Meat and Disease

[David Guiza]

As there seems to be increasing links between meat farms/factories/markets and coronavirus, both domestically and across the world, has your opinion on meat consumption changed at all, and would you consider giving meat up altogether if concrete evidence were found between the two? Do you think that our food standards are significantly better than places like China and consequently there's far less of an issue here? Perhaps you're aware of the risk, but nothing is worth giving up meat for? It's all hypothetical at this point, of course, but numerous studies predicted some sort of animal based outbreak prior to this, and have not ruled out future and perhaps even more deadly outbreaks from a similar source. 

 

I'm a veggie and try to eat vegan whenever I can, same with a few posters on here I think. I've only been veggie for about 5 years and there was certainly a time when I'd have laughed at the suggestion that I'd even consider it once or twice a week, but there's not really anything I miss about it now, particularly thanks to a huge increase in veggie/vegan alternatives in supermarkets/restaurants, cafes etc. 

 

This isn't a pressure group aimed at converting the masses, honest , I just thought it would make for an interesting topic. 

[Strokes]

9 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

As there seems to be increasing links between meat farms/factories/markets and coronavirus, both domestically and across the world, has your opinion on meat consumption changed at all, and would you consider giving meat up altogether if concrete evidence were found between the two? Do you think that our food standards are significantly better than places like China and consequently there's far less of an issue here? Perhaps you're aware of the risk, but nothing is worth giving up meat for? It's all hypothetical at this point, of course, but numerous studies predicted some sort of animal based outbreak prior to this, and have not ruled out future and perhaps even more deadly outbreaks from a similar source. 

 

I'm a veggie and try to eat vegan whenever I can, same with a few posters on here I think. I've only been veggie for about 5 years and there was certainly a time when I'd have laughed at the suggestion that I'd even consider it once or twice a week, but there's not really anything I miss about it now, particularly thanks to a huge increase in veggie/vegan alternatives in supermarkets/restaurants, cafes etc. 

 

This isn't a pressure group aimed at converting the masses, honest , I just thought it would make for an interesting topic. 

Happily give up all meat except pork, beef chicken and fish.

[Nalis]

I would like to fit more veggie and vegan meals into my diet but I just like meat too much to cut it out completely. Rightly or wrongly, Covid 19 hasnt changed anything for me.

[David Guiza]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Happily give up all meat except pork, beef chicken and fish.

[Suzie the Fox]

Perhaps naively (i honestly don't know) but i like to think our process from animal to shop is aLOT better than that of China's. 

 

Taking away the fact I absolutely love meat, my views have not been altered about eating it with this virus. I have friends who are Veggies and Vegans and i respect their choice and would not put them down on it, but for me it just wouldn't work  

[Innovindil]

12 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Happily give up all meat except pork, beef chicken and fish.

But Strokes.... The lamb? 

[jonthefox]

Sorry, but vegans are just generally weird.

[Innovindil]

But in answer to the op, no, not really. The working theory is the rona virus came from bat's. I don't eat bat. And our food standards have got to be better than china's tbh, they boil live dogs and eat a bunch of random shit no one else would touch. 

[Trumpet]

I’ve always assumed that cooking the meat to the right temperature should kill most bacteria / virus, the coronavirus being no different. 

 

Personally feel more at risk by having a takeaway in which the food is potentially handled and contaminated after the cooking process. 
 

I’d be happy to switch to a plant based “meat” if it tastes like meat and has the texture of meat.

Edited 22 June 2020 by Wet Trump

[yorkie1999]

Thing is, the cases in this country weren't to do with the meat carrying the virus, it was people working in close proximity to each other who passed the virus around. What if they had been working in a potato factory, would anyone give up chips?, doubt it.

[Samilktray]

I was vegetarian for about a year up until January this year. Quite enjoyed it and felt a lot better for it. I would like to go back to being vegetarian eventually but I do enjoy meat despite the fact I know it’s a bit grim. I don’t eat and will never eat pork though. 

[lcfc278]

41 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

As there seems to be increasing links between meat farms/factories/markets and coronavirus, both domestically and across the world, has your opinion on meat consumption changed at all, and would you consider giving meat up altogether if concrete evidence were found between the two? Do you think that our food standards are significantly better than places like China and consequently there's far less of an issue here? Perhaps you're aware of the risk, but nothing is worth giving up meat for? It's all hypothetical at this point, of course, but numerous studies predicted some sort of animal based outbreak prior to this, and have not ruled out future and perhaps even more deadly outbreaks from a similar source. 

 

I'm a veggie and try to eat vegan whenever I can, same with a few posters on here I think. I've only been veggie for about 5 years and there was certainly a time when I'd have laughed at the suggestion that I'd even consider it once or twice a week, but there's not really anything I miss about it now, particularly thanks to a huge increase in veggie/vegan alternatives in supermarkets/restaurants, cafes etc. 

 

This isn't a pressure group aimed at converting the masses, honest , I just thought it would make for an interesting topic. 

Increasing links between meat farms/factories and coronavirus? Can you please send us these links so we can see what you're talking about?

 

The rumours we've all heard is that the virus could have originated from wet markets in China with Bats and Pangolins mentioned. How/What are the links between meat farms and factories with Coronavirus?

 

Seems a strange thing to put out there with zero evidence, but here we go the guy's a vegan and hasn't probably mentioned it to anyone for a few days

[David Guiza]

41 minutes ago, lcfc278 said:

1. Increasing links between meat farms/factories and coronavirus? Can you please send us these links so we can see what you're talking about?

 

2. The rumours we've all heard is that the virus could have originated from wet markets in China with Bats and Pangolins mentioned. How/What are the links between meat farms and factories with Coronavirus?

 

3. Seems a strange thing to put out there with zero evidence, but here we go the guy's a vegan and hasn't probably mentioned it to anyone for a few days

1. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/revealed-meat-processing-plants-ideal-incubator-coronavirus/ 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-53105266

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53131765

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/19/three-meat-factories-in-england-and-wales-closed-over-coronavirus

 

https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/21/growing-global-appetite-meat-risk-future-spillover-pandemics/ 

 

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/4/22/21228158/coronavirus-pandemic-risk-factory-farming-meat

 

https://theconversation.com/bushmeat-could-cause-the-next-global-pandemic-136657

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johncumbers/2020/05/09/preventing-another-pandemic-might-be-as-simple-as-trying-alternative-meat/

 

https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/22/doctors-urge-uk-go-vegan-avoid-future-pandemic-12738682/

 

 

2. As above, they are seen as a breeding ground for the disease and potentially other bacteria too. 

 

 

3. 

 

Edited 22 June 2020 by David Guiza

[Guest the fox]

I am of the opinion that big fast food chains should go away (or at least regulated). The amount of meat that's being consumed/waisted by those parties is staggering and the need for lowering the costs above all will only result in inhuman treatment of animals and an unhealthy product. 

 

 

Plus, not every type of animal is meant to be consumed.

[Alf Bentley]

7 minutes ago, lcfc278 said:

Increasing links between meat farms/factories and coronavirus? Can you please send us these links so we can see what you're talking about?

 

The rumours we've all heard is that the virus could have originated from wet markets in China with Bats and Pangolins mentioned. How/What are the links between meat farms and factories with Coronavirus?

 

Seems a strange thing to put out there with zero evidence, but here we go the guy's a vegan and hasn't probably mentioned it to anyone for a few days

 

I'd guess that @David Guiza is referring to outbreaks like the one at a meat processing plant in Germany, where 1000 employees have just tested positive for Covid:

https://www.euronews.com/2020/06/21/german-covid-19-infection-rate-jumps-to-1-79-after-meat-plant-outbreak

 

But, unless I'm misunderstanding things, he's mixing 2 different issues with live animal markets and meat processing plants.

My understanding is that the outbreak at the meat processing plants were caused by lots of people spending lots of time working close together - similar to other workplaces, nightclubs, football matches, demos, beaches etc.

 

I've not heard any suggestion that the German Covid outbreak spread from meat - just human-to-human transmission in that particular setting? 

 

I have no axe to grind in this. I'm not a veggie/vegan (though rarely eat red meat), see arguments for vegetarianism/veganism, but frankly it's just not a priority for me. Sorry if that makes me a bad man!

 

If I'm right that it's human-to-human transmission, outbreaks in meat processing plants could be an argument for different working conditions as much as vegetarianism/veganism? 

 

[lcfc278]

2 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

1. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/revealed-meat-processing-plants-ideal-incubator-coronavirus/ 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-53105266

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53131765

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/19/three-meat-factories-in-england-and-wales-closed-over-coronavirus

 

https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/21/growing-global-appetite-meat-risk-future-spillover-pandemics/ 

 

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/4/22/21228158/coronavirus-pandemic-risk-factory-farming-meat

 

https://theconversation.com/bushmeat-could-cause-the-next-global-pandemic-136657

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johncumbers/2020/05/09/preventing-another-pandemic-might-be-as-simple-as-trying-alternative-meat/

 

https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/22/doctors-urge-uk-go-vegan-avoid-future-pandemic-12738682/

 

 

2. As above, they are seen as a breading ground for the disease and potentially other bacteria too. 

 

 

3. 

 

After reading the majority of these links it seems clear that the reasons behind these particular outbreaks (in factories in the UK) is due to social distancing issues, a lot of people on production lines, working at pace making it difficult to wear face coverings and also break rooms/environments being difficult to social distance. It seems more about the production environment than anything else which, for me, hows no link between the actual product they're working with.

 

Your post implies that there is a link between the actual meat from meat factories/farms and the virus which is not mentioned anywhere in these links, only the actual environments which clearly need to be looked at, but as food is so important it's not like they can shut down for a month to reorganise the floorplans etc. in one go, it is going to be a long and slow process.

 

The real issue here is the poor standards in food markets in places like China where they are breeding grounds for all sorts of bacteria and diseases. This is mentioned is some of your links but I don't think turning vegan is a solution, improving factory environment standards and stricter hygeine standards abroad is what we need.

[Mike Oxlong]

13 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

1. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/revealed-meat-processing-plants-ideal-incubator-coronavirus/ 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-53105266

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53131765

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/19/three-meat-factories-in-england-and-wales-closed-over-coronavirus

 

https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/21/growing-global-appetite-meat-risk-future-spillover-pandemics/ 

 

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/4/22/21228158/coronavirus-pandemic-risk-factory-farming-meat

 

https://theconversation.com/bushmeat-could-cause-the-next-global-pandemic-136657

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johncumbers/2020/05/09/preventing-another-pandemic-might-be-as-simple-as-trying-alternative-meat/

 

https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/22/doctors-urge-uk-go-vegan-avoid-future-pandemic-12738682/

 

 

2. As above, they are seen as a breading ground for the disease and potentially other bacteria too. 

 

 

3. 

 

Yeast infections are a particular issue I understand 

[davieG]

I find myself eating less meat than I use to but can't see a time when i'll eat no meat or fish.

 

Even if it was the case that these virus's start off with a transfer to humans considering they are then spread human to human you would need the whole world to stop eating meat as surely as long as there is just one person eating meat then we're all still at risk.

[AKCJ]

Try and have 3 vegetarian nights a week.

 

Purely to eat well but I find it weirdly enjoyable finding tasty vegetarian/vegan meals.

[Ric Flair]

More than happy to die myself than give up meat to live longer, vegan meals are about as exciting as zoom quizzes.

[David Guiza]

6 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I'd guess that @David Guiza is referring to outbreaks like the one at a meat processing plant in Germany, where 1000 employees have just tested positive for Covid:

https://www.euronews.com/2020/06/21/german-covid-19-infection-rate-jumps-to-1-79-after-meat-plant-outbreak

 

But, unless I'm misunderstanding things, he's mixing 2 different issues with live animal markets and meat processing plants.

My understanding is that the outbreak at the meat processing plants were caused by lots of people spending lots of time working close together - similar to other workplaces, nightclubs, football matches, demos, beaches etc.

 

I've not heard any suggestion that the German Covid outbreak spread from meat - just human-to-human transmission in that particular setting? 

 

I have no axe to grind in this. I'm not a veggie/vegan (though rarely eat red meat), see arguments for vegetarianism/veganism, but frankly it's just not a priority for me. Sorry if that makes me a bad man!

 

If I'm right that it's human-to-human transmission, outbreaks in meat processing plants could be an argument for different working conditions as much as vegetarianism/veganism? 

 

Suspect you may have replied before my latter response, but the issue I was raising was the fact that meat factories and the like have been likened to incubators for the disease. But yes, of course the factory conditions is something that needs to be addressed too, both from an ethical point of view and to prevent the spread of the/any disease. 

 

Just now, Mike Oxlong said:

Yeast infections are a particular issue I understand 

 Genuinely had no idea that 'breading' was a word until you pointed that out, every day is a school day 

 

1 minute ago, lcfc278 said:

After reading the majority of these links it seems clear that the reasons behind these particular outbreaks (in factories in the UK) is due to social distancing issues, a lot of people on production lines, working at pace making it difficult to wear face coverings and also break rooms/environments being difficult to social distance. It seems more about the production environment than anything else which, for me, hows no link between the actual product they're working with.

 

Your post implies that there is a link between the actual meat from meat factories/farms and the virus which is not mentioned anywhere in these links, only the actual environments which clearly need to be looked at, but as food is so important it's not like they can shut down for a month to reorganise the floorplans etc. in one go, it is going to be a long and slow process.

 

The real issue here is the poor standards in food markets in places like China where they are breeding grounds for all sorts of bacteria and diseases. This is mentioned is some of your links but I don't think turning vegan is a solution, improving factory environment standards and stricter hygeine standards abroad is what we need.

As above, in response to Alf, some articles make reference to meat factories effectively acting as incubator for the disease. Sure that's largely down to the environment of the factories themselves, but it's also down to what meat is. Some of the articles also have experts suggesting that further outbreaks are likely from meat too. 

 

The idea of the topic was just to see if people had changed their opinions on meat consumption and would they change further if concrete evidence was found, I didn't advocate that the whole world goes vegan. Despite the stereotype, I'm not somebody who mentions by dietary habits to every Tom, Dick and Harry, I just thought it was relevant given that the topic was literally about diets. The vast majority of my friends and family are meat eaters and it doesn't bother me in the slightest, I'd be quite the hypocrite to call people out for eating meat when I did so for the first 23/24 years of my life. 

 

I didn't want the topic to turn into an argument between veggies/vegans and meat eaters, but rather a discussion on whether one's perception has or will change as a result of this 'new world' that has been born out of the post lockdown world. 

[FoxesDeb]

I find myself enjoying meat less these days, although I have no idea why. I'm not sure how easy it would be to cut it out completely, and I could never go without dairy. 

 

If there was a confirmed link between meat eating and coronavirus I like to think I would give it up. Having said that though I'm fully aware of other health risks involved in eating meat and still do... 

[yorkie1999]

Well, after reading all the science, i've gone right off pangolin burgers. Cheers.

[Trumpet]

I work for a food manufacturer and I think the general consensus is that meat consumption will reduce in the future and meat alternative consumption will increase. There are a lot of big retailers showing more and more interest in it.

 

There are loads of environmental issues surrounding farming and rearing cattle to produce meat. The Chinese have in the last few decades really got on board with refrigeration within the home which has increased their meat consumption ten fold - to a point in which U.K. pork had been supplying Chinese demands during the recent swine fever outbreak in China.

 

As I’ve mentioned previously, if it looks like meat, feels like meat and tastes like it then I’m more than happy to switch. I’ve heard some of the stuff being produced ticks all of those boxes, it’s just expensive to produce at the moment. I’d expect the balance to tip in the next 10 years where plant based “meat” is cheaper than actual meat and a lot more people will be consuming it.

 

Until then, I bloody love meat.

Edited 22 June 2020 by Wet Trump

[Milo]

This conversation is probably worthy of it's own thread, without mixing it in with Coronavirus.

 

Viruses are generally not foodborne, so there is not a particular risk with eating meat. Some viruses can be associated with certain foods - the most common cases of viral contamination that I deal with are from Norovirus in oysters and very very occasionally Hep A.

 

The other consideration to keep in mind is that cooking food to the correct temperature will pretty much ensure that you won't get sick. 

 

My involvement with meat processing has been mixed, some places are good and some places are pretty awful - a couple of chicken places I've been in would seriously test your resolve about whether to continue to eat it or give it up. LTTC meat processing is pretty well controlled and have high standards. These are places that have to jump through hoops to sell items like burgers that can be sold cooked to medium rare, etc...the problem is that Joe Bloggs cafe sees that a place down the road can sell medium cooked burgers, so he'll give it a try with his Costco burgers that haven't been through such a controlled process.

 

I gave up eating meat in January - just to see if I could do it or not. Not really missed it, tbh. (Dishoom's jackfruit Biryani is an absolute hit. Heart of palm crabcakes and Tom Kerridge's sweet potato and black bean burritos are both easy crowd pleasers)! 

 

One thing I didn't really bank on is that I now can't really use any of my cooking equipment that I enjoyed so much. I have a sous vide machine and pretty fabulous smoker sitting idle. I used to love messing about with smoking different meats, trying overnight smokes or long sous vide low temperature cooking. I can't really see a 24 hour sous vide aubergine, or low temperature smoked kale holding quite the same appeal. 

 

I might re-introduce some meat back into my diet - but probably only as additions to meals rather than the main event. I used to eat chorizo with most things (I made a vegan version which tastes fab, but doesn't crisp up so isn't any good for cooking). Same with pancetta, I may start adding that into dishes - and it's that time of year to smoke the odd brisket, of course!!

 

     

 

 

 

 

 

      

Edited 22 June 2020 by Milo