Meat and Disease

[bmt]

1 hour ago, Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot said:

This idea that if one person stopped eating meat then 20 animals a year are saved or 500 people then however many tens of thousands of animals are saved, its just not true. If half a billion people stopped eating meat then yeah there'd be much, much less demand and not as much would get made in the first place. But all one person becoming a veggie achieves is a few more packs of sausages in the whoops Isle of asda or being thrown out when they go off. 

In which case vegans should be telling everyone else to become vegan  

[yorkie1999]

40 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

Nobody has claimed that it is meat carrying the virus, have they? If that's how my post comes across then I apologise but for me there are two issues. The first issue is in terms of the factories and their conditions. We tend to hide our heads in the sand when it comes to food standards and meat in this country on the basis that because we're not as bad as China or whoever, we don't have an issue. Clearly the conditions are helping keep the disease alive and spread in certain situations. Were you to eat high quality and organic meat, as @Kopfkino and others have alluded to, then it's far less of an issue. I would however guess that the vast majority of meat consumption in this country isn't in that form though, and it is in fact from the sort of factories that have had these outbreaks. Were the vast majority of meat eaters to eat local, good quality, meat and in less quantity then you would still have an ethical debate, but both the disease risk and the impact on the environment would be substantially lowered.

 

The second issue is the amount of disease that animals carry, which links back to the first point. According to this article - https://www.forbes.com/sites/johncumbers/2020/05/09/preventing-another-pandemic-might-be-as-simple-as-trying-alternative-meat/#1c47d7372c33, which cites this study - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3367616/ - three quarters of all human emerging diseases have come about from zoonotic pathogens (animal to human), including swine fever, mad cow disease and ebola. I'm far from an expert on the subject, but lessening meat consumption would surely be a positive in preventing that? 

 

I appreciate it's not for everyone, and I'm not here to change your mind but merely to have a discussion . 

I'm not an expert on chinese meat production, but i know they import most of their beef and pork, so the quality of chinese beef and pork is more reliable on the country that it imports from. Coronavirus' come from bats and the covid-19 virus has managed to migrate over to humans, that's nothing to do with how clean meat processing plants or meat markets are, that's evolution. I don't think you can get much more organic than a bat, not unless they've started grain feeding them in bat processing farms. The problem comes from china's desire to eat wild animals and maybe if they started eating non-organic animals, we wouldn't get the viruses that are associated with wild animals. Being vegan won't stop the spread of natural viruses, if we got rid of animals, viruses would just mutate to live in plants, like carrots and brussel sprouts.

[Strokes]

3 hours ago, foxfanazer said:

You're a better man than me, I love a bit of lamb

A good bit of lamb is great but I can rarely be arsed as it’s too easy to overcook.

[Trav Le Bleu]

2 hours ago, David Guiza said:

I keep meaning to log out and stop looking at this topic as it's turned into a veggie v meat eater debate that all topics of these sorts do, but then I read things that drag me back in. One last reply for the road anyway. 

 

I've never really understood this argument. I think every vegan with a brain cell understands that would be the case, but since when is that a valid argument? That relies on the argument that being born to live an awful life and be slaughtered is better than no life for starters, which is rocky ground. I've always viewed that argument as the equivalent of arguing that prostitution should be opened out as a viable career opportunity because it creates jobs, or justifying slave breeding because folk need slaves. There are some justifiable arguments against veganism, but this aint one of 'em. 

You seriously don't think that cows and sheep and pigs wouldn't become a very rare sight? Pigs might adapt easiest to a wild lifestyle, but they would become hugely unpopular if they were truly wild in large numbers. Cows and sheep are more reliant on human management. Some hardier breeds might adapt to wild living, but many really need supplementary care.

 

Liking the treatment of animals is like slavery is wonky thinking, when you think that slaves are people who are treated like animals. So when we treat animals like humans, then we'll all be treated like animals.

 

I'm sorry, but animals aren't humans.

 

I have no problems with people wanting to be vegetarian or vegan by preference or for health reasons, but if it's simply because poor liddle widens, you've watched too many Disney cartoons.

 

That being said, there are of course important issues to be addressed with animal welfare and the impact of farming on the environment.

 

As usual, it's moderation that is the answer.

[Manwell Pablo]

6 hours ago, Izzy said:

My wife’s vegetarian but not vegan. She’s vegetarian because she’s against murdering animals which is fair enough.

Shes not vegan because she likes cheese, milk and eggs and as far as I know, animals aren’t killed in that process.

I guess that’s the reason some people choose to be vegetarian and not vegan.

I presume someone’s corrected you on animals not being killed as part of those process’s Izzy but if they haven’t by the time I’ve got to the end of this thread I’ll edit this post 😂

[ALC Fox]

I think it'll be much better for our health and the environment if we eat less meat.

 

The question about new mutations of diseases, I think, is more a question of humanity encroaching into wild spaces, and that goes for exotic meat consumption and bushmeat consumption, as well as clearing vast wild areas for such as things as soy and palm oil production.

 

The problem isn't restricted to meat  consumption, nor is it restricted to one continent.

 

AIDS, Sars, Mers, Zika, Ebola, and Covid-19 are all examples of diseases that have made the jump as a result of humanity encroaching into wild spaces.

 

While the market is there for pangolin, bat and palm oil, these diseases will keep coming. Imagine if the next one had the fatality rate of Mers (34.4%) and the spread of Covid-19. It doesn't bear thinking about.

 

Things need to be done. Experts have been saying it for years and Covid-19 is our wake-up call.

[Manwell Pablo]

@Izzy see most people have focused on the cows so this is something this is involved in the production of eggs.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_culling

 

So that’s one chick a year for every person on earth.

 

I think they are working on a way to just sterilise the eggs which pretty close to being rolled out though.

Edited 22 June 2020 by Manwell Pablo

[Webbo]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

A good bit of lamb is great but I can rarely be arsed as it’s too easy to overcook.

Slow cook it like you would shredded pork. Delicious.

[Ross-Kemp]

4 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Can this be a confession thread for all meat eaters who carry with them some truly despicable acts of meat consumption?

 

1) them grotesque sausage rolls from the corner shop called Pete's or something. Pastry is always the absolute bins and falling apart and the meat nearly bounces out your mouth when you eat it. Usually contains ketchup or something equally as synthetic as well

2) tinned burgers, once had them for a laugh. Weirdly enjoyed them, have had way more tins since than is acceptable

3) beans and little sausages - at the centre of many a comfort meal. Feel really guilty for getting my 4 year old obsessed with them, we even have a beans and little sausages song we sing and I put 2 tins in his stocking from santa

4) I eat in excess of 20 pepperami's a month, my record is 21 in a day  - had hallucinations and breath like a dragon. Missus nearly left me

5) I am the creator of National Pie Cob Day at my work - started out just a couple of geezers going the chip shop and getting a beef & onion pie and a cob and eating it back in the canteen. It's a different beast now, competition is very fierce and the number of people involved has risen significantly. Even got a director involved. Last year I nearly ended up in A&E after sourcing a chicken phaal pie for my cob, water off a ducks back

6) gave myself IBS for breaking my chicken nuggets record after a skinful when Leicester beat Sevilla, 63 nuggets and 2 double cheeseburgers. Thought it was curtains, the next couple of days were harrowing. Nearly snuffed it.

 

 

I ****ing love you. 

[Manwell Pablo]

5 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Can this be a confession thread for all meat eaters who carry with them some truly despicable acts of meat consumption?

 

1) them grotesque sausage rolls from the corner shop called Pete's or something. Pastry is always the absolute bins and falling apart and the meat nearly bounces out your mouth when you eat it. Usually contains ketchup or something equally as synthetic as well

2) tinned burgers, once had them for a laugh. Weirdly enjoyed them, have had way more tins since than is acceptable

3) beans and little sausages - at the centre of many a comfort meal. Feel really guilty for getting my 4 year old obsessed with them, we even have a beans and little sausages song we sing and I put 2 tins in his stocking from santa

4) I eat in excess of 20 pepperami's a month, my record is 21 in a day  - had hallucinations and breath like a dragon. Missus nearly left me

5) I am the creator of National Pie Cob Day at my work - started out just a couple of geezers going the chip shop and getting a beef & onion pie and a cob and eating it back in the canteen. It's a different beast now, competition is very fierce and the number of people involved has risen significantly. Even got a director involved. Last year I nearly ended up in A&E after sourcing a chicken phaal pie for my cob, water off a ducks back

6) gave myself IBS for breaking my chicken nuggets record after a skinful when Leicester beat Sevilla, 63 nuggets and 2 double cheeseburgers. Thought it was curtains, the next couple of days were harrowing. Nearly snuffed it.

 

 

Uttery incredible post.

[yorkie1999]

5 hours ago, Strokes said:

A good bit of lamb is great but I can rarely be arsed as it’s too easy to overcook.

Lamb is quality, not as chewy as beef or as bland as chicken, but belly pork on the bbq straight from the farm and an inch thick is what dreams are made of, no one can say that about a quorn sausage.

Edited 22 June 2020 by yorkie1999

[Strokes]

Just now, yorkie1999 said:

Lamb is the quality, not as chewy as beef or as bland as chicken, but belly pork on the bbq straight from the farm and an inch thick is what dreams are made of, no one can say that about a quorn sausage.

I love a slow cooked brisket myself, for me it’s unbeatable. Apart from the duration, it’s not complex to get it right on the BBQ.

[yorkie1999]

9 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I love a slow cooked brisket myself, for me it’s unbeatable. Apart from the duration, it’s not complex to get it right on the BBQ.

I always thought you smoked brisket. If you're into bbqing, try this, slice the fat and rub sea salt into it. Takes a good couple of hours but it's worth it. Bigger the better.

https://www.kimbersfarmshop.co.uk/gloucester-old-spot-pork/belly-pork/

Edited 22 June 2020 by yorkie1999

[Strokes]

13 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

I always thought you smoked brisket. If you're into bbqing, try this, slice the fat and rub sea salt into it. Takes a good couple of hours but it's worth it. Bigger the better.

https://www.kimbersfarmshop.co.uk/gloucester-old-spot-pork/belly-pork/

It’s not a cold smoke, so it’s not incorrect to say either.

[Jattdogg]

10 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Can this be a confession thread for all meat eaters who carry with them some truly despicable acts of meat consumption?

 

1) them grotesque sausage rolls from the corner shop called Pete's or something. Pastry is always the absolute bins and falling apart and the meat nearly bounces out your mouth when you eat it. Usually contains ketchup or something equally as synthetic as well

2) tinned burgers, once had them for a laugh. Weirdly enjoyed them, have had way more tins since than is acceptable

3) beans and little sausages - at the centre of many a comfort meal. Feel really guilty for getting my 4 year old obsessed with them, we even have a beans and little sausages song we sing and I put 2 tins in his stocking from santa

4) I eat in excess of 20 pepperami's a month, my record is 21 in a day  - had hallucinations and breath like a dragon. Missus nearly left me

5) I am the creator of National Pie Cob Day at my work - started out just a couple of geezers going the chip shop and getting a beef & onion pie and a cob and eating it back in the canteen. It's a different beast now, competition is very fierce and the number of people involved has risen significantly. Even got a director involved. Last year I nearly ended up in A&E after sourcing a chicken phaal pie for my cob, water off a ducks back

6) gave myself IBS for breaking my chicken nuggets record after a skinful when Leicester beat Sevilla, 63 nuggets and 2 double cheeseburgers. Thought it was curtains, the next couple of days were harrowing. Nearly snuffed it.

 

 

Post of the day

[Christoph]

Have been implementing more vegetarian meals into my weekly diet. Where as before I  would have meat every single dinner, we now have one or two vegetarian dinners a week. Usually revolves around Indian food because only Indians seem to know how to do nice vegetarian food. Not interested in veggie sausages with mash. 

[Strokes]

14 minutes ago, Christoph said:

Have been implementing more vegetarian meals into my weekly diet. Where as before I  would have meat every single dinner, we now have one or two vegetarian dinners a week. Usually revolves around Indian food because only Indians seem to know how to do nice vegetarian food. Not interested in veggie sausages with mash. 

Really?

I love Italian, Greek and Spanish vegetarian food too.

Think Risotto, lasagna, bruschetta, ravioli, fitters, Dakos, Dolmades, Briam, Tortilla de Patata, Potato Bravas, vegetarian paella, Gazpacho etc.

Indian is great but there are loads of cracking meat free dishes.

[Strokes]

19 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Can this be a confession thread for all meat eaters who carry with them some truly despicable acts of meat consumption?

 

1) them grotesque sausage rolls from the corner shop called Pete's or something. Pastry is always the absolute bins and falling apart and the meat nearly bounces out your mouth when you eat it. Usually contains ketchup or something equally as synthetic as well

2) tinned burgers, once had them for a laugh. Weirdly enjoyed them, have had way more tins since than is acceptable

3) beans and little sausages - at the centre of many a comfort meal. Feel really guilty for getting my 4 year old obsessed with them, we even have a beans and little sausages song we sing and I put 2 tins in his stocking from santa

4) I eat in excess of 20 pepperami's a month, my record is 21 in a day  - had hallucinations and breath like a dragon. Missus nearly left me

5) I am the creator of National Pie Cob Day at my work - started out just a couple of geezers going the chip shop and getting a beef & onion pie and a cob and eating it back in the canteen. It's a different beast now, competition is very fierce and the number of people involved has risen significantly. Even got a director involved. Last year I nearly ended up in A&E after sourcing a chicken phaal pie for my cob, water off a ducks back

6) gave myself IBS for breaking my chicken nuggets record after a skinful when Leicester beat Sevilla, 63 nuggets and 2 double cheeseburgers. Thought it was curtains, the next couple of days were harrowing. Nearly snuffed it.

 

 

I love how you are both shameful and proud of how utterly appalling this is 

 

[Christoph]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

Really?

I love Italian, Greek and Spanish vegetarian food too.

Think Risotto, lasagna, bruschetta, ravioli, fitters, Dakos, Dolmades, Briam, Tortilla de Patata, Potato Bravas, vegetarian paella, Gazpacho etc.

Indian is great but there are loads of cracking meat free dishes.

 

Not massive fan on pasta, lasagna etc. always makes me feel bloated after ive eaten it. Some of the stuff you've mentioned I will eat but a lot of the list you've mentioned i'm not mad on or would just prefer the meat version e.g. paella.  i just personally prefer Indian food for vegetarian meals.  

 

I've gone through my whole life eating meat at dinner time so i still find it weird eating a vegetarian dinner. I prefer the fact meat makes me feel fuller for longer compared to vegetarian dinners. But i am getting used to reducing my meat intake. I certainly dont eat nearly as much red meat as i used to. 

[whoareyaaa]

think i could live off fish alone in terms of meat but with the amount of shit in the ocean im not so sure

[Dahnsouff]

Figured this is the right place for this?  

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coleen-rooney-rebekah-vardy-high-court-wagatha-christie-libel-football-wives-a4477101.html

[Focks]

I thought this was a topic about my local kebab shop!

[fuchsntf]

On 22/06/2020 at 11:30, Alf Bentley said:

 

I'd guess that @David Guiza is referring to outbreaks like the one at a meat processing plant in Germany, where 1000 employees have just tested positive for Covid:

https://www.euronews.com/2020/06/21/german-covid-19-infection-rate-jumps-to-1-79-after-meat-plant-outbreak

 

But, unless I'm misunderstanding things, he's mixing 2 different issues with live animal markets and meat processing plants.

My understanding is that the outbreak at the meat processing plants were caused by lots of people spending lots of time working close together - similar to other workplaces, nightclubs, football matches, demos, beaches etc.

 

I've not heard any suggestion that the German Covid outbreak spread from meat - just human-to-human transmission in that particular setting? 

 

I have no axe to grind in this. I'm not a veggie/vegan (though rarely eat red meat), see arguments for vegetarianism/veganism, but frankly it's just not a priority for me. Sorry if that makes me a bad man!

 

If I'm right that it's human-to-human transmission, outbreaks in meat processing plants could be an argument for different working conditions as much as vegetarianism/veganism? 

 

Plus the slavery Type of Wages and Living conditions the Foreign workers are being asked to Live in.

Plus very cleverly the actually Meat markets are not their employers,but brought in by 3rd Party Contracts agents....

Its disgusting and its happening all around Europe...The richtest Part of Western Europe, dropping Wages below Minimum wage!!!

Usually where Work councils or Unions are Not around....In a Country like Federal Germany,you cant say the Local politicians wouldnt know.

 

Ps...Shows again the EU Commission are Falling in their duties & remit..!!!

 

Every Single Time the EU has had Big problems/issues on the table...they prove they are Not up to it....or corrupt!!

Edited 25 June 2020 by fuchsntf

[JonnyBoy]

I'm doing veganuary for the sake of losing some christmas timber. You do feel great on it, more energy and don't feel sluggish and tired after meal times and don't need a coffee to sh*t in the mornings. I'm doing it properly so none of this meat alternative take-away style foods that are just as bad. 

 

Only downside is planning and food shop about 30% more expensive 

[Dr The Singh]

I eat alot of meat and veg meals.

 

With meat I only eat ethically killed meat so I don't eat kosher or halal.  I only buy really good quality meat and avoid supermarket stuff.