Also in the news

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Countryfox said:

@leicsmac ...  this one  was in todays Telegraph so is that ok  ??   ...  and it’s not the Mail drumming things up, this is the Chinese government threatening “public and painful “ retaliation.  Their pursuit of world domination (the government not the people of course) is so aggressive t wouldn’t surprise me if the released the virus on purpose to fvck up everybody elses economy.  
 

 

...I'm a little confused as to where I actually said any of this was ok, to be honest. In fact in our last conversation the final sentence of my reply was rather clear on that - evidently not clear enough, though.

 

So, allow me to restate with (hopefully) added clarity - the Chinese government are aggressively nationalistic and repressive to a massive degree, and are throwing their weight around. The Chinese people (by and large) are not. I'm not quite sure why being thoughtful enough to separate the two has caused such ire and not generalising based on nationality is somehow offensive.

 

NB. They're hardly the only nationalistic dick-wavers currently in the playground, either , or even the biggest - this just makes news because currently their displeasure is directed at the UK.

[Jon the Hat]

What are they going to do?  Stop selling us crap?

[ealingfox]

Didn't Corbyn get dogs abuse for saying Begum should have been allowed back in to the country so she could be tried? 

[BKLFox]

1 hour ago, peach0000 said:

I guess the laws the law no matter who you are. She certainly needs to be held accountable for her actions but I have little doubt the UK govt acted against international law by stripping her citizenship. Bring her back follow the process of law and hopefully she won't see the outside world for a long long time. 

 

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

Hopefully she is tried for an actual crime under British law, and if found guilty recieved the appropriate sentence.  Stripping her of her citizenship was a silly political stunt in the first place.  Bring them home and porsecute them is the right thing to do.

UK haven't done anything different to most of Central Europe with this approach have they

[peach0000]

6 minutes ago, BKLFox said:

 

UK haven't done anything different to most of Central Europe with this approach have they

Then Central European countries are also in the wrong. In Yemen you can be executed for being gay doesn't mean the UK should do it. I don't get your point.

Edited 16 July 2020 by peach0000

[peach0000]

13 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

Didn't Corbyn get dogs abuse for saying Begum should have been allowed back in to the country so she could be tried? 

Yes and wrongly so in my opinion. He was completely right on this issue as well as most other human rights issues. 

[BKLFox]

4 minutes ago, peach0000 said:

Then Central European countries are also in the wrong. In Yemen you can be executed for being gay doesn't mean the UK should do it. I don't get your point.

The point being the comments suggest the Tory govenment has acted outside of the law & for political point scoring alone, drawing a reader to imagine only UK nationals are still held outside of their 'home' country, which isn't the case.

 

 

[peach0000]

Just now, BKLFox said:

The point being the comments suggest the Tory govenment has acted outside of the law & for political point scoring alone, drawing a reader to imagine only UK nationals are still held outside of their 'home' country, which isn't the case.

 

 

I believe the government has acted outside of the law personally, but it is of course open to interpretation. If other governments have done the same (I'll admit I haven't looked into it) then I hope they are held to account but the courts as well and their citizens are allowed to return home and be tried in the relevant judicial system.

[BKLFox]

1 minute ago, peach0000 said:

I believe the government has acted outside of the law personally, but it is of course open to interpretation. If other governments have done the same (I'll admit I haven't looked into it) then I hope they are held to account but the courts as well and their citizens are allowed to return home and be tried in the relevant judicial system.

Yep they have indeed, only last year the German & French governments transfered some of their ''former nationals'' from Syria to Iraq for trial, they were sentenced to death.
The whole things a minefield

[Countryfox]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

...I'm a little confused as to where I actually said any of this was ok, to be honest. In fact in our last conversation the final sentence of my reply was rather clear on that - evidently not clear enough, though.

 

So, allow me to restate with (hopefully) added clarity - the Chinese government are aggressively nationalistic and repressive to a massive degree, and are throwing their weight around. The Chinese people (by and large) are not. I'm not quite sure why being thoughtful enough to separate the two has caused such ire and not generalising based on nationality is somehow offensive.

 

NB. They're hardly the only nationalistic dick-wavers currently in the playground, either , or even the biggest - this just makes news because currently their displeasure is directed at the UK.

There is no ire ..  just mild irritation that my comments, that China could well launch a cyber attack on us, that ...  on the back of and during the virus pandemic (which also came from China) ...  could cause even more serious damage to this country ... you seem to be more interested in pointing out the difference between the government and the people, and also manage to bring in and criticise other world leaders including Boris ...  which to me is totally irrelevant.    

 

And in your last post you point out that there are other dick wavers out there ...   but this is only news cus it's directed at the UK ?!?   Yep ...  if a massive super power threatens us I'd say that was news ...   and important bloody news at that !  

[Countryfox]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

...I'm a little confused as to where I actually said any of this was ok, to be honest. In fact in our last conversation the final sentence of my reply was rather clear on that - evidently not clear enough, though.

 

So, allow me to restate with (hopefully) added clarity - the Chinese government are aggressively nationalistic and repressive to a massive degree, and are throwing their weight around. The Chinese people (by and large) are not. I'm not quite sure why being thoughtful enough to separate the two has caused such ire and not generalising based on nationality is somehow offensive.

 

NB. They're hardly the only nationalistic dick-wavers currently in the playground, either , or even the biggest - this just makes news because currently their displeasure is directed at the UK.

 

And if they do launch a cyber attack and it causes a shutdown of the the power companies and the NHS (amongst others) ...  and life saving operations have to be cancelled ...   I'm going to look forward to seeing you running round Mac shouting out  " Its alright everyone it's not the Chinese people that did this cus (by and large) they are a nice bunch you know ! "

 

I could write for The Mail  !  ...    

[Strokes]

2 hours ago, Countryfox said:

I’m still waiting to hear what’s happening in Leicester with regard to the hosiery problem we have that involves issues such as illegal immigration and modern day slavery as well as a major reason why we have some of the worst virus figures in the UK ...  I read the local press ..  I watch the news ...  Soulsby is coming out with things like  “Had we had this detailed granular information six weeks ago we could have targeted the area with the problem..  knocking on doors, reinforcing the public health message and so on ..”.     and ...   “It was a political decision to take us into lock down ..”  

 

Seriously am I missing something here ...   didn’t we know that the hosiery problem was a major part of the virus problem, didn’t we know where they were (or the areas they were in), didn’t we know that due to the big money involved that ‘reinforcing the public health message’ would have no effect whatsoever and these places had to be shut down ...   asap !   No ..  he is more interested in the politics !!   I’ve got a sneaky feeling we probably won’t hear much more about it all ...   nothing changes ...  and here’s me thinking slavery is a hot topic.  
 

I was speaking to a friend of mine who lives not far from one of the hot ares and he says if you pass through at 5 in the morning you could  see large groups of workers waiting to be picked up and taken to the factory ...    and that happened every day until very recently.

It appeals to his core base to blame the tories for everything.

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

There is no ire ..  just mild irritation that my comments, that China could well launch a cyber attack on us, that ...  on the back of and during the virus pandemic (which also came from China) ...  could cause even more serious damage to this country ... you seem to be more interested in pointing out the difference between the government and the people, and also manage to bring in and criticise other world leaders including Boris ...  which to me is totally irrelevant.    

 

And in your last post you point out that there are other dick wavers out there ...   but this is only news cus it's directed at the UK ?!?   Yep ...  if a massive super power threatens us I'd say that was news ...   and important bloody news at that !  

Just now, Countryfox said:

 

And if they do launch a cyber attack and it causes a shutdown of the the power companies and the NHS (amongst others) ...  and life saving operations have to be cancelled ...   I'm going to look forward to seeing you running round Mac shouting out  " Its alright everyone it's not the Chinese people that did this cus (by and large) they are a nice bunch you know ! "

 

I could write for The Mail  !  ...    

Well, if they do, then I'll be clamouring for the international community to act accordingly in response, and yes, that means targetting the Chinese government (who are responsible for it) and encouraging a change there rather than the people who didn't choose them (who are not) and engaging in some classic Yellow Peril xenophobia. I'd also direct you to the quote in the previous page from Marjane Satrapi rather than try to appeal to some sense of patriotic shame on my behalf.

 

NB. Saying or inferring multiple times that the Chinese are responsible for how the Covid-19 outbreak has spread in the US, UK and other places once it left China doesn't make it magically true (unless China is suddenly able to control, exact and enforce all laws and regs to prevent the spread of Covid in the UK, US and 211 other sovereign nation states - stranger things have happened, I guess? )

[LiberalFox]

Well we can all agree that the CCP is separate from ordinary Chinese people and people of Chinese ethnicity and stop arguing over something there doesn't seem to be a disagreement on? One other thing we can agree on is we need to get international support if we are to stand up to the Chinese state. 

 

Ultimately though, while it makes sense for there to be state intervention in industries of strategic importance, I believe free trade to be a net positive and we should be careful not to get forced into an American led trade war against China. 

 

 

 

 

[leicsmac]

8 hours ago, LiberalFox said:

Well we can all agree that the CCP is separate from ordinary Chinese people and people of Chinese ethnicity and stop arguing over something there doesn't seem to be a disagreement on? One other thing we can agree on is we need to get international support if we are to stand up to the Chinese state. 

 

Ultimately though, while it makes sense for there to be state intervention in industries of strategic importance, I believe free trade to be a net positive and we should be careful not to get forced into an American led trade war against China. 

 

 

 

 

Would it be that we could, but apparently according to some media sources, we cannot or do not, because....reasons, apparently. That was the point I made originally.

 

As you say there shouldn't really be a disagreement on it as it's patently obvious but unfortunately there are sources out there ready to conflate the two for their own ends and people ready to read it and believe them.

 

Absolutely agree with the rest of this.

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53434147

 

Appeal to jingoistic rhetoric? It's election year, folks!

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53429506

 

China not the only ones looking to be nasty in cyberspace - the Russians want in too. Sigh.

 

Is it too much to expect that a search for a vaccine that would benefit all nations actually be a collaborative effort between all nations rather than some nationalistic pissing contest that has to be "won"?

 

 

[BKLFox]

19 hours ago, BKLFox said:

Yep they have indeed, only last year the German & French governments transfered some of their ''former nationals'' from Syria to Iraq for trial, they were sentenced to death.
The whole things a minefield

& so it begins

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12140207/isis-followers-jihadi-jack-return-uk-shamima-begum-ruling/

(i've taken from the sun just because not behind a subs wall but most papers reporting the same)

[fuchsntf]

20 hours ago, Countryfox said:

There is no ire ..  just mild irritation that my comments, that China could well launch a cyber attack on us, that ...  on the back of and during the virus pandemic (which also came from China) ...  could cause even more serious damage to this country ... you seem to be more interested in pointing out the difference between the government and the people, and also manage to bring in and criticise other world leaders including Boris ...  which to me is totally irrelevant.    

 

And in your last post you point out that there are other dick wavers out there ...   but this is only news cus it's directed at the UK ?!?   Yep ...  if a massive super power threatens us I'd say that was news ...   and important bloody news at that !  

I would say that any high  IT tech. country that has been able to Launch Cyber attack,  already probably has. 

This new issue wouldnt give China a better swipe,Asia are already years ahead of USA & Europe,Plus more Asians Work in high Technical positions Jobs

in our IT- industry, than we having IT engineers Working in theirs....( I have Worked in Asia )....

Any Cyber attacks,abuse,spying either low or high key, is not something new.....Joe public get Sold alot of rhetoric crap years After platforms have been built..I

many IT-Specialist /project analysts are low key,its what happens in the Next stage....

 

Sorry but the boogey man us already here..!!!

 

Und I Don t mean...

 

 

Edited 17 July 2020 by fuchsntf

[leicsmac]

...anyone else getting an Eastern Europe circa 1942-44 vibe here? You know, "we're resettling them in the East where they can be put to work"?

 

There simply has to be better ways of governance, even when you're talking about governing nearly a billion and a half people in a culturally diverse setting. This is just reprehensible.

 

 

Edited 17 July 2020 by leicsmac

[leicsmac]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-protests-federal-arrests/

 

Just because this administration dislikes China as a rival, doesn't mean they aren't taking notes on how they quash dissent, evidently.

[leicsmac]

8 hours ago, leicsmac said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-protests-federal-arrests/

 

Just because this administration dislikes China as a rival, doesn't mean they aren't taking notes on how they quash dissent, evidently.

More on the above:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53453077

 

Evidently the powers that be never read any Machiavelli.

[urban.spaceman]

14 hours ago, leicsmac said:

...anyone else getting an Eastern Europe circa 1942-44 vibe here? You know, "we're resettling them in the East where they can be put to work"?

 

There simply has to be better ways of governance, even when you're talking about governing nearly a billion and a half people in a culturally diverse setting. This is just reprehensible.

 

 

Extremely sinister. Add that to the fact the USA seized 14 tonnes of Uighur hair the other week. The general apathy here is really weird. The outrage over Boris' Burka comments (despite being against a ban) went on for ****ing weeks. A month after Charlie Hebdo 10,000 Muslims marched in London and handed over a 100,000 signed petition complaining about the right of a French publication to offend British Muslims. 

 

And yet... There's >1m Uighurs being put into actual concentration camps by China and there doesn't seem to be any interest in it whatsoever?!?!?

 

Weird/

[leicsmac]

22 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Extremely sinister. Add that to the fact the USA seized 14 tonnes of Uighur hair the other week. The general apathy here is really weird. The outrage over Boris' Burka comments (despite being against a ban) went on for ****ing weeks. A month after Charlie Hebdo 10,000 Muslims marched in London and handed over a 100,000 signed petition complaining about the right of a French publication to offend British Muslims. 

 

And yet... There's >1m Uighurs being put into actual concentration camps by China and there doesn't seem to be any interest in it whatsoever?!?!?

 

Weird/

I'm just guessing here, but I think perhaps the idea behind that attitude is to focus only on things that can actually be changed by your actions. Protesting against Boris's comments and the whole Charlie Hebdo thing are things likely to lead to some element of change, coming out against the Chinese government mistreatment of the Uighurs is going to do naff all without broad-wave international support from governments - and even then the Chinese government may well just simply roll their eyes, give their usual spiel about "external interference in internal affairs" and keep doing what they're doing, while giving Trump lots of top tips for his own governance (look at what is going on in Portland right now).

 

It may well seem hypocritical - in fact it likely is hypocritical - but I believe that to be the angle.

[los dedos]

7 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I'm just guessing here, but I think perhaps the idea behind that attitude is to focus only on things that can actually be changed by your actions. Protesting against Boris's comments and the whole Charlie Hebdo thing are things likely to lead to some element of change, coming out against the Chinese government mistreatment of the Uighurs is going to do naff all without broad-wave international support from governments - and even then the Chinese government may well just simply roll their eyes, give their usual spiel about "external interference in internal affairs" and keep doing what they're doing, while giving Trump lots of top tips for his own governance (look at what is going on in Portland right now).

 

It may well seem hypocritical - in fact it likely is hypocritical - but I believe that to be the angle.

Its more like most people are more bothered about whose doing the killing/mistreatment  . The west, Israel, Saudi equals bad, anyone else Meh 

[Alf Bentley]

8 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

Extremely sinister. Add that to the fact the USA seized 14 tonnes of Uighur hair the other week. The general apathy here is really weird. The outrage over Boris' Burka comments (despite being against a ban) went on for ****ing weeks. A month after Charlie Hebdo 10,000 Muslims marched in London and handed over a 100,000 signed petition complaining about the right of a French publication to offend British Muslims. 

 

And yet... There's >1m Uighurs being put into actual concentration camps by China and there doesn't seem to be any interest in it whatsoever?!?!?

 

Weird/

 

Good point. 

 

Covid dominance of media and lives will be part of the explanation, but only part. This oppression was going on before Covid.

I suppose I'd have to include myself in the "apathy" as I saw similar reports months back.

 

Thinking about it, I also don't remember the Muslim community in the UK making much of these events.

For that matter, the response to the crackdown in Hong Kong has been muted among the public despite media coverage and govt. actions. 

 

Maybe there's a widespread feeling that China is both a powerful nation and remote from us (especially this part of China), so little prospect of exerting any influence?