Meat and Disease

[ozleicester]

7 minutes ago, don_danbury said:

well she needs to become vegan if she wants to cut animal murdering out completely. as someone else said, if someone is a veggie because of the animal cruelty then it's pretty pointless. 

Well, it isnt really is it... on average she would be saving 20-30 animal lives a year.

[Izzy]

17 minutes ago, don_danbury said:

well she needs to become vegan if she wants to cut animal murdering out completely. as someone else said, if someone is a veggie because of the animal cruelty then it's pretty pointless. 

Well I (and the wife probably) always thought milking a cow and a hen laying an egg was pretty harmless in the grand scheme of things.

 

We have organic milk and free range eggs if that helps? 

[Izzy]

10 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Well, it isnt really is it... on average she would be saving 20-30 animal lives a year.

I'll tell her that. After the recent stick she's just received it'll make her day 

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

This idea that if one person stopped eating meat then 20 animals a year are saved or 500 people then however many tens of thousands of animals are saved, its just not true. If half a billion people stopped eating meat then yeah there'd be much, much less demand and not as much would get made in the first place. But all one person becoming a veggie achieves is a few more packs of sausages in the whoops Isle of asda or being thrown out when they go off. 

[Big Dave]

21 minutes ago, Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot said:

To me meat is the focal point of most of my evening meals. I know vegetarians and my problem with it is the replacement meat like quorn etc, you have a bite and think ooh that's nice but then by the 4th or 5th bite (be it sausages, burgers or chicken in my experience) there's just such a stale over riding cardboard after taste and its truly hideous and ruins the entire meal. The meals I don't have meat with can be lovely and I enjoy them, if fake meat was better I'd consider it but until then I just love a burger or a bacon sandwich too much to seriously consider it. 

I agree to some extent.

We try to eat mainly vegetarian meals during the week, and to do those, we do not use fake veggie meats (like quorn) - they are gross. We just cook proper wholesome veggie meals which are really tasty.  To me, these meat substitutes are just an attempt to appease some meat eaters.

It takes a while to get used to a different way of cooking, but now we can look in the fridge and put together a load of recipes in no time at all that are really tasty and meat free.

I still love a bacon sandwich at the weekend and sausages on the BBQ.

[Jon the Hat]

5 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

Thing is, the cases in this country weren't to do with the meat carrying the virus, it was people working in close proximity to each other who passed the virus around. What if they had been working in a potato factory, would anyone give up chips?, doubt it.

Yes exactly, rather confusing arguments I thought.

[Big Dave]

17 minutes ago, Izzy said:

Well I (and the wife probably) always thought milking a cow and a hen laying an egg was pretty harmless in the grand scheme of things.

 

We have organic milk and free range eggs if that helps? 

Yes, free range eggs are fine - battery hen conditions are appalling.  I cannot understand why people would buy eggs that are not free range.

[Guest Kopfkino]

1 hour ago, David Guiza said:

Appreciate the sentiment, but there are countless reasons why somebody might call themselves a vegetarian and not a vegan. I am practically vegan but I don't particularly like the term because of all that comes with it. I also would find it a little hypocritical to call myself one if I were to eat even the tiniest amount of dairy, for the same reason that I wouldn't call somebody who had sex once a decade a virgin. 

 

Meat farming is bad for the environment - Some people become vegetarian because they care about the ethics, but don't have the will power to give up dairy, so what? Yes it would hypocritical if this was their circumstances, but lectured their peers on animal cruelty, but most veggies just get on with their lives, same as meat eaters.

 

Meat is less healthy - I would suggest that very few people give up meat for health reasons but continue to consume dairy, and even then it's about moderation. 

 

There's disease in processing plants - I don't think many or even any have given up meat as a result of this, and if they did then that's their prerogative. Air travel is a fear of thousands of people even though it's completely safe on the main, but if travelling by car/train makes somebody feel more at ease or somebody feels safer from giving up meat as a result of this then what's the issue?

 

I don't like meat - yeah well I don't like apples but I don't feel the need to signal it to everyone by giving myself a special title - The most bizarre of all your arguments. Not eating an entire food group that is present in almost every supermarket, cafe, restaurant, services, is a little different to not liking apples. I dare say that somebody who does not like apples has never had to avoid a particular restaurant because they serve exclusively apple based dishes? 

 

I get your point in that the veggies who are trying to induce guilt in meat eaters are somewhat hypocritical given that the dairy industry is an awful thing, but on the whole most veggies/vegans keep it to themselves and are just trying to limit their impact on the environment/animal cruelty wherever possible. It's impossible to be completely virtuous in life, but I admire those who do what they can without limiting their enjoyment completely. I'm sure you have things that you feel passionately about that conflict with other interests you have.

 

I think you should have took it for the irreverent Jeremy Clarkson nonsense that it was tbh. Thought the apple point made that clear enough. 

 

You do you, idc. If veggies and vegans want to be veggie and vegan then good on them. I only care when they get preachy and when they turn up to a bbq and announce it to everyone at least 4 times in the first 20 seconds of being there. 

 

2 hours ago, Izzy said:

My wife’s vegetarian but not vegan. She’s vegetarian because she’s against murdering animals which is fair enough.

Shes not vegan because she likes cheese, milk and eggs and as far as I know, animals aren’t killed in that process.

I guess that’s the reason some people choose to be vegetarian and not vegan.

 

See, I don't actually get this. I don't understand how you can be against killing animals but perfectly fine with some of the practices that might be experienced by a cow producing your pint of milk from Tesco. I get the cruelty argument, I try to source high welfare meat but when I eat out I accept I don't know where its come from so don't know so never mind. But in killing an animal, well it hardly knows anything about it, once it's dead its dead and it only had the gift of life in the first place to end up on your dinner plate. How it's treated during life is surely more important than the fact it dies. And the dairy industry on average is worse for the animals than the beef industry. 

 

Again, each to their own but it strikes me more as doing something and fitting a reason in after. 

[Jattdogg]

14 minutes ago, Big Dave said:

Yes, free range eggs are fine - battery hen conditions are appalling.  I cannot understand why people would buy eggs that are not free range.

If they cost more it's a no brainer for those on fixed and/or low incomes etc.

[Trav Le Bleu]

Someone should make a buddy cop movie with this thread's title.

 

"Dick Meat is a one-man Armageddon and only Trent Disease can stop him unloading!"

 

Meat and Disease

 

Only in theaters 7-24-21

 

 

And, yes, I realise that Trent Disease sounds like something you catch off a Forest fan 

[David Guiza]

5 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

Thing is, the cases in this country weren't to do with the meat carrying the virus, it was people working in close proximity to each other who passed the virus around. What if they had been working in a potato factory, would anyone give up chips?, doubt it.

Nobody has claimed that it is meat carrying the virus, have they? If that's how my post comes across then I apologise but for me there are two issues. The first issue is in terms of the factories and their conditions. We tend to hide our heads in the sand when it comes to food standards and meat in this country on the basis that because we're not as bad as China or whoever, we don't have an issue. Clearly the conditions are helping keep the disease alive and spread in certain situations. Were you to eat high quality and organic meat, as @Kopfkino and others have alluded to, then it's far less of an issue. I would however guess that the vast majority of meat consumption in this country isn't in that form though, and it is in fact from the sort of factories that have had these outbreaks. Were the vast majority of meat eaters to eat local, good quality, meat and in less quantity then you would still have an ethical debate, but both the disease risk and the impact on the environment would be substantially lowered.

 

The second issue is the amount of disease that animals carry, which links back to the first point. According to this article - https://www.forbes.com/sites/johncumbers/2020/05/09/preventing-another-pandemic-might-be-as-simple-as-trying-alternative-meat/#1c47d7372c33, which cites this study - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3367616/ - three quarters of all human emerging diseases have come about from zoonotic pathogens (animal to human), including swine fever, mad cow disease and ebola. I'm far from an expert on the subject, but lessening meat consumption would surely be a positive in preventing that? 

 

I appreciate it's not for everyone, and I'm not here to change your mind but merely to have a discussion . 

[Ric Flair]

Can this be a confession thread for all meat eaters who carry with them some truly despicable acts of meat consumption?

 

1) them grotesque sausage rolls from the corner shop called Pete's or something. Pastry is always the absolute bins and falling apart and the meat nearly bounces out your mouth when you eat it. Usually contains ketchup or something equally as synthetic as well

2) tinned burgers, once had them for a laugh. Weirdly enjoyed them, have had way more tins since than is acceptable

3) beans and little sausages - at the centre of many a comfort meal. Feel really guilty for getting my 4 year old obsessed with them, we even have a beans and little sausages song we sing and I put 2 tins in his stocking from santa

4) I eat in excess of 20 pepperami's a month, my record is 21 in a day  - had hallucinations and breath like a dragon. Missus nearly left me

5) I am the creator of National Pie Cob Day at my work - started out just a couple of geezers going the chip shop and getting a beef & onion pie and a cob and eating it back in the canteen. It's a different beast now, competition is very fierce and the number of people involved has risen significantly. Even got a director involved. Last year I nearly ended up in A&E after sourcing a chicken phaal pie for my cob, water off a ducks back

6) gave myself IBS for breaking my chicken nuggets record after a skinful when Leicester beat Sevilla, 63 nuggets and 2 double cheeseburgers. Thought it was curtains, the next couple of days were harrowing. Nearly snuffed it.

 

 

[Trav Le Bleu]

I wonder what would happen to all the cows, sheep, chickens and pigs if everyone became vegan?

 

 

Oh yeah, that's right... They'd be slaughtered en masse because we'd no longer have a use for them and certainly couldn't afford to just let them roam wild (in which case most of them would die anyway).

 

Just saying. 

[Dahnsouff]

Does not matter what our personal preferences are, as ultimately our hand will be forced due to number of people. At approximately 1 acre per cow*, that is not a great return on your land.

 

* Other animals are available

[Big Dave]

7 minutes ago, Jattdogg said:

If they cost more it's a no brainer for those on fixed and/or low incomes etc.

I get that, but the cost difference is minimal. I would rather go without than not buy free range eggs.  Several retailers have also stopped selling eggs from caged hens due to the poor welfare standards (Waitrose, Morrison’s, M&S and I believe Co-op), and I think all major supermarkets have signed up to do this in the next few years.

[Dahnsouff]

2022-Pizza Hut All You Can Eat Buffet

[David Guiza]

1 minute ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

I wonder what would happen to all the cows, sheep, chickens and pigs if everyone became vegan?

 

 

Oh yeah, that's right... They'd be slaughtered en masse because we'd no longer have a use for them and certainly couldn't afford to just let them roam wild (in which case most of them would die anyway).

 

Just saying. 

I keep meaning to log out and stop looking at this topic as it's turned into a veggie v meat eater debate that all topics of these sorts do, but then I read things that drag me back in. One last reply for the road anyway. 

 

I've never really understood this argument. I think every vegan with a brain cell understands that would be the case, but since when is that a valid argument? That relies on the argument that being born to live an awful life and be slaughtered is better than no life for starters, which is rocky ground. I've always viewed that argument as the equivalent of arguing that prostitution should be opened out as a viable career opportunity because it creates jobs, or justifying slave breeding because folk need slaves. There are some justifiable arguments against veganism, but this aint one of 'em. 

[Milo]

3 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

The answer is obviously no. I don't tend to eat shite meat or fish so I'm largely confident in terms of processing and welfare.

 

Anyway, vegetarianism is weird. Fair play to vegans, they've set their stall out and are living by it, full respect for them. But can't be having vegetarians cos there's no reason to be vegetarian and not vegan.

 

Oh its cruel - why do you still consume dairy

Meat farming is bad for the environment - why do you still consume dairy

Meat is less healthy - why do you still consume dairy

There's disease in processing plants - that's why ovens exist

I don't like meat - yeah well I don't like apples but I don't feel the need to signal it to everyone by giving myself a special title. 

 

57 minutes ago, don_danbury said:

well she needs to become vegan if she wants to cut animal murdering out completely. as someone else said, if someone is a veggie because of the animal cruelty then it's pretty pointless. 

 

I don't really get the all or nothing extremism, tbh. 

 

The same logic would dictate that vegetarians should be hemp wearing, non-shoe leather, etc off-gridders. Otherwise whats the point.

 

Similarly, people who are anti slavery are likely quite happy to be using a phone or tablet that has components manufactured under forced labour, or wearing clothes that are made in Cambodian sweatshops, etc. Surely if you were against slavery you would banish all these from your life, otherwise whats the point?!

 

If you're against abuse of human rights then surely filling your car up with middle east petrol is against your principles, otherwise being against human rights abuses is pretty pointless! I really don't get the logic that you have to be all in for there to a point to your actions.

 

If some people want to eat less meat, for whatever reason, then that's probably a good thing. To be commended more than criticised.     

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

From the outside looking in there are far more pro's than con's here for you to go back to eating meat! I am very passionate about cooking appliances such as smokers, BBQ's, wood fired ovens (pizza) etc and this is the thing that always brings me back to cooking and eating meat in large and vast quantities. There's just very little excitement with cooking with vegetables.

   Yep - I've never considered myself vegetarian, just taking a break from meat for a while. I've got a 2kg brisket in the freezer that may well need to make an appearance soon 

 

Oh, and Vegetronic by Alexis Gauthier introduces a little excitement when cooking with vegetables.

[bmt]

8 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

I wonder what would happen to all the cows, sheep, chickens and pigs if everyone became vegan?

 

 

Oh yeah, that's right... They'd be slaughtered en masse because we'd no longer have a use for them and certainly couldn't afford to just let them roam wild (in which case most of them would die anyway).

 

Just saying. 

I don't think that's a great argument. The worlds average chicken stock is 19 billion, so there are currently 19 billion chickens alive. However, the average amount of chickens killed annually is 50 billion. So yes if everyone instantly was vegan a lot of the chicken stock would be killed, but in the long run it'd be a third of the amount of them killed annually.

 

Also people would probably eat the stock that was killed so it would be no worse.

[bmt]

3 minutes ago, Milo said:

 

 

I don't really get the all or nothing extremism, tbh. 

 

The same logic would dictate that vegetarians should be hemp wearing, non-shoe leather, etc off-gridders. Otherwise whats the point.

 

Similarly, people who are anti slavery are likely quite happy to be using a phone or tablet that has components manufactured under forced labour, or wearing clothes that are made in Cambodian sweatshops, etc. Surely if you were against slavery you would banish all these from your life, otherwise whats the point?!

 

If you're against abuse of human rights then surely filling your car up with middle east petrol is against your principles, otherwise being against human rights abuses is pretty pointless! I really don't get the logic that you have to be all in for there to a point to your actions.

 

If some people want to eat less meat, for whatever reason, then that's probably a good thing. To be commended more than criticised.     

 

Maybe when I made my earlier point I was a bit OTT but if you are against animals being killed you shouldn't turn a blind eye to the ones that are (my response was a direct reply to dairy industry not being bad for animals). Yes you can find a middle ground but for me it's a bit hypocritical.

 

As a self confessed hypocrite I too am trying to reduce my animal consumption, mainly for health and environmental reasons, so a similar argument could be levelled against me.

[RoboFox]

We try to do two days a week, meat-free as part of a conscious effort to cut down on consumption. 

 

If you know what you're doing, vegetarian dishes are absolutely bangin'. Super versatile and great for the wallet.

 

I'd also have a tasty spicy bean burger over some beef burgers, TBH. Absolutely sublime.

[Ollie93]

34 minutes ago, Jattdogg said:

If they cost more it's a no brainer for those on fixed and/or low incomes etc.

This whole argument really just comes down to money/price of meat and produce. I get that eating vegetarian is arguably cheaper if you just ate veg. But that would leave you nutrient deficient. There are certain amino acids that (unless adequately supplemented) you can only get sufficiently from meat (leucine for eg.) 

 

However, the demand for low cheap meat/eggs/dairy creates un-savoury production.

[don_danbury]

15 minutes ago, Milo said:

 

 

I don't really get the all or nothing extremism, tbh. 

 

The same logic would dictate that vegetarians should be hemp wearing, non-shoe leather, etc off-gridders. Otherwise whats the point.

 

Similarly, people who are anti slavery are likely quite happy to be using a phone or tablet that has components manufactured under forced labour, or wearing clothes that are made in Cambodian sweatshops, etc. Surely if you were against slavery you would banish all these from your life, otherwise whats the point?!

 

If you're against abuse of human rights then surely filling your car up with middle east petrol is against your principles, otherwise being against human rights abuses is pretty pointless! I really don't get the logic that you have to be all in for there to a point to your actions.

 

If some people want to eat less meat, for whatever reason, then that's probably a good thing. To be commended more than criticised.     

 

 

 

   Yep - I've never considered myself vegetarian, just taking a break from meat for a while. I've got a 2kg brisket in the freezer that may well need to make an appearance soon 

 

Oh, and Vegetronic by Alexis Gauthier introduces a little excitement when cooking with vegetables.

i get your points but being a veggie and being a vegan is hardly that much difference. if they can cut meat out then surely they can cut dairy out. i imagine most veggie people probably don't know about the dairy industry tbf. 

[Milo]

10 minutes ago, don_danbury said:

i get your points but being a veggie and being a vegan is hardly that much difference. if they can cut meat out then surely they can cut dairy out. i imagine most veggie people probably don't know about the dairy industry tbf. 

Mate, have you tasted vegan cheese??!! 

 

 

[nnfox]

I can't say that coronavirus has made me think twice.  We were, as a household, gradually reducing our meat intake.  To be honest this is driven mainly by environmental reasons.

 

I can see a time where the government will introduce a beef tax, and wouldn't be surprised if it's here before the decade's out.