US Presidential Election 2020

[Mark_w]

Just now, Buce said:

Tbh, that seems like an argument in favour of FPTP...

I opposed alternative voting when we had that referendum for that very reason (I was too young to vote - and I was wrong - but 'UKIP would have made up 12.5% of parliament' was a very strong argument against improving our democracy).

[AjcW]

Just now, Mark_w said:

No you haven't literally put that in brackets. In brackets you've implied that the party with the most votes wins and, just as in the American system, that's not necessarily true here. I'm not saying don't draw comparisons, but if you dumb down our system when making that comparison, it's probably not going to help people get a solid understanding.

Fair enough  should have expanded a bit more!

[Jon the Hat]

10 minutes ago, Mark_w said:

I opposed alternative voting when we had that referendum for that very reason (I was too young to vote - and I was wrong - but 'UKIP would have made up 12.5% of parliament' was a very strong argument against improving our democracy).

I'm not sure you can claim that as your basis for not voting for AV and also claim to support democracy

[Dunge]

9 minutes ago, Mark_w said:

I opposed alternative voting when we had that referendum for that very reason (I was too young to vote - and I was wrong - but 'UKIP would have made up 12.5% of parliament' was a very strong argument against improving our democracy).

I voted to keep FPTP and I don’t regret it. I quite like our voting system, precisely because it drives people, parties and narratives toward the centre ground and compromise, and prevents divisive people on either wing from getting a foothold in parliament.

 

(Although I can imagine if someone’s politics is more out in one of those directions then FPTP would be a great frustration and something to be overhauled.)

[leicsmac]

On the topic of proportionality, with the current number of electoral college votes based on population a voter in Wyoming has over three times the voting power of one in California.

 

It's not in any way even handed, and it's not supposed to be - the argument persists that the flyover country should have the power to dictate policy to the coasts.

[urban.spaceman]

This is me.

 

[Jon the Hat]

I'm torn on this one.  Trump is a shitbag of a man who has no class whatsoever, and is also a bigot, at least as much as anyone of his age, and much worse than most.

However Biden is dodgy, too ****ing old and probably going senile.  How the hell we ended up here is anyones guess.

 

As a Conservative, both candidates tick that box in any UK sense, so fine.  Biden might well start lockdowns overnight if he wins and kill the world economy for years to come.  Who knows what is best.

Not sure I believe the polls, these postal ballots are unprecedented.

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I'm torn on this one.  Trump is a shitbag of a man who has no class whatsoever, and is also a bigot, at least as much as anyone of his age, and much worse than most.

However Biden is dodgy, too ****ing old and probably going senile.  How the hell we ended up here is anyones guess.

 

As a Conservative, both candidates tick that box in any UK sense, so fine.  Biden might well start lockdowns overnight if he wins and kill the world economy for years to come.  Who knows what is best.

Not sure I believe the polls, these postal ballots are unprecedented.

I'm sorry Jon, but does increasing global temperatures not worry you at all or is it something you feel the US cannot do anything about no matter who is in charge? Because quite frankly that difference between them should be enough.

[RonnieTodger]

Just because Biden is old and speaks badly, it doesn't mean he's going to forget who he is in office.

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

I'm sorry Jon, but does increasing global temperatures not worry you at all or is it something you feel the US cannot do anything about no matter who is in charge? Because quite frankly that difference between them should be enough.

To be honest I don't think the US or Europe are the problem. Western consumers and are will continue to drive improvements in sustainability - big corporates are taking it very seriously as a result.  What we need to is convince consumers in developing nations to skip over the massive consumption bit in the middle and move on faster to the reuse model.

Governments are shit at this stuff.  People have the power.

[Jon the Hat]

2 minutes ago, RonnieTodger said:

Just because Biden is old and speaks badly, it doesn't mean he's going to forget who he is in office.

He might forget his policies, be unduly influenced by the wrong people etc.  Having the most powerful man in the world losing his faculties is not a good outcome.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said:

To be honest I don't think the US or Europe are the problem. Western consumers and are will continue to drive improvements in sustainability - big corporates are taking it very seriously as a result.  What we need to is convince consumers in developing nations to skip over the massive consumption bit in the middle and move on faster to the reuse model.

Governments are shit at this stuff.  People have the power.

The same as the US government and the consumers it answers to have been driving "improvements in sustainability" for the last four years?

 

Nah. Consumers are still driven by the bottom line not the future (if the latter were true there wouldn't be a single oil, gas or coal power plant left in the world), and in the US Trump has worked hard to ensure that the best bottom line is with oil and gas through subsidies. If he's given another four years, he will continue to do so, with all the damage that entails.

 

NB. For the sake of clarity, I'm not talking about visible plastic/otherwise pollution here, I'm talking specifically about carbon emissions that then have a direct effect on global temperatures and cause drastic and perhaps dreadful consequences.

[Dunge]

There was an interesting article on the BBC website the other day where Americans gave their reasons for voting one way or the other. I was curious about the Trump voters in particular. While they may be accused of missing a bigger picture, I thought it was notable how they gave pretty reasonable explanations: Think Republicans are better for the economy; feel their insurance premiums have skyrocketed under Obamacare; wanted anti-police riots suppressing. These weren’t flag-waving, MAGA hat-wearing crazies. Just ordinary people with personal experience of ordinary problems. Sometimes the grief they get is very unfair.

 

All that said, if I was American it would be an easy vote for me: Biden. Aside from leaning that way anyway, Trump’s admiration of dictatorship, apologist nature for white supremacists and downright damaging approach to the environment would mean I’d happily be voting for a trained chimp in order to get rid of him. Which, it could be argued, is not so far from the truth where Biden’s concerned.

[Jon the Hat]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

The same as the US government and the consumers it answers to have been driving "improvements in sustainability" for the last four years?

 

Nah. Consumers are still driven by the bottom line not the future (if the latter were true there wouldn't be a single oil, gas or coal power plant left in the world), and in the US Trump has worked hard to ensure that the best bottom line is with oil and gas through subsidies. If he's given another four years, he will continue to do so, with all the damage that entails.

 

NB. For the sake of clarity, I'm not talking about visible plastic/otherwise pollution here, I'm talking specifically about carbon emissions that then have a direct effect on global temperatures and cause drastic and perhaps dreadful consequences.

The risk here is that whatever the US, Europe do, if China and India increase their per capita emmisions to anything close to the US we are ****ed regardless.  So you can bitch about the West all you like, what you need to stop doing is buying shit from China.

[leicsmac]

36 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

The risk here is that whatever the US, Europe do, if China and India increase their per capita emmisions to anything close to the US we are ****ed regardless.  So you can bitch about the West all you like, what you need to stop doing is buying shit from China.

So assuming that such countries aren't trying to clean up their act at exactly the same time the US (not the West as a whole) is dirtying theirs (they say they've got big plans for cutting emissions, but let's assume they're either telling porkies or won't make it anyway)...I'm not entirely sure engaging such countries in a communal race to hell when there's even a small chance things might not turn out that way is a superb argument, to be honest. Or at least one you'd like to explain to humans living a few decades from now when they ask exactly why five out of their seven brothers died of malnutrition.

Edited 3 November 2020 by leicsmac

[Mark_w]

42 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I'm not sure you can claim that as your basis for not voting for AV and also claim to support democracy

I know, that’s why I also said I was wrong.

[AjcW]

One thing I would say that i've found a bit depressing this time round, is that i've never seen so much commentary around 'the last President to die in office was....'

 

It's odd to think the two best choices America could come up with are in their mid 70's, one clearly has dementia and the other is showing signs of it. It's perfectly feasible that a VP has to take over in the next 4 years!

 

Probably the only saving grace is that Biden picked Harris, I actually think that particular move will be what seals the victory for him, clear/popular succession planning whether that be during the term or after. 

[ealingfox]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

I'm torn on this one.  Trump is a shitbag of a man who has no class whatsoever, and is also a bigot, at least as much as anyone of his age, and much worse than most.

However Biden is dodgy, too ****ing old and probably going senile.  How the hell we ended up here is anyones guess.

 

As a Conservative, both candidates tick that box in any UK sense, so fine.  Biden might well start lockdowns overnight if he wins and kill the world economy for years to come.  Who knows what is best.

Not sure I believe the polls, these postal ballots are unprecedented.

 

Do you think Donald Trump isn't dodgy? Seriously. 

[Jaspa]

3 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

Do you think Donald Trump isn't dodgy? Seriously. 

They're all dodgy. This isn't the best moral human competition, it's what Americans think is best for themselves

[ealingfox]

2 minutes ago, Jaspa said:

They're all dodgy. This isn't the best moral human competition, it's what Americans think is best for themselves

 

The post I was replying to cited being 'dodgy' as a reason not to vote for Biden over Trump,  which is frankly ludicrous given Trump is many times worse in that department. It's not even a false equivalence, it's outright opposite-land mental gymnastics.

[KFS]

Careful reading too much into the ‘Biden is senile’ rhetoric. There have been a lot of doctored videos shared. 

[Jon the Hat]

23 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

 

Do you think Donald Trump isn't dodgy? Seriously. 

Of course he is dodgy, but he is barely pretending not to be.  Biden on the other hand maybe just as dodgy, but is pretending to be clean as a whistle.  

[Jon the Hat]

16 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

The post I was replying to cited being 'dodgy' as a reason not to vote for Biden over Trump,  which is frankly ludicrous given Trump is many times worse in that department. It's not even a false equivalence, it's outright opposite-land mental gymnastics.

I perhaps could have said also dodgy.  Dodgy to very dodgy is a matter of opportunity, Trump has more as he is also pretty rich.

[bovril]

Surprised that some people really think there result doesn't affect us that much. The US is still our key ally, will be even more after Brexit. Are we really that complacent these days that we would be so meh about another 4 years of Trump at the helm of the Western world? 

[AjcW]

21 minutes ago, KFS said:

Careful reading too much into the ‘Biden is senile’ rhetoric. There have been a lot of doctored videos shared. 

To be honest, I did actually wonder whether it might have been something pushed out by Democrats, to provide a bit of cover for some of his more.. weird... actions in recent years.