England v Denmark Weds 07/07/21 20:00

[shen]

12 hours ago, whoareyaaa said:

The amount of times we have been screwed over it's about time we got a bit of luck, that 2nd freekick should never have been giving for Denmark's goal anyway, Kane could have had a peno so it's not really fair to call us out for cheating.

 

Hand of god, Sol Campbells disallowed goal and Lampard's clear goal the latter two being ones I can remember.

 

Bollox to um

 

12 hours ago, BoyJones said:

I also don’t get the antagonism towards Sterling for the penalty when the posters accusing him of cheating ignore what other teams are doing to break / bend the rules. Look at the Danish free kick engineered by their players and the free kick itself that deliberately broke the rules. The danish three were a metre away from our defensive wall before moving alongside immediately prior the ball actually being kicked. Clear breach of rules and premeditated cheating which should have resulted in an indirect free kick to a England. But of course that doesn’t suit most people’s narrative so conveniently ignored. 

A few days have gone by now and the emotions have settled a bit. I still don't think Sterling doesn't throw himself at any given opportunity - we've seen this in the PL multiple times as well. It's "part of the game" as they say. Every team does it to some degree. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt here. Maybe there was enough contact, only he will truly know as I don't think any video angles are conclusive one way or the other.

Bottom line, England aren't cheaters and they're no better or worse than so many others. I probably hold England to a higher moral standard because the public and media have historically been so vociferously against diving - it's as if it's the cardinal sin in English football. But you're not being singled out here. As @BoyJones points out, there are examples, probably many dozen, of contentious decisions in a match like this, but of course few have the same impact as a penalty/goal review/red card.

[Duquesne Whistle]

1 hour ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Find the whole England supporters are bad and everyone else are angles quite tiresome. Reflective of an echo chamber created by the media. 

 

England haven’t had a game default to 0-3 victory to the opposition in a qualifier because a fan ran on the pitch and attacked a referee. Denmark have.

Watch you don't go full 360 there mate 

Apart from that, I agree entirely with your sediment (I've spelled it that way on porpoise, by the way)

Edited 9 July 2021 by Duquesne Whistle
typo

[shen]

1 hour ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Find the whole England supporters are bad and everyone else are angles quite tiresome. Reflective of an echo chamber created by the media. 

 

England haven’t had a game default to 0-3 victory to the opposition in a qualifier because a fan ran on the pitch and attacked a referee. Denmark have.

Didn't anticipate such tetchy responses and I know you might not be referring to me specifically or generally.
I was only informing what has come out from several accounts from expats in England. Most likely many of them were first-time goers, who have now been dissuaded from ever going again. Accounts of children having to hide their Denmark shirt in fear or having to escape with their parents should make anyone sit up and take notice.

 

I don't see how the acts of an idiotic individual who was convicted and sentenced plays into this or compares to a subculture in football. That just seems like a poor jab to me. I wasn't trying to single out England - I was just surprised as I thought this only happened against supporters of nations/clubs these morons had a beef with. I don't know much evidently.

Edit: Also, for the record, this hasn't made a big splash at all over here. In fact, it was hidden way deep in other articles.

Edited 9 July 2021 by shen

[Duquesne Whistle]

3 hours ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

My outside view.

 

In the past, England have made their own luck by underachieving, not being clever enough in the big matches etc. 1966 was won thanks to a dodgy decision, but as you mention, there are probably other examples where you missed out on getting further in a tournament. Swings and roundabouts.

 

This tournament, of course England have had an "easy" route all the way, including home advantage in all but 1 match. Having said that, England teams of the past would have failed because they were not clever enough to make it count. Southgate is the perfect man to guide this team and set them up for lots of future success (at least 10-15 years).

 

England have had some luck this tournament but you need that to go all the way. They have also found the edge in games that are in the balance. Most of all, it has been a good team performance. That is why I thing England will win on Sunday, nothing even makes me think Italy stand a chance of winning, simply because England are in a flow, Southgate sets them up to at least match the opposition, players are hitting form under him, home advantage and the most important, a little bit of luck. Nailed on England win for me on Sunday, be that 90, 120 or pens.

 

Italy have looked a good side but just like England, they are only at the start of their new generation. It should be an interesting game. Even if Italy do somehow win, England can take plenty of confidence into the next few years. Right now, there are only really a handful of teams that could challenge them (Brazil, Spain and Italy).

100% disagree with that first part. If others want to claim that, fine.

100% disagree with that 2nd bit. If others want to claim that, fine.

 

Is the Germany World cup win in '74 tainted for you? If not, why not, you had home advantage in every match 

 

I'm not sure I totally agree with the 3rd part either. I thought it was a penalty.

We beat Croatia, comfortably. We didn't get away with anything against Scotland and settled for a draw in the 2nd half rather than go all out attack and end with egg on our faces. If Stones didn't have a head like a fifty pence piece, we may have won every game. Scotland matched us on the day, fair play to them. We beat the Czechs, this is where I think our only possible piece of luck came. I don't think the Czechs gave a toss about drawing/winning, they settled for 0-1 because they were through with that result. Is that luck though, maybe. We beat our old nemesis Germany comfortably really, spanked Ukraine and deservedly beat a very honourable and decent Denmark team, who gave us a right run for our money until they ran out of a bit of steam.

 

I'm honestly not having a go here, I just don't see how England have been lucky in this tournament.

 

I absolutely do not agree that England are massive favourites on Sunday either. It's a 50/50 for me. Whilst disagreeing with those pieces I've highlighted in bold type, I agree with virtually everything else you've said. 

 

It may come across that I want everyone to back England, I hope not. I totally understand why nations on this island of ours can't stand the English football team and it's supporters. If I were a Scot or Welsh, I'm almost certain I'd feel the same. It's the bullshit about not deserving to win a game when we deserve to win a game that irks me  Those types can't even see that they're doing it. I want to make it clear that I don't think it's everyone though. We have a Scots lad on here that firmly nails his colours to anyone playing England, but still is able to give his opinion that he thought the Sterling incident was a penalty and England deserved to go through. In fact, I'm sure there's others, I just don't know everyone's nationality. A lot of the mainland Europeans have been very complimentary, and the Danish lads on here were honest enough to be congratulatory to England fans after a heartbreaking defeat. It's the boneheaded bullshitters that need to take a look at themselves. It would also be nice if more of our fans (England) could be as gracious after defeats as the likes of Shen, Vince Noir and Jonesy have been, we have a bad record in the department of graciousness, no doubt about it.

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

I'm pretty sure the only reason that hasn't happened is because the Ireland match in 1995 was a friendly and not a qualifier.

I was purposely showing an exceptation - people who support and follow England / and English club supporters who see their team abroad are constantly picked on as that they are some one-off breed of hooligan. 

 

There are football fans across the world who display the same idiocy yet sections will only decry only English supporters (largely backed by a media who focus on certain narratives - our media equally overly focus on say Russian fans in the build-up to a World Cup for example)

 

Italy, who with some have taken this role on as some noble defender of sensibility for this final, have a supporter base which is openly racist and a league which repeatedly dogged with corruption. 

 

England have actually made some major strides since 1995 and since 2000. 1995 being of course that event in Dublin and 2000 being the last organised major disorder in Charleroi. They have broke the link between organised hooliganism and the national team. What occurs now sadly at places as recently as Wednesday or Marseille in 2016 or Amsterdam for the recent friendly is the level of idiocy which pretty much applies across the world. 

 

46 minutes ago, shen said:

Didn't anticipate such tetchy responses and I know you might not be referring to me specifically or generally.
I was only informing what has come out from several accounts from expats in England. Most likely many of them were first-time goers, who have now been dissuaded from ever going again. Accounts of children having to hide their Denmark shirt in fear or having to escape with their parents should make anyone sit up and take notice.

 

I don't see how the acts of an idiotic individual who was convicted and sentenced plays into this or compares to a subculture in football. That just seems like a poor jab to me. I wasn't trying to single out England - I was just surprised as I thought this only happened against supporters of nations/clubs these morons had a beef with. I don't know much evidently.

Edit: Also, for the record, this hasn't made a big splash at all over here. In fact, it was hidden way deep in other articles.

I used an example that idiotic events in football don't just happen with English supporters - I picked up on the incident in Parken because posters on here have cited that you don't have the same problems with Danes, it wasn't necessarily aimed at you but just proof of an incident that occur in a country which people view as safe. Ironically we had ultras from Section 12 Copenhagen in Leicester looking for any trouble they could find back in 2016. 

 

Having travelled with Leicester during the CL year, I came across some form of 'intimidation' at Parken, Porto and Seville - threats of violence, theft, police 'brutality'. And we (group of 3 at varying ages) never did the whole let's pitch up in a square and drink here all day. Never wore colours. Never sung songs in streets. That night post match after Seville was so bloody moody with police vans circling the city centre and the smell of rubber/tear gas. 

Edited 9 July 2021 by Cardiff_Fox

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

I was purposely showing an exceptation - people who support and follow England / and English club supporters who see their team abroad are constantly picked on as that they are some one-off breed of hooligan. 

 

There are football fans across the world who display the same idiocy yet sections will only decry only English supporters (largely backed by a media who focus on certain narratives - our media equally overly focus on say Russian fans in the build-up to a World Cup for example)

 

Italy, who with some have taken this role on as some noble defender of sensibility for this final, have a supporter base which is openly racist and a league which repeatedly dogged with corruption. 

 

England have actually made some major strides since 1995 and since 2000. 1995 being of course that event in Dublin and 2000 being the last organised major disorder in Charleroi. They have broke the link between organised hooliganism and the national team. What occurs now sadly at places as recently as Wednesday or Marseille in 2016 or Amsterdam for the recent friendly is the level of idiocy which pretty much applies across the world. 

 

I used an example that idiotic events in football don't just happen with English supporters - I picked up on the incident in Parken because posters on here have cited that you don't have the same problems with Danes, it wasn't necessarily aimed at you but just proof of an incident that occur in a country which people view as safe. Ironically we had ultras from Section 12 Copenhagen in Leicester looking for any trouble they could find back in 2016. 

 

Having travelled with Leicester during the CL year, I came across some form of 'intimidation' at Parken, Porto and Seville - threats of violence, theft, police 'brutality'. And we (group of 3 at varying ages) never did the whole let's pitch up in a square and drink here all day. Never wore colours. Never sung songs in streets. That night post match after Seville was so bloody moody with police vans circling the city centre and the smell of rubber/tear gas. 

Your argument is fair tbh, the days of the "English Disease" are for the most part over.

 

I think that clamping down on any possible incident to prevent a resurgence - and that includes debate about it - isn't a bad idea, though.

[KrefelderFox666]

4 hours ago, Spudulike said:

OMG, you do know that it ended 4-2 in '66? England did not win with a' dodgy' decision. And 'probaby other examples'!! Yeah, Maradona probably handled the ball, Lampard's shot probably went over the line, Campbell probably fouled the keeper when he scored (eventhough the keeper was impeded by his own defender) etc etc. No probably about it. Jeez. 

 

As for having an 'easy' route, perhaps you had forgotten that England had the world Cup finalists and a very dangerous Czech team that reached the quarter finals in their group. Mostly home advantage is not unique to England. 

But that only ended like that because of the 3rd goal, you do understand that right? Have you not seen "Back to the future" when old Biff destroys the timeline and creates a new alternative 1985!!! If that third goal is not given, England might NOT have won. However, in the same way, they might have won anyway. It doesn't matter now because it is in the past, much like the penalty on Wednesday.

 

You cannot say that you looked at that group and the route to the final and thought, that's tough. Challenging yes, but every game at the EUROs is. Are you saying the route of Spain, Switzerland and Italy was easier? Yes home advantage was there for most teams in some form, but not in the KO games. Aside from that, it is a shame that England have only ever hosted two major tournaments properly while the likes of Russia and Qatar are buying it. Pretty sure teams in the past benefitted from hosting, no doubt.

[shen]

8 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

I used an example that idiotic events in football don't just happen with English supporters - I picked up on the incident in Parken because posters on here have cited that you don't have the same problems with Danes, it wasn't necessarily aimed at you but just proof of an incident that occur in a country which people view as safe. Ironically we had ultras from Section 12 Copenhagen in Leicester looking for any trouble they could find back in 2016. 

 

Having travelled with Leicester during the CL year, I came across some form of 'intimidation' at Parken, Porto and Seville - threats of violence, theft, police 'brutality'. And we (group of 3 at varying ages) never did the whole let's pitch up in a square and drink here all day. Never wore colours. Never sung songs in streets. That night post match after Seville was so bloody moody with police vans circling the city centre and the smell of rubber/tear gas. 

Gotcha.

Yeah, ultras/firms/gangs/hooligans or whatever they go by are part of football culture in many places for sure. We obviously have some of these as you point out - in particular from FC Copenhagen, Brøndby, Fremad Amager and AGF. I haven't heard of unrest during national games with Denmark though (besides that single moronic incident) - I have a suspicion that those games are attended far more by families with children and softcore fans. Sorry you had those unsettling experiences during that year though.

I would love if more was done from the clubs, FAs and fan groups themselves to identify these people and basically help to dismantle/change the hostile fan culture. Clubs in our countries should be well-enough equipped to do this.

[KrefelderFox666]

43 minutes ago, Duquesne Whistle said:

100% disagree with that first part. If others want to claim that, fine.

100% disagree with that 2nd bit. If others want to claim that, fine.

 

Is the Germany World cup win in '74 tainted for you? If not, why not, you had home advantage in every match 

 

I'm not sure I totally agree with the 3rd part either. I thought it was a penalty.

We beat Croatia, comfortably. We didn't get away with anything against Scotland and settled for a draw in the 2nd half rather than go all out attack and end with egg on our faces. If Stones didn't have a head like a fifty pence piece, we may have won every game. Scotland matched us on the day, fair play to them. We beat the Czechs, this is where I think our only possible piece of luck came. I don't think the Czechs gave a toss about drawing/winning, they settled for 0-1 because they were through with that result. Is that luck though, maybe. We beat our old nemesis Germany comfortably really, spanked Ukraine and deservedly beat a very honourable and decent Denmark team, who gave us a right run for our money until they ran out of a bit of steam.

 

I'm honestly not having a go here, I just don't see how England have been lucky in this tournament.

 

I absolutely do not agree that England are massive favourites on Sunday either. It's a 50/50 for me. Whilst disagreeing with those pieces I've highlighted in bold type, I agree with virtually everything else you've said. 

 

It may come across that I want everyone to back England, I hope not. I totally understand why nations on this island of ours can't stand the English football team and it's supporters. If I were a Scot or Welsh, I'm almost certain I'd feel the same. It's the bullshit about not deserving to win a game when we deserve to win a game that irks me  Those types can't even see that they're doing it. I want to make it clear that I don't think it's everyone though. We have a Scots lad on here that firmly nails his colours to anyone playing England, but still is able to give his opinion that he thought the Sterling incident was a penalty and England deserved to go through. In fact, I'm sure there's others, I just don't know everyone's nationality. A lot of the mainland Europeans have been very complimentary, and the Danish lads on here were honest enough to be congratulatory to England fans after a heartbreaking defeat. It's the boneheaded bullshitters that need to take a look at themselves. It would also be nice if more of our fans (England) could be as gracious after defeats as the likes of Shen, Vince Noir and Jonesy have been, we have a bad record in the department of graciousness, no doubt about it.

It shouldn't be tainting anything, I am just explaining the multiple factors of why England will win this tournament, sometimes things just add up and for England it hasn't in the past. Not a bad thing. As above, many teams have no doubt benefitted from a home WC or EURO, not an issue but it is a fact that it increases chances of success (not a guarantee), your example of 74 probably included.

 

If I look at my nation again, we had some luck in 2014 when we won the WC (not the semi vs Brazil though!). We somehow took Algeria into ET in the Last 16 and were lucky to win. On another day, we get knocked out. There are likely many examples especially recently with Spain's WC and Portugal's EURO win. As I said before, you need some luck and also at times have to earn it. Again, nothing to be ashamed of or to be seen as a negative.

 

England have not been lucky all tournament, that's impossible to do. Get to the final on luck, but there has been some key elements. England have earned their spot in the final, just like Italy.

 

On the penalty, by the letter of the law, it probably is. But I wouldn't want that given or we end up with dozens of penalties every time someone is touched. I would prefer the game to become that little bit "rougher" and allow some contact. It is a contact sport.

 

Enjoy and good luck Sunday, I have a significant financial interest in England winning but otherwise fairly neutral and hope for a final to remember.

[Foxxed]

22 hours ago, Criggers said:

We didn’t do that. Some people did. And the wielder of the laser pen for example should be found and dealt with.

 

But if you think piss taking doesn’t happen in other countries you’re mad. I don’t agree with it, but it absolutely happens all over the gaff.

You’re right of course. But we’re judged as a group. Hence the dislike for the team and support.

 

There’s plenty of stuff online with the Italian fans vandalising things. But I don’t care about them frankly.

[Spudulike]

3 minutes ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

But that only ended like that because of the 3rd goal, you do understand that right? Have you not seen "Back to the future" when old Biff destroys the timeline and creates a new alternative 1985!!! If that third goal is not given, England might NOT have won. However, in the same way, they might have won anyway. It doesn't matter now because it is in the past, much like the penalty on Wednesday.

 

You cannot say that you looked at that group and the route to the final and thought, that's tough. Challenging yes, but every game at the EUROs is. Are you saying the route of Spain, Switzerland and Italy was easier? Yes home advantage was there for most teams in some form, but not in the KO games. Aside from that, it is a shame that England have only ever hosted two major tournaments properly while the likes of Russia and Qatar are buying it. Pretty sure teams in the past benefitted from hosting, no doubt.

Funny old thing, but I do understand it as I watched it at the time. Only a little kid but remember it well. You start by saying it only ended like that because of the 3rd goal but then contradict yourself in the same paragraph. Believe it or not, I've never watched 'back to the future', well not entirely (probably the only person on the planet that hasn't). 

 

I'm not saying that any others had an easy route but challenging your comment that England did. They didn't. 

 

But you are right, it's in the past, and England deserve to be in the final. 

[CosbehFox]

29 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Your argument is fair tbh, the days of the "English Disease" are for the most part over.

 

I think that clamping down on any possible incident to prevent a resurgence - and that includes debate about it - isn't a bad idea, though.

That in part is societal - again that's reflected not just here in England but across most of Europe. Even examples in American soccer where the political pattern impacts. 

[Blarmy]

This is thread is depressing for about a million different reasons…

[KrefelderFox666]

7 minutes ago, Spudulike said:

Funny old thing, but I do understand it as I watched it at the time. Only a little kid but remember it well. You start by saying it only ended like that because of the 3rd goal but then contradict yourself in the same paragraph. Believe it or not, I've never watched 'back to the future', well not entirely (probably the only person on the planet that hasn't). 

 

I'm not saying that any others had an easy route but challenging your comment that England did. They didn't. 

 

But you are right, it's in the past, and England deserve to be in the final. 

Unbelievable!

 

Fair play, I was far off being born at that point. I was 2 months old when Germany won in Italy and 6 years old when they won the EUROs in 96. However, my first memory wasn't until 98. Have been quite fortunate to see some success these past 20 years or so, with some absolute turd mixed in (early 00s and now). However, glad for most of my mates who would never have witnessed England get anywhere until now (last WC and this year). I think there is a lot more to come, looks as if England have finally got the basic setup right to build on. Even if Italy win Sunday, success should only be round the corner.

[Duquesne Whistle]

56 minutes ago, KrefelderFox666 said:

But that only ended like that because of the 3rd goal, you do understand that right? Have you not seen "Back to the future" when old Biff destroys the timeline and creates a new alternative 1985!!! If that third goal is not given, England might NOT have won. However, in the same way, they might have won anyway. It doesn't matter now because it is in the past, much like the penalty on Wednesday.

 

You cannot say that you looked at that group and the route to the final and thought, that's tough. Challenging yes, but every game at the EUROs is. Are you saying the route of Spain, Switzerland and Italy was easier? Yes home advantage was there for most teams in some form, but not in the KO games. Aside from that, it is a shame that England have only ever hosted two major tournaments properly while the likes of Russia and Qatar are buying it. Pretty sure teams in the past benefitted from hosting, no doubt.

Correct on both counts. How does a challenging route equate as 'lucky' though? A lucky route was our draw in the last World cup, that probably was lucky and, with all due respect to Sweden, we lost to the only two very good teams we faced (3 times in all). 

Croatia, Czech Republic, Ukraine and Denmark are not easy games, though the Ukraine one turned out to be in the end. As for Scotland, most major nations would take Scotland in their group these days, solely based on their record this century, but for England, Scotland are the worst minnows to draw (and I don't mean minnows disrespectfully). It was their cup final, look how they celebrated a 0-0 draw. Everyone except Stevie Wonder can see that Scotland find extra everything when they play England. I just don't see this draw as lucky, or any of the five performances so far.

As for whether Spain, Switzerland and Italy have had harder routes, what does that matter? The excuse of easy routes/lucky draws seems to crop up in relation to England more than any other nation, that's not by accident.

 

I take your point about what may or may not have happened had that Hurst goal been ruled out in 1966, but for people to still seriously use that against the only England tournament win ever, 60 odd years later, is simply ridiculous.

 

On your last point, English fans have to accept that our scummy supporters in the 80's and 90's (and to a lesser degree, every decade since) have stopped us from hosting more tournament finals. Who would have wanted to come watch a tournament in England when our fans were causing trouble wherever they went? I don't blame Fifa/Uefa for not having more tournaments here, I blame a (rather large at times) section of England supporters for that being the case. If you can't behave yourself, why should you be rewarded? Of course, there's many brilliant England fans go for the right reasons, even more so these days thankfully, but we have no one to blame but ourselves for the lack of hosting tournaments. 

 

In your other post you have said you've had a large wager on England? Smart man, I didn't think we had a cat in hells chance. Don't start counting your money yet though. If some people think England have had it easy, they certainly can't say that about facing an Italy side who have history in their favour in the final. History/schmistory right? Means nothing? Except teams like Italy, Germany and Brazil tend to prove that history often gives a pointer to the outcome of the very biggest games. That's why those three teams sit with 15 major titles to 1 from England. I hope your back pocket is bulging with money on Saturday, but I'm not banking on it.

 

Thanks for the responses though (same to others who have responded), it's nice to have some reasoned debate 

Edited 9 July 2021 by Duquesne Whistle
Edit - Should have said some* of our scummy supporters in the 80's and 90's. There was plenty of good ones too.

[Hollyfox]

15 hours ago, StanSP said:

I think there's gonna be a hell of a lot of trouble in either scenario. I think for the whole game it'll be fine and probably in good nature and good humour. 

It's after the game I think we're gonna see some carnage and 'scenes' down the High Street. 

 

Hope you're wrong mate, but I doubt it. 

 

Too many idiots jump on the football bandwagon when it's international time, many really don't have a clue about football or how to behave in victory or defeat. 

 

 

[KrefelderFox666]

22 minutes ago, Duquesne Whistle said:

Correct on both counts. How does a challenging route equate as 'lucky' though? A lucky route was our draw in the last World cup, that probably was lucky and, with all due respect to Sweden, we lost to the only two very good teams we faced (3 times in all). 

Croatia, Czech Republic, Ukraine and Denmark are not easy games, though the Ukraine one turned out to be in the end. As for Scotland, most major nations would take Scotland in their group these days, solely based on their record this century, but for England, Scotland are the worst minnows to draw (and I don't mean minnows disrespectfully). It was their cup final, look how they celebrated a 0-0 draw. Everyone except Stevie Wonder can see that Scotland find extra everything when they play England. I just don't see this draw as lucky, or any of the five performances so far.

As for whether Spain, Switzerland and Italy have had harder routes, what does that matter? The excuse of easy routes/lucky draws seems to crop up in relation to England more than any other nation, that's not by accident.

 

I take your point about what may or may not have happened had that Hurst goal been ruled out in 1966, but for people to still seriously use that against the only England tournament win ever, 60 odd years later, is simply ridiculous.

 

On your last point, English fans have to accept that our scummy supporters in the 80's and 90's (and to a lesser degree, every decade since) have stopped us from hosting more tournament finals. Who would have wanted to come watch a tournament in England when our fans were causing trouble wherever they went? I don't blame Fifa/Uefa for not having more tournaments here, I blame a (rather large at times) section of England supporters for that being the case. If you can't behave yourself, why should you be rewarded? Of course, there's many brilliant England fans go for the right reasons, even more so these days thankfully, but we have no one to blame but ourselves for the lack of hosting tournaments. 

 

In your other post you have said you've had a large wager on England? Smart man, I didn't think we had a cat in hells chance. Don't start counting your money yet though. If some people think England have had it easy, they certainly can't say that about facing an Italy side who have history in their favour in the final. History/schmistory right? Means nothing? Except teams like Italy, Germany and Brazil tend to prove that history often gives a pointer to the outcome of the very biggest games. That's why those three teams sit with 15 major titles to 1 from England. I hope your back pocket is bulging with money on Saturday, but I'm not banking on it.

 

Thanks for the responses though (same to others who have responded), it's nice to have some reasoned debate 

Good post.

 

I guess being on the outside helps me try and see the England team with a bit more balance/confidence in doing well. The England teams of past have simply been underachievers (not all but a lot), not just the players, but brought from the FA down. The structure was wrong and the approach to big tournaments much so. However, Southgate has been fantastic for the England team and it has helped that he had almost a clean slate (in regard to new/fresh players coming in). This is where I didn't like Germany keeping Low, he was not the right person to ring the changes for a new generation (aside from the fact our talent pool is not producing much these days). Of course England winning was never a banker, but I did feel that all things were adding up at this time. Whether enough has added up for Sunday, who knows. I still just feel there is a lot of fate that screams England win at me.

 

Re the fans in the 80s/90s (I wasn't really in the fan scene at that point, came to England in 98 and didn't go to many games until late 2000s and then heavily since early/mid 2010s) but I am fully aware of the nasty history. Pretty sure other countries had similar but possibly not at the levels as over here. However, England bid for 2018 was it? Which if it wasn't for dodgy payoffs/political interests, would have been a good case for hosts. Personally, I hope England get another big tournament soon (2030 is what is being mentioned). By that point, the fans of the 80s/90s who might still be affecting some of the games today will be even less in numbers. As I mentioned elsewhere, I was actually pleasantly surprised by the overall fan experience when I went as a Germany supporter last week (not sure if an England loss would have changed that but it was a good day out). Lots of England fans just seem to be enjoying the ride and happy to see some success at last. All that is missing is a trophy now...

[bovril]

3 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Find the whole England supporters are bad and everyone else are bad angles quite tiresome. Reflective of an echo chamber created by the media. 

That was 1500 years ago, I think you Celtic Britons need to let it go

[purpleronnie]

I wonder if St George's Park has contributed to our success over the past few years?  Clairefontaine certainly helped the French team...although not this time.

[CosbehFox]

13 minutes ago, purpleronnie said:

I wonder if St George's Park has contributed to our success over the past few years?  Clairefontaine certainly helped the French team...although not this time.

Dan Ashworth is the link in it all. That and youth groups were brilliant, achieved success too. 

[enmac]

On 07/07/2021 at 19:21, SydenhamFox said:

I totally get what you’re saying, but national team sport is basically safe and sanctioned war and I rather like the medieval booing, much like I love the, ‘You’re shit! Aaaarrrrgggghhh’ after opposition keepers take GKs. 

Not the same as booing a whole nation IMO. 

[enmac]

On 07/07/2021 at 19:29, Haydos said:

Maybe it's things like the daily mail whipping boomers up into a frenzy whenever we play Germany.

Entirely correct. Also, back in 66, only 2 channels, no dedicated sports radio, no social media and most importantly, IMO, politicians didn't attack anything foreign like today. 

 

[Finnegan]

On 09/07/2021 at 11:44, Cardiff_Fox said:

Find the whole England supporters are bad and everyone else are bad angles quite tiresome. Reflective of an echo chamber created by the media. 

 

England haven’t had a game default to 0-3 victory to the opposition in a qualifier because a fan ran on the pitch and attacked a referee. Denmark have.

 

I'm sorry but England have one of the biggest sections of absolute knuckle dragging, disruptive cvnts in international football. 

 

It's always boohooohoo, FIFA/UEFA hate us, never let us host anything, boohooohoo. 

 

Then you get given the opportunity and it's abusing everyone's anthems, attacking and spitting on their fans, booing anti racism displays, laser pens in the eyes, jeering at crying children, trying to force your way in to stadiums and generally acting like complete and total filth. 

 

What other major tournament host in recent memory has been that unwelcoming, hostile and unpleasant? Even the Russians, for all the hype and fear mongering in the build up were generally applauded for being gracious and welcoming. 

 

Look, I live here, I like it here, 95% of my friends are English and I love them to bits. This country is filled with absolutely fantastic people who represent the massive majority. It's fairly progressive, we've got pretty decent personal and press freedoms and for the most part we've got a football scene that isn't full of rampant hooliganism, violent knife crime and horrific racist abuse.

 

But for whatever reason the England national team brings out the absolute worst in a huge swathe of boozed up jingoists that seem to actively take pride in being hostile to everyone. 

 

I feel genuinely, legitimately sorry for all the millions of English football fans that aren't willy pullers that get lumped in with the minority that do ruin it but that minority is so, so loud, so hostile, so ugly and so unpleasant that I don't really think you can just blame some media echo chamber for slandering the image of England. 

[CosbehFox]

5 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

I'm sorry but England have one of the biggest sections of absolute knuckle dragging, disruptive cvnts in international football. 

 

It's always boohooohoo, FIFA/UEFA hate us, never let us host anything, boohooohoo. 

 

Then you get given the opportunity and it's abusing everyone's anthems, attacking and spitting on their fans, booing anti racism displays, laser pens in the eyes, jeering at crying children, trying to force your way in to stadiums and generally acting like complete and total filth. 

 

What other major tournament host in recent memory has been that unwelcoming, hostile and unpleasant? Even the Russians, for all the hype and fear mongering in the build up were generally applauded for being gracious and welcoming. 

 

Look, I live here, I like it here, 95% of my friends are English and I love them to bits. This country is filled with absolutely fantastic people who represent the massive majority. It's fairly progressive, we've got pretty decent personal and press freedoms and for the most part we've got a football scene that isn't full of rampant hooliganism, violent knife crime and horrific racist abuse.

 

But for whatever reason the England national team brings out the absolute worst in a huge swathe of boozed up jingoists that seem to actively take pride in being hostile to everyone. 

 

I feel genuinely, legitimately sorry for all the millions of English football fans that aren't willy pullers that get lumped in with the minority that do ruin it but that minority is so, so loud, so hostile, so ugly and so unpleasant that I don't really think you can just blame some media echo chamber for slandering the image of England. 

Seriously after yesterday's antics I don't have a denial of England and it's problems. 

 

I am certainly not in the category about FIFA/UEFA hates us - both of them love the occasion of Wembley, biggest modern stadium avaliable in a city where the super rich can be completely cut off from the riff raff. Yesterday was a death knell for any hopes of a major tournament. 

 

it's abusing everyone's anthems, attacking and spitting on their fans, booing anti racism displays, laser pens in the eyes, jeering at crying children, trying to force your way in to stadiums and generally acting like complete and total filth - accepted this doesn't happen at internationals but there's about four of those I've come across watching football abroad - actually brought back memories of the laughable attempts at Italian grounds where people jib in. Yeah England have a problem and it's larger than most but to say those scenes don't happen elsewhere is plain wrong, they do as I explained in a further post in the thread. 

[Finnegan]

46 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Yeah England have a problem and it's larger than most but to say those scenes don't happen elsewhere is plain wrong, they do as I explained in a further post in the thread. 

 

The thing is, though, there's a difference between a random qualifier or international friendly midweek, mid season and then how the country responds to a truly major occasion like the last few weeks. 

 

You can find countless examples of Italy - Croatia or Serbia - Albania games where nationalistic fan trouble caused major incidents or the likes of Bulgaria throwing around racist abuse, Hungary's fascist black shirts showing themselves up, etc. 

 

Conversely, England go away all over Europe for qualifying all the time or host these non-event matches during the season without incident. 

 

But as soon as the summer roles round and we're all off to some foreign country for a special occasion its England willy pullers taking over some foreign square causing a scene, smashing shit up, harassing the locals and taking pride in being as disruptive as possible. And while the locals are happily bonding with the visiting Irish, Germans, Spaniards, Colombians or whoever - they're all getting called out by that cliché mob of Ingerlunders. 

 

And that's who rocked up to meet, greet and play host when it was finally England's turn to have the party round their gaff. Fans of almost every other country understand what it is to host, to invite people in to your back yard, make them feel welcome and want to put on a show. But the lasting reception you get here is hostility, intimidation and a big F U. Where else in the world have we seen that in our lifetime of major summer finals? 

 

And it wasn't like that in the rugby, it wasn't like that for the Olympics, we know Britain CAN do it. We know England CAN do it. It really is just the England national team in football that has this cult following of our absolute fvcking worst of British society. 

 

Edited 12 July 2021 by Finnegan