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[Carl the Llama]

42 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

The speed at which the situation has evolved in Afghanistan is astonishing.

Agreed, saw a BBC article from just a couple days ago citing recent US intelligence saying "Kabul could come under attack within weeks".  There's been effectively no resistance based on what I've read so far.

[Innovindil]

Going to take a lot of explaining both here and in the US as to what 20 years of money and thousands of lives have done for us over there.

 

20 ****ing years. Undone in the space of a few weeks. Ridiculous really.

[Parafox]

2 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

Agreed, saw a BBC article from just a couple days ago citing recent US intelligence saying "Kabul could come under attack within weeks".  There's been effectively no resistance based on what I've read so far.

BBC now saying the Taliban have entered Kabul. They say they're keeping it peaceful but, it's the Taliban, so who knows how long for.

The Taliban are stating they are keeping the airport open to allow diplomats and FO staff to leave the country and they will not seek revenge on any of those who assisted the coalition. Once the diplomatic staff have left, I fear for the population.

[MPH]

12 minutes ago, Parafox said:

BBC now saying the Taliban have entered Kabul. They say they're keeping it peaceful but, it's the Taliban, so who knows how long for.

The Taliban are stating they are keeping the airport open to allow diplomats and FO staff to leave the country and they will not seek revenge on any of those who assisted the coalition. Once the diplomatic staff have left, I fear for the population.

 

by keeping it peaceful, I’m sure they mean keeping it peaceful *whilst the general population cooperates*

 

They are already reports of them forcing women to wear burkas, etc… If any woman defies that order I’d be interested to see how ‘ peaceful’ they remain.

[Parafox]

5 hours ago, leicsmac said:

"A Taliban government would give women the right to education and work, [A Taliban spokesman] added."

 

Well, they've got the part of statesmanship involving telling humongous lies with a straight face right, at least.

Meaningless statement aimed at placating the West and attempting to curry favour. What I heard on Newsnight a couple of nights ago, they also said girls would be allowed an education up to the age of 12. 

They are horrendous zealots that will stone women to death and nothing they say can be trusted. If they were a force for good, they'd allow more freedom, but they are not. All falsehoods and obfuscation.

[Fox92]

3 hours ago, Buce said:

 

The speed at which the situation has evolved in Afghanistan is astonishing.

Didn't mean to like your post, I meant it as an agreement to your comment.

[Parafox]

5 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

by keeping it peaceful, I’m sure they mean keeping it peaceful *whilst the general population cooperates*

 

They are already reports of them forcing women to wear burkas, etc… If any woman defies that order I’d be interested to see how ‘ peaceful’ they remain.

Absolutely. I can't imagine how terrifying it must be to for those who want to live a regular life, observing their religion as they choose without oppression or force or fear of death.

 

I heard an ex-soldier who was in Afghanistan talking the other day, saying he'd lost both legs and half an arm whilst serving in Afghan and now look at what's happening. He's questioning what his sacrifice was for. We should have made every effort possible to restrict the Taliban. Nothing any country and their armies and diplomats and politicians could do would ever stop them particularly given the support they get from other supportive regimes, but they could have been restricted and contained. Now look. Political and military vacuum and who fills it?

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

A monumental error, withdrawing troops. Obviously without the Americans, our troops would be beaten by the vast numbers of Taliban and the body gags coming home in large numbers.

 

We must now brace ourselves for consistant acts of terrorism, world wide, some of which could lead to huge losses of innocent lives.

 

I just cannot understand why the Americans have withdrawn. It is surely an insult to the soldiers who died, were maimed, and mentally damaged in the past twenty years. I am both shocked and disgusted.

[WigstonWanderer]

The Taliban with their medieval attitudes are an awful regime, but if a power transfer is inevitable with the Americans pulling out, a peaceful transfer is surely better than the destruction and bloodshed of a fight to the death by the Afghan army.

Edited 15 August 2021 by WigstonWanderer

[MPH]

1 hour ago, WigstonWanderer said:

The Taliban with their medieval attitudes are an awful regime, but if a power transfer is inevitable with the Americans pulling out, a peaceful transfer is surely better than the destruction and bloodshed of a fight to the death by the Afghan army.

 

but it’s this phrase ‘ peaceful transfer’ that gets me.

 

peaceful for who? The Taliban maybe.

 

 instead that bloodshed will be transferred from an armed battle  against armed soldiers to the oppression and brutalizing of a peaceful innocent population. 

 

there’s no winners here, except of course the brutal Taliban regime.

[st albans fox]

Going to be interesting to see how the taliban now behave in power.  they’ve seen that ‘antagonising the west’ could lead to them losing their grip on power.  I would think that they will look to bring in a regime that allows a little more latitude on women’s rights ref education and wearing the hijab rather than burka. I doubt that they will embrace the terror organisations that they did in the nineties. What goes on in the shadows is tough to know though …….

 

 

[MPH]

1 hour ago, st albans fox said:

Going to be interesting to see how the taliban now behave in power.  they’ve seen that ‘antagonising the west’ could lead to them losing their grip on power.  I would think that they will look to bring in a regime that allows a little more latitude on women’s rights ref education and wearing the hijab rather than burka. I doubt that they will embrace the terror organisations that they did in the nineties. What goes on in the shadows is tough to know though …….

 

 

 

already reports of them forcing women to wear burkas… painting over paintings of women, etc..

[urban.spaceman]

48 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

already reports of them forcing women to wear burkas… painting over paintings of women, etc..

Being told to stay home from universities too. I read somewhere that Herat's university was more than 50% female. Women who worked there have been told to stay home and their jobs would be taken by men.

[urban.spaceman]

8 hours ago, Buce said:

 

The speed at which the situation has evolved in Afghanistan is astonishing.

Astonishing really is the right word. A total capitulation that's left millions of people (women and girls especially) thrown to the ****ing wolves. Heartbreaking.

[leicsmac]

The thing is though, the US simply couldn't stay there forever - the day would have to come when they would have to withdraw, having a permanent standing army out there would be absurd for a variety of reasons.

 

So, with that in mind, the question has to be asked: what didn't they do, or didn't account for, that is now making the expenditure of trillions of dollars and countless lives essentially meaningless?

[MPH]

54 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

The thing is though, the US simply couldn't stay there forever - the day would have to come when they would have to withdraw, having a permanent standing army out there would be absurd for a variety of reasons.

 

So, with that in mind, the question has to be asked: what didn't they do, or didn't account for, that is now making the expenditure of trillions of dollars and countless lives essentially meaningless?

 

Biden’s administration has admitted that they totally overestimated the ability of the Afghan army… and this isn’t a dig at Biden because him and trump were virtually on the same page on this..

 

 

but how have they overestimated their abilities? Sure they trained them but did they not equip them too?  The one thing that was often talked about was the air support the U.S offered Afghan forces on missions. Did they not think they’d  still need this kind of support? 
 

sure giving them a bunch of blackhawks would be expensive, but so was throwing trillions at the situation and giving them a ‘ go get ‘em, tiger, ‘ briefing.

Edited 16 August 2021 by MPH

[MPH]

1 hour ago, urban.spaceman said:

Astonishing really is the right word. A total capitulation that's left millions of people (women and girls especially) thrown to the ****ing wolves. Heartbreaking.

 

and the Afghan president has fled the country… leaving his people behind to deal with the fallout…

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

Biden’s administration has admitted that they totally overestimated the ability of the Afghan army… and this isn’t a dig at Biden because him and trump were virtually on the same page on this..

 

 

but how have they overestimated their abilities? Sure they trained them but did they not equip them too?  The one thing that was often talked about was the air support the U.S offered Afghan forces on missions. Did they not think they’d  still need this kind of support? 
 

sure giving them a bunch of blackhawks would be expensive, but so was throwing trillions at the situation and giving them a ‘ go get ‘em, tiger, ‘ briefing.

I think it's not just about military strength and capability either - clearly the ideology that the Taliban have has a lot of adherents even within the Afghan army itself, the speed of the capitulation can't be just down to fear.

 

The US clearly didn't do enough to address that ideology while they were there, but then it is very difficult to counter something that is just an idea.

[Jattdogg]

...Guess no one is going to afghanistan once travel  there opens up...

 

Insane with how the afghan forces essentially gave up. 

 

Pakistan best be paying attention because the taliban has large numbers there too. Get sleepy and you're next.

[foxile5]

57 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

The US clearly didn't do enough to address that ideology while they were there, but then it is very difficult to counter something that is just an idea.

Not only an idea but one that is rooted, no matter how misguidedly, in religious beliefs. It's so hard to break beliefs that are galvanised by some religious indoctrination or other. 

 

 

[Innovindil]

4 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I think it's not just about military strength and capability either - clearly the ideology that the Taliban have has a lot of adherents even within the Afghan army itself, the speed of the capitulation can't be just down to fear.

 

The US clearly didn't do enough to address that ideology while they were there, but then it is very difficult to counter something that is just an idea.

Hard to say, but I think I disagree. On one hand you've got a side that will place any captured opponent fighters in prison, ready to be rescued when possible. On the other hand you've got a side that will likely chop your head off if captured. Reckon I'd be shitting myself too tbh. 

[WigstonWanderer]

I’ve heard statements saying that the US and allies didn’t expect Kabul to fall for weeks or months. But surely, if it’s accepted that it will eventually fall, why would anyone want to fight for just a delay to the inevitable? Quite sensibly the Afghan soldiers have concluded, that resistance is futile. No doubt this is a disaster for a great deal of the population, particularly women and girls.

Edited 16 August 2021 by WigstonWanderer

[leicsmac]

16 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Hard to say, but I think I disagree. On one hand you've got a side that will place any captured opponent fighters in prison, ready to be rescued when possible. On the other hand you've got a side that will likely chop your head off if captured. Reckon I'd be shitting myself too tbh. 

Yeah, I'd be pissing myself too.

 

However, I'm inclined to think (no evidence, mind) that a capitulation of this magnitude and pace has to have something more to do with it.

[st albans fox]

7 hours ago, MPH said:

 

already reports of them forcing women to wear burkas… painting over paintings of women, etc..

No surprise that there is a lack of communication on the taliban side from the top to their men on the ground. and wouldn’t surprise me if it wasn’t intentional. Given the speed of the capitulation, it’s going to take a little while for their ‘new’ policies to become clear.  They’re talking the talk in Doha but walking the walk in jallalabad is very different ! 

[Dunge]

I think they just failed to take into account a simple psychology. As I understand it, the “Afghan army” wasn’t just one organisation but kind of a series of factions and alliances out in the provinces. These factions were then left with a choice: Keep fighting a brutal enemy indefinitely with a supply chain that’s poor at best (and probably lose after a month or two regardless), or stand back, let them in, shake their hands and survive. On that basis I totally understand why they’d go for the latter.

Modern Afghanistan, such that it ever truly existed, is dead. The question remaining is whether the Taliban will allow for or join in terrorist activities, attracting the ire of the West again, or whether they’ll just sit back enjoy ruling the country again rather than having to hide in caves and mountains like they have done for twenty years.