine occupying a country and then partitioning it and ****ing off probably was discussed at some point.

 

Thankfully it didn't happen as the majority of Afghans don't want it. 

Edited by bovril
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urban.spaceman

urban.spaceman

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-44053828

 

On the world of "incels".

 

You'd hope that the powers that be and the public at large would now treat them with the seriousness they deserve.

Controversial opinion time: They're actually vulnerable little boys who need real help, and sneering at them/treating them with contempt will only fuel their sense of disenfranchisement and victimhood. Not to sympathise with their ideology in any way of course. I just feel like there's a way to prevent these sorts of atrocities and it starts with helping them at the very beginning of the dark path they get led down. 

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Controversial opinion time: They're actually vulnerable little boys who need real help, and sneering at them/treating them with contempt will only fuel their sense of disenfranchisement and victimhood. Not to sympathise with their ideology in any way of course. I just feel like there's a way to prevent these sorts of atrocities and it starts with helping them at the very beginning of the dark path they get led down. 

That's what I meant by seriousness, really: treat them the same way as any other kind of destructive ideological indoctrination, which is pretty much the exact method you describe.

Edited by leicsmac
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Finnegan

Finnegan

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, The Syrup said:

Biden has a point tbf... if the Afghan army or president won't fight for their country, why should US forces remain and fight a civil war. A sad situation which the population will suffer from. 

 

Whichever president finally pulled the plug was always going to take pelters for it, it's why Obama and Trump bottled it. 

 

I've seen a scary amount of Trump vs Biden arguments on social media trying to attribute blame without a single mention of Bush. 

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bovril

bovril

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Controversial opinion time: They're actually vulnerable little boys who need real help, and sneering at them/treating them with contempt will only fuel their sense of disenfranchisement and victimhood. Not to sympathise with their ideology in any way of course. I just feel like there's a way to prevent these sorts of atrocities and it starts with helping them at the very beginning of the dark path they get led down. 

Their views are contemptible. And I wonder if you would take a similar view to other groups of radicalised male killers. 

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urban.spaceman

urban.spaceman

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, bovril said:

Their views are contemptible. And I wonder if you would take a similar view to other groups of radicalised male killers. 

100%. 

 

39 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

I just feel like there's a way to prevent these sorts of atrocities and it starts with helping them at the very beginning of the dark path they get led down. 

This bit applies to everyone radicalised by cancerous ideologies.

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bovril

bovril

Posted
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

100%. 

 

This bit applies to everyone radicalised by cancerous ideologies.

Fair enough.

 

I'm way out of my depth on this topic. It's very different from other violent groups like Islamic extremists who have often grown up around extreme violence and whose grievances and sense of victimhood seems to come from what they see as persecution of their nation or religion or sometimes specifically their families. The incels' complaints seem so superficial at times it's crazy to think they end up murdering people. 

Edited by bovril
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