2020/21 Under 23's, U19's, Development ... thread

[Foxy-Lady]

8 minutes ago, davieG said:

What's going to happen to the guys on loan, are any of them U23? I guess it guarantees them and any over decent ones, if there are any will go on loan if their not in the 1st team squad. Playing in the 2nd tier will be no good for them.

 

Might even be better for their careers if they moved on.

KDH, Wright, Eppiah are all U23 (Knight & Iversen are 23) but i suspect they would have been be loaned out again next season anyway or possibly in with our first team squad (KDH?)

Interesting to see what happens to Tavares, Lashebela and a few others in the U23s next season

 

I suspect you are right that 2nd tier will not be a good enough stretch to develop the level of players we need and more of them may need to be loaned out....but i hope that is the way the club is evolving anyway as it is better for all concerned if the most talented are continually stretched in their development.....regardless of what age they are 

 

[Kilworthfox]

11 hours ago, Foxy-Lady said:

well if it doesn't happen now....it NEVER will!

 

Imagine trying to recruit top players 18-23 with the enticement that, despite all our resources and world class training facilities, we are not even good enough to be in the top tier of Academy Football...!  

 

Seen it coming for years...what a f****** shambles!

 

I don't see the recruitment being an issue at any age. Players will go to clubs for money or opportunity, which will supersede div 1 or 2 football.

I'd say the loss of prestige within the academy would be felt at the very top of the club, and hopefully... many questions will be asked why this has happened, and why both teams are struggling? As we live in a rich area for talented footballers!

 

What the most important metric is: The value returned, for the investments made, that the club can quantify?

The best example is Harvey Barnes, been at the club for a decade and is a first team regular. That is why the Academy exists, that is why almost all of the academy staff are employed.

 

However for every Harvey Barnes over that decade, how many have not made the progression steps over that period? There will be many reasons, most not the clubs fault!

 

Now there will be roughly 16 per age group. There are 8 age groups, then there are 10 years... that is 1300 exceptionally gifted young footballers that the club has signed! (Not just seen or attended a session, weather it be development or elite) Signed! A coach has essentially signed off on & said "I can develop this player, this player has a chance of becoming a valuable asset to this football club".

 

Now in fairness there may be, if you are "very" fortunate, have 3 or 4 players maximum, who will be considered players with real potential, who could represent the club at the Championship or Premier League level. Then there will be players judged professionals but not at the higher levels, but still a professional worth a financial value, recent example at random would be Josh Knight.

 

Over the last 10 years, how many have actually ended the pathway, where they were supposed to? If we can get to 20 players who have represented the club from the Academy I'd say that was very good going, if we can name another 20 Leicester have received funds for and they have had a career, again that would be very good. If you cant get over half this amount, then to answer the original question "The value returned, for the investments made, that the club can quantify?" the Academy is not returning the value for the investment, irrespective of finances! I say that because yes we can sell Chilwell (Signed from from Rushden & Diamonds aged 11 for £1,000) for £45 Million, & that all justifies running the Academy over the decade, but what about the other top 5% - 10% of signed players?

[An Sionnach]

Whenever I support Knight, Hamza,  KDH etc.on here ,players who have been with the club many years , I get told " not good enough for P.L.football" whilst 18 y.o French kids are just what we need for our future. Young players in our development squads  read these comments and probably think ,what's the point I am never going to get anywhere here. Chilwell almost certainly read the hundreds of pages of personal attacks and that must have been a factor in his departure. He is a flawed player but if the attacks get personal that hurts. There is far too much of a blame game and younger players are less resilient to attack. Support our development players and that will feed down to our age group players and make them think they have a future here with us.

[Webbo]

I seem to remember when we played Man U earlier this season it was mentioned that they been promoted that year, I certainly don't remember playing them the year before. 

 

In all honesty which division the youth team play in isn't that important, obviously you prefer the top division, but it isn't the end of the world. 

[Ric Flair]

@Kilworthfox may I applaud you for your insight in recent weeks in this thread. Hugely appreciated

[Kilworthfox]

4 minutes ago, An Sionnach said:

Whenever I support Knight, Hamza,  KDH etc.on here ,players who have been with the club many years , I get told " not good enough for P.L.football" whilst 18 y.o French kids are just what we need for our future. Young players in our development squads  read these comments and probably think ,what's the point I am never going to get anywhere here. Chilwell almost certainly read the hundreds of pages of personal attacks and that must have been a factor in his departure. He is a flawed player but if the attacks get personal that hurts. There is far too much of a blame game and younger players are less resilient to attack. Support our development players and that will feed down to our age group players and make them think they have a future here with us.

If any player is that weak that they are that effected by comments written by fans, then they'd never make it in the real life competitiveness of professional football! Imagine being upset by a comment on here, compared to abuse at away games like Stoke, Burnley, Millwall, or another horrid fan base, I'd rather they wilt in front of their computer, than on the pitch.

 

I cant believe you think this is a realistic possibility.

[UniFox21]

2 minutes ago, An Sionnach said:

Whenever I support Knight, Hamza,  KDH etc.on here ,players who have been with the club many years , I get told " not good enough for P.L.football" whilst 18 y.o French kids are just what we need for our future. Young players in our development squads  read these comments and probably think ,what's the point I am never going to get anywhere here. Chilwell almost certainly read the hundreds of pages of personal attacks and that must have been a factor in his departure. He is a flawed player but if the attacks get personal that hurts. There is far too much of a blame game and younger players are less resilient to attack. Support our development players and that will feed down to our age group players and make them think they have a future here with us.

The French player who had been playing week in week out for the current team top of ligue 1? If a development squad player reads the forum and suddenly gets the impression they'll never make it here, they're in the wrong career, and madly wrong given none of us pick the team. 

 

Tbf I'm pretty sure you're the same poster who wanted George Hirst started over Vardy? If the player was good enough, they'd get a chance either in training or in the squad. Us Doubting their ability is nothing against them. Every player gets their share of stick, it comes with the game. And I'm sorry Ben Chilwell did not leave this club due to people slagging him off on FT, frankly ridiculous to suggest that. Did you not read the abuse he got from Chelsea fans before and after he'd signed? 

 

[Kilworthfox]

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I seem to remember when we played Man U earlier this season it was mentioned that they been promoted that year, I certainly don't remember playing them the year before. 

 

In all honesty which division the youth team play in isn't that important, obviously you prefer the top division, but it isn't the end of the world. 

Man Utd have massively struggled since the rise of Man CIty locally in their recruitment. This effects the quality of all age groups. 

[moore_94]

2 minutes ago, Kilworthfox said:

If any player is that weak that they are that effected by comments written by fans, then they'd never make it in the real life competitiveness of professional football! Imagine being upset by a comment on here, compared to abuse at away games like Stoke, Burnley, Millwall, or another horrid fan base, I'd rather they wilt in front of their computer, than on the pitch.

 

I cant believe you think this is a realistic possibility.

I mean Chilwell ended up too scared to take a throw in against Millwall, wouldn’t surprise me if he had a cry after reading some of the comments about him on here 

 

10 minutes ago, An Sionnach said:

Whenever I support Knight, Hamza,  KDH etc.on here ,players who have been with the club many years , I get told " not good enough for P.L.football" whilst 18 y.o French kids are just what we need for our future. Young players in our development squads  read these comments and probably think ,what's the point I am never going to get anywhere here. Chilwell almost certainly read the hundreds of pages of personal attacks and that must have been a factor in his departure. He is a flawed player but if the attacks get personal that hurts. There is far too much of a blame game and younger players are less resilient to attack. Support our development players and that will feed down to our age group players and make them think they have a future here with us.

Highly doubt what some people post on here had any influence on his choice to leave for Chelsea

 

It was more likely the chance to play for a bigger club, in the Champions League, with a better chance at trophies, and a massive wage packet each month

[Kilworthfox]

1 minute ago, moore_94 said:

I mean Chilwell ended up too scared to take a throw in against Millwall, wouldn’t surprise me if he had a cry after reading some of the comments about him on here 

 

Highly doubt what some people post on here had any influence on his choice to leave for Chelsea

 

It was more likely the chance to play for a bigger club, in the Champions League, with a better chance at trophies, and a massive wage packet each month

Please see Kante & Drinkwater!

[Kilworthfox]

12 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

@Kilworthfox may I applaud you for your insight in recent weeks in this thread. Hugely appreciated

Ask me a question, i'll answer as best I can 

[Aus Fox]

If we qualify for the Champions League, Do our U23s automatically take part in European competition?

I can’t find how it works, but remember the young lads playing in Europe the season we played in the Champions League.

If so, relegation isn’t necessarily the worst thing, as players will still be playing against top class opponents.

[Kilworthfox]

2 minutes ago, Aus Fox said:

If we qualify for the Champions League, Do our U23s automatically take part in European competition?

I can’t find how it works, but remember the young lads playing in Europe the season we played in the Champions League.

If so, relegation isn’t necessarily the worst thing, as players will still be playing against top class opponents.

If they did last time I assume they would again, unless the rules have altered.

 

 

Relegation is not as bad as it would be for the first team for sure. You have to ask what are the functions of each part of the academy.

Why does the U23's, u18's u16's & below exist? Is it to win the league within their age groups? Certainly not! It is to develop players for the first team, or to sell on for money. However there should definitely be an element of winning mentality by the time they are ready for the first team. 

 

At Leicester there is a disconnect with football education. There are players who are gaining experience to the determent of the u23's results, but the benefit of their own personal development hopefully. Because development is more important than u23 results.

 

That said, the u23's are not covered in glory, and the football coached isn't in line with the academy or first team aspirations, which is not a success story!

[moore_94]

So far he has been in person to watch us get smacked up by Newcastle and to see our Under 23s relegated

 

 

[Kilworthfox]

6 minutes ago, moore_94 said:

So far he has been in person to watch us get smacked up by Newcastle and to see our Under 23s relegated

 

 

BRILLIANT!  Gotta love him, desperately want him to ask lots of questions!

[Webbo]

16 minutes ago, moore_94 said:

So far he has been in person to watch us get smacked up by Newcastle and to see our Under 23s relegated

 

 

FFS ban him from Wembley. 

[sacreblueits442]

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

I seem to remember when we played Man U earlier this season it was mentioned that they been promoted that year, I certainly don't remember playing them the year before. 

 

In all honesty which division the youth team play in isn't that important, obviously you prefer the top division, but it isn't the end of the world. 

...if their performances warranted a demotion to a lesser league therefore someone, somewhere, had failed in overseeing a progress driven project and had failed to manage it.

 

 

[Webbo]

3 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...if their performances warranted a demotion to a lesser league therefore someone, somewhere, had failed in overseeing a progress driven project and had failed to manage it.

 

 

And yet Man U have produced Mason Greenwood and others while they were in a lower division. You  could say that slightly lower standard of opposition will give more opportunity to play younger players. 

 

Every year teams get relegated, not all those managers can be terrible. People on here were demanding that we let players out on loan, lower the average age of the team and they have. What did you think would happen? 

[Foxy-Lady]

12 minutes ago, Webbo said:

And yet Man U have produced Mason Greenwood and others while they were in a lower division. You  could say that slightly lower standard of opposition will give more opportunity to play younger players. 

 

Every year teams get relegated, not all those managers can be terrible. People on here were demanding that we let players out on loan, lower the average age of the team and they have. What did you think would happen? 

I thought it would expose the short-comings of Beaglehole as a coach....and that's exactly what it did.

 

Previously he was blocking loan moves (stalling player development?) and playing over age senior players just to improve results and finish near the top of the PL2 league.

What did you think would happen if the avg age and experience of our U23s was +3/4 years older than the other U23s teams we were playing against.....other than block the development pathways for our players in the younger age groups? 

 

personally i have no issue with relegation if it moves the emphasis 100% back to player development but..........Beaglehole revelled in the spotlight and claimed the credit when he shouldn't have done and placed the emphasis on winning/results..... so why shouldn't he accept responsibility for the failure?

[rachhere]

34 minutes ago, Webbo said:

FFS ban him from Wembley. 

Indeed. In the same way that my husband is banned from the lounge on Saturday as the Newcastle match was the first one he had watched in ages!

[An Away Move]

Just now, rachhere said:

Indeed. In the same way that my husband is banned from the lounge on Saturday as the Newcastle match was the first one he had watched in ages!

Yep. My brother’s wife is banned too. The only game she attended Spurs spanked us 6-0. 

[Webbo]

7 minutes ago, Foxy-Lady said:

I thought it would expose the short-comings of Beaglehole as a coach....and that's exactly what it did.

 

Previously he was blocking loan moves (stalling player development?) and playing over age senior players just to improve results and finish near the top of the PL2 league.

What did you think would happen if the avg age and experience of our U23s was +3/4 years older than the other U23s teams we were playing against.....other than block the development pathways for our players in the younger age groups? 

 

personally i have no issue with relegation if it moves the emphasis 100% back to player development but..........Beaglehole revelled in the spotlight and claimed the credit when he shouldn't have done and placed the emphasis on winning/results..... so why shouldn't he accept responsibility for the failure?

I can't help feeling you have a personal grudge against Mr Beaglehole. 

[thegaffa]

14 hours ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...it must....!!!

If this does not give Rodgers the powers to restructure the academy then, you might just be right. Surely Rodgers will now be backed in whatever vision he has in the development of the academy. The failure this season has opened the door and Khun Top must drive the push for excellence and back a radical approach in order to speed up the process and identify existing coaches out there with the ability to train youngsters to play in a more continental fashion.

  The Premier League is no longer a league, where stamina and physicality are the base elements to build on, it is now a more technically and expansive style of football being played, driven by Continental coaches, at the head of the best English teams.

  For Rudkin to attempt to continue in the way that has brought us to this, would be pure folly, and blind stubbornness.

Great post.

 

I feel that youth football as a whole in this country has to change its mentality.

 

The scouts look at physical attributes in a far more favourable way than technical attributes, and the same can be said for many coaches too.

 

A lot of teams have players pigeon holed into positions because it gives them a better chance of winning etc.. from as young as 6 year olds.

 

By having set positions for kids at that age, how can they learn the game or what it takes to play in other positions?  They can’t.

 

Results are not important in developing players, and you can still be competitive.

 

 

[Foxy-Lady]

2 hours ago, Webbo said:

I can't help feeling you have a personal grudge against Mr Beaglehole. 

Not so much a grudge....i just happen to know what he is like, i dont consider him to the right man to be in charge at development level..... and I genuinely don't like the way he treats others.

(and i am not alone in that opinion!)

 

In life as in business, you can do a good job and still treat other people with respect and dignity....the two things are NOT incompatible!

 

(Or In Beagleholes case.....you can do a bad job and treat people with no respect!)

 

[Guppy Assist]

3 hours ago, thegaffa said:

Great post.

 

I feel that youth football as a whole in this country has to change its mentality.

 

The scouts look at physical attributes in a far more favourable way than technical attributes, and the same can be said for many coaches too.

 

A lot of teams have players pigeon holed into positions because it gives them a better chance of winning etc.. from as young as 6 year olds.

 

By having set positions for kids at that age, how can they learn the game or what it takes to play in other positions?  They can’t.

 

Results are not important in developing players, and you can still be competitive.

 

 

Definitely this.  You would not believe how many teams on Facebook are looking for specialised goalkeepers from U7s!  

 

Let the kids play and learn.  Yes we all want to win, yes different people have different skill sets and attributes, but I am a great believer in rotation and progression at young ages.

 

As for my view on LCFC's academy from my dealings with youth footy and my lads involvement; some very good coaches, some not as good, facilities and equipment spot on.  But their organisation is not always of the standard you would expect from a top Premier league club - or even a well run grass roots club.  Room for improvement and I am sure that is on the Agenda.