US Gun Violence

[yorkie1999]

17 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Gun rights to an American are just another human right. There needs to be a shift in that before anything is done. 
 

Whilst I think all guns should be fully illegal I’d explore limiting the types of gun available, I.e you can have sports style weapons and you can have a handgun but nothing militaryesque. I’d also look at minimum age. I.e you can have a basic weapon at 21 and then after let’s say ten years of a clean record you can move up to other things. 

Maybe the government should ask the american people if they actually want that right. I think they need a nation wide referundum on whether or not to ban guns. They've got 2 choices, either carry on as they are or ban guns, if they want to continue to see kids shooting up schools let them get on with it.

[Izzy]

Bloody hell, he doesn't hold back. Fair play to him...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-61576574

 

NBA Warriors coach on Texas school shooting: 'When are we going to do something?'

The head coach for the NBA's Golden State Warriors refused to talk about basketball during a news conference and instead delivered an emotional speech condemning gun violence in the United States.

 

[lgfualol]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

Bloody hell, he doesn't hold back. Fair play to him...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-61576574

 

NBA Warriors coach on Texas school shooting: 'When are we going to do something?'

The head coach for the NBA's Golden State Warriors refused to talk about basketball during a news conference and instead delivered an emotional speech condemning gun violence in the United States.

 

I read his father was killed by gunmen.

 

Honestly, America is ****ed.

[urban.spaceman]

I can still remember the feeling around the country after Dunblane. I was at primary school too. The horror, the anxiety, the sadness and grief of the parents and teachers. 

 

America will never change, they'll never learn. If someone's right to own a deadly weapon exceeds the rights of your child to be safe at school, you're lost as a society. If you've got members of society whose first reaction to an easily preventable tragedy like this is to promote gun rights, you're lost as a society.

 

Third world country in a ****ing Gucci belt.

[ClaphamFox]

5 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

I can still remember the feeling around the country after Dunblane. I was at primary school too. The horror, the anxiety, the sadness and grief of the parents and teachers. 

 

America will never change, they'll never learn. If someone's right to own a deadly weapon exceeds the rights of your child to be safe at school, you're lost as a society. If you've got members of society whose first reaction to an easily preventable tragedy like this is to promote gun rights, you're lost as a society.

 

Third world country in a ****ing Gucci belt.

Unfortunately I think you're right. The pro-gun lobby in the US will never, ever admit that guns are the problem. The big lie they continue to tell - that the availibility of guns has nothing to do with the very high rate of gun crime - is so deeply entrenched in their worldview that literally nothing, not even the massacre of children in a school, will shift it. And enough Americans believe it to ensure that any proposals to impose more gun control invariably end in failure. I hate to be so fatalistic, but I honestly don't see how they're ever going to get to grips with this problem when they are so willing to lie to themselves about why it exists.

[fox_up_north]

I have a mate who moved out to LA. I have literally no idea why he did it, as everything sounds awful. 

[LiberalFox]

I think if you want to limit gun violence you need to more heavily control gun ownership. 

 

a) Try and build a consensus as to what level of gun control is ideal.

b) Assess where you are at currently.

b) Bring in measures to move toward where you want to be.

c) Monitor the situation.

 

Honestly I don't see a lot changing on a federal level in the US because there isn't that consensus.  

[Zear0]

22 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

I have a mate who moved out to LA. I have literally no idea why he did it, as everything sounds awful. 

I spent 2 years living in Ohio and, whilst I can't ever speak for the views of a nation, the level of underlying fear is simply staggering.  When I moved there, every individual I spoke to told me to get a gun otherwise "people will come into your house and kill you".  When I then had the displeasure to move to the border of Georgia/Florida it was exactly the same.  Whilst I'm sure this is not representative of everyone, it is a glimpse of the fear and paranoia they seem to suffer which is incomprehensible to living here.  It's completely mental, but you're asking people who are adamant that a communist, foreign, drug fuelled socialist is going to kick down their doors and murder them, how do you reduce gun numbers or even make sure they lock them up.  There is, sadly, no arguing with these ideological loons when they're gripped by such paranoia.

 

Sadly, Steve Kerr, hit the nail on the head.  There'll be some minutes silence and vows to do something about it and then F.A will happen.  This will simply happen again and again until firm action is made to stop children getting their hands on weapons.  Quick access gun cabinets exist, if you must own an assault rifle to protect yourself from the King of England pushing you around (there's a problem for one), put them in there.

 

Lock. Your. F**king. Guns. Away.

Edited 25 May 2022 by Zear0

[Lionator]

The terrifying thing about guns is how much damage one can do in such a short space of time. I can’t think of anything else that would match it. Knives and vehicles the majority can likely run away from, bombs can’t be made impulsively etc. Its absolutely mental. Even if they didn’t want to ban guns, there is absolutely no reason for semi automatic rifles to be purchasable. Single shot Pistols for self defence fine, but that should be the line. Assault weapons are absolutely monstrous and the fact most Americans could grab one in an emotional rage and commit so much damage is terrifying. 

[RoboFox]

Sadly extreme violence has been deeply ingrained into American culture over hundreds of years. That will never change.

 

They live by the constitution as if it was some sort of religious scripture. They brainwash their children by encouraging them to recite a pledge of allegiance to a piece of cloth on a flagpole. Nothing is more important than rights. "Freedom." The truth is a document that is nearly 250 years old is not fit for purpose in 2022.

 

There are plenty of senators who actually want change, but unfortunately the right-wing, Christian, pro-gun lobby will never allow it. Money always prevails. It's the American Dream. 

 

The solution is glaringly obvious, but prohibitively complicated.

[Foxdiamond]

I've never been to the US but from the outside it looks like some there think they are still in the wild West days. What is particularly shocking is that such powerful semi and automatic weapons are available. The sort of stuff you would expect only the army to have. Nothing will change as it appears that the price paid for so called freedom is worth paying. Ghastly situation.

[Dunge]

Two possibilities come to mind for me:

 

Firstly, maybe try to bring something in heavy regulation in a particular state, somewhere like a New England state or Colorado. It could create a big argument but it would be a place to trial regulations and get some statistics.

 

Second, do nothing. Absolutely nothing. Stop fighting. Leave it all visibly in the hands of the NRA. When massacres occur, shrug your shoulders. Don’t offer “thoughts and prayers”, offer nothing. Make sure that the NRA and pro-gun lobby don’t have anyone to fight over this and take ownership of the deaths of children across the country. If they suggest doing something, listen by all means but calmly point out that you’ve tried doing something in the past but every time get shot down (pun not intended). If they want to find a solution now then you’ll work with them but they need to own both the problem and the solution for it to be accepted.

[Detroit Blues]

The sad reality is there are no solutions that can be implemented that Republicans will agree to. They control enough of the senate to stop any resolutions from being called to a vote. They control a supermajority of the supreme court, which would declare unconstitutional most of the laws that have been suggested on here.

 

Lobbying is considered protected speech, and any laws limiting the NRA (or other organizations) from lobbying to the US government would be against the first amendment right to free speech.

Political donations and advertisements are also a form of protected speech based on the Citizen's United ruling.

The supreme court has interpreted the 2nd amendment to guarantee the right of individual citizens to own weapons (up until the 70s it was not interpreted this way, and only protected the rights of citizens to maintain a militia). Many laws restricting access would be ruled unconstitutional. 

 

So in order to make change, the following has to happen:

1) A culture change where the majority of Americans step up to demand change from our government, and continue the push for gun control change for generations (which is how long it will take steps 2 and 3)

2) That change be reflected in grassroots political action - fundraising, voting, etc. to elect candidates that will shift the current political paradigm. Democrats need to control at least 60/100 seats on the senate to bypass a filibuster. They need to control the presidency to by pass a veto. They need to change state governments to be more liberal as well, since many laws are at the state level. 

3) A change in power within the supreme court. Replace the 6-3 conservative majority with at least a 5-4 liberal majority, by replacing supreme court justices over the generations as current members die/retire. OR have the balls to pack the court and and add at least 4 more supreme court justices spots, and push through liberal candidates using the filibuster proof majority in the senate. With a majority on the supreme court, they then need cases to overturn conservative legal precedent and re-interpret the second amendment as a communal right to bear arms, and not an individual's right to own firearms.

4) Universal healthcare to make mental health care accessible and affordable.

5) Laws at the federal and state level, and possibly a constitutional amendment enacting restrictions on gun ownership (to even an outright ban). After which comes the problem of taking/buying back the hundreds of millions of firearms from people who do not want to give them up.

 

 

 

[spacemunky]

2 hours ago, Foxdiamond said:

I've never been to the US but from the outside it looks like some there think they are still in the wild West days. What is particularly shocking is that such powerful semi and automatic weapons are available. The sort of stuff you would expect only the army to have. Nothing will change as it appears that the price paid for so called freedom is worth paying. Ghastly situation.

That 'Wild West' mindset is still very much present.

 

I used to game online with a bunch of guys mostly from the Southern US. Nice guys, but don't get them started on politics and guns 

 

Was odd to me how they have to have their gun on them to go to the store for milk and bread.

 

Happy to be in Canada 🇨🇦 

[marbles]

42 minutes ago, Detroit Blues said:

 

3) A change in power within the supreme court. Replace the 6-3 conservative majority with at least a 5-4 liberal majority, by replacing supreme court justices over the generations as current members die/retire. OR have the balls to pack the court and and add at least 4 more supreme court justices spots, and push through liberal candidates using the filibuster proof majority in the senate. With a majority on the supreme court, they then need cases to overturn conservative legal precedent and re-interpret the second amendment as a communal right to bear arms, and not an individual's right to own firearms.

 

 

 

 

This the only part I dont agree with.

Adding Justices simply because the opposing party holds it is a nasty proposition.  Its set up the way it is for a reason, and changing it because you may or may not like a decision goes completely against everything it stands for. 

Not too mention - lets say its bumped to get a liberal majority.  Next time the Republicans are in control (which honestly could be sooner than some realize), first thing they will do is bump it again. How long before we have 150 or even 250 Supreme Court Justices?

 

I've said this before. There needs to be some discussion and COOPERATION between parties.

Right now, it seems decisions and opinions are made depending upon what the other side wants - no rationality or common sense comes into play.

You're against gun violence?  Oh, well we are for it and think its a constitutional right!  Its like that from both sides on everything.

 

I think laws need to change drastically.  I think gun offenses should be so severe that people are scared to take them outside he home.

I think the Federal Govt needs to figure out a way to make gun crimes Federal crimes.  Take away the power of each state, that way one is not tough on the criminals, while another is soft.  People in all 50 states need to suffer if they commit any type of crime using a gun - from shooting it, all the way down to flashing it at someone on the highway (happens regularly in this country BTW).  Hopefully this will cause people to leave their guns at home and actually lock away those that use them.

IMO, its going go take something like this for people to start believing the government is taking their safety seriously, which should slow the gun sales - its no coincidence that when "Defund the Police" was sweeping the country, gun sales were going through the roof.  People feared their safety was being threatened.

 

All semi/full auto rifles need to be banned overnight.  Before anyone has time to react.  There is no need for a citizen to own something that is so destructive.

You don't hunt with it.  They are not good for home protection.  There only use is to kill a lot of people in a short amount of time. 

Until this is done, its easy to say that no one is serious about fixing our gun problem.    

     

 

 

 

[marbles]

4 minutes ago, spacemunky said:

That 'Wild West' mindset is still very much present.

 

I used to game online with a bunch of guys mostly from the Southern US. Nice guys, but don't get them started on politics and guns 

 

Was odd to me how they have to have their gun on them to go to the store for milk and bread.

 

Happy to be in Canada 🇨🇦 

We have NO  GUNS ALLOWED signs everywhere.  Its at the point that you don't even notice them anymore.

I know people that don't leave their house, without being armed.  Even to check the mail.  

That's the mindset (at least in Texas).  Truth is, those people don't scare me.  They respect the weapon and what it can do.

However, we also have the gun nuts.  Two hands, and a closet full of weapons that are not good for self defense or hunting.  These are the people I worry about.

I worry that they or someone they know will lose it one day.  These types of people should be on some type of watch list.  Their social media should be monitored regularly.  How many times do I have to hear about a mass shooting, and then find out their socal media was full of hateful things?    

 

[MrSpaM]

People keep saying not a lot can be done, but the idea that a 16 year old child can walk in to what is the equivalent of Tesco's in America and buy an assault rifle and a bullet proof vest is beyond ridiculous

 

They seriously don't even need a license in some states, you can buy one as easily as buying a can of beans

 

The idea that nothing can be done about this is just mind blowing

 

[Foxdiamond]

1 hour ago, spacemunky said:

That 'Wild West' mindset is still very much present.

 

I used to game online with a bunch of guys mostly from the Southern US. Nice guys, but don't get them started on politics and guns 

 

Was odd to me how they have to have their gun on them to go to the store for milk and bread.

 

Happy to be in Canada 🇨🇦 

I remember some years ago looking at a holiday train tour brochure that covered Canada and the US. The US section advised of taking extra care there. No such alert on the Canadian pages. If I could have afforded to go Canada suddenly seemed more attractive 

[Fox1norfolk]

1 hour ago, MrSpaM said:

People keep saying not a lot can be done, but the idea that a 16 year old child can walk in to what is the equivalent of Tesco's in America and buy an assault rifle and a bullet proof vest is beyond ridiculous

 

They seriously don't even need a license in some states, you can buy one as easily as buying a can of beans

 

The idea that nothing can be done about this is just mind blowing

 

It is crazy, yet they cannot buy a drink until they are 21. Additionally the laws on drinking ban any drinking in a public place, yet you can carry a gun in a public place.

[Detroit Blues]

2 hours ago, marbles said:

This the only part I dont agree with.

Adding Justices simply because the opposing party holds it is a nasty proposition.  Its set up the way it is for a reason, and changing it because you may or may not like a decision goes completely against everything it stands for. 

Not too mention - lets say its bumped to get a liberal majority.  Next time the Republicans are in control (which honestly could be sooner than some realize), first thing they will do is bump it again. How long before we have 150 or even 250 Supreme Court Justices?

 

I've said this before. There needs to be some discussion and COOPERATION between parties.

Right now, it seems decisions and opinions are made depending upon what the other side wants - no rationality or common sense comes into play.

You're against gun violence?  Oh, well we are for it and think its a constitutional right!  Its like that from both sides on everything.

 

I think laws need to change drastically.  I think gun offenses should be so severe that people are scared to take them outside he home.

I think the Federal Govt needs to figure out a way to make gun crimes Federal crimes.  Take away the power of each state, that way one is not tough on the criminals, while another is soft.  People in all 50 states need to suffer if they commit any type of crime using a gun - from shooting it, all the way down to flashing it at someone on the highway (happens regularly in this country BTW).  Hopefully this will cause people to leave their guns at home and actually lock away those that use them.

IMO, its going go take something like this for people to start believing the government is taking their safety seriously, which should slow the gun sales - its no coincidence that when "Defund the Police" was sweeping the country, gun sales were going through the roof.  People feared their safety was being threatened.

 

All semi/full auto rifles need to be banned overnight.  Before anyone has time to react.  There is no need for a citizen to own something that is so destructive.

You don't hunt with it.  They are not good for home protection.  There only use is to kill a lot of people in a short amount of time. 

Until this is done, its easy to say that no one is serious about fixing our gun problem.    

     

 

 

 

 

 I would have agreed with you five or ten years ago. But much has changed since then, and i fear that you're still operating under the premise of some outdated assumptions:
 

1) Republicans are no longer interested in cooperation and compromise. They are using the same strategy for Biden that they used against Obama - stop him from passing any legislation and then use all of the problems that weren't addressed during his presidency as campaign material to make it seem like the Democrats won't fix the average American's problems.

 

Unfortunately, Biden fell into the trap because he thought he could work with Republicans like he did back in the 80s and 90s. The problem is, that Republican Party is gone. The Republican Party of Reagan and McCain died when they gave Trump the nomination. This is no longer an alternate political party that just has some different ideas/values than the Democrats have. There are no longer "two" options.

 

The Republican Party does not share the same reality as the Democrats have. The Republican Party operates with "alternate facts," and deals in conspiracy thinking. The Republican Party is made up of white nationalists, neo-nazis, flat earthers, climate science deniers, and religious zealots. The way they operate is authoritarian and fascist in nature. 

 

The Democratic party needs to operate under the assumption that the Republican Party will not help them in any meaningful way. Therefore, there is no reason to debate with them on the house/senate floor. There's no reason to ask for their votes to pass any legislation. Democrats need to secure enough power so that they can pass any legislation they want without needing a single Republican vote, because they are not going to get any - No Matter how moderate the policy is, or how dire the situation is. In fact, they need to give themselves enough of a buffer to stop a conservative democrat like Joe Manchin from halting the progress of the Democratic Party.

 

If we operated under that assumption back in 2008, when the democrats owned all 3 branches of government, we could have passed Medicare for all. Instead we got a neutered version of the Heritage Foundation's healthcare plan, which was created by a conservative think tank. The Democrats negotiated with the Republicans to form a consensus. Then, unsurprisingly, the Republicans voted against the compromised legislation they helped create. Finally, to add a shit covered cherry on top of this government sundae, the conservative supreme court justices removed the tax penalty which essentially made the program toothless.

 

There is no longer a position of enlightened centrism, where the middle between both parties represents the political desires of the average American. The Republican party has moved so far to the right, that a compromise between the two parties is still a far right position (this is called the overton window).

 

2) You don't want to pack the court? Well, the problem is, the Republican's have already packed the court with conservative justices. They broke hundreds of years of precedent by refusing to allow Obama to select a supreme court justice in his final year because "the people should decide during the next Presidential Election." Then they followed it up with jamming Amy Comey Barrett through the nomination process 3 days before the following presidential election. 

 

They've already used their Republican packed court to overturn Roe vs Wade. The longer the Democrats wait, the more damage the Supreme Court will do. The Democratic Party is in this position because they have chosen to take the high road. Where has that gotten them?

 

We can't compete in the legislative arena operating on high minded principles when the opposition is willing to gerrymander, intimidate voters, cooperate with foreign powers against domestic interests, and attempt to overthrow the federal government when they lose elections. If the Republicans won't fight fair, then the Democrats must meet them in kind. Until the Democratic Party can pass laws to eliminate these loopholes, they have to use those loopholes as effectively as the Republicans do.

 

3) Severity of sentencing does not stop people from committing crimes (look up all the research done on this). Mandatory minimums will just further increase America's already shameful prison population, and continue to punish people of color at an increased rate compared to the population. If anything, we need to go in the other direction and end the war on drugs. Most of the gun crime comes from the war on drugs. Gangs fight over territory using weapons that they buy using the sale of drugs. Legalization and regulation of narcotics will starve organized crime from having a reliable income source, and give them less to fight over. The same thing needs to happen with prostitution.

 

We learned from the 1920's that prohibiting alcohol created a niche that Organized Crime was able to exploit. When we legalized and regulated alcohol, we took power away from the gangs. 

 

Edited 25 May 2022 by Detroit Blues

[SpacedX]

I notice Ted Cruz has once again wasted no time pushing his twisted personal agenda and vested interests on the back of this tragedy. 

[Zear0]

[bovril]

Just now, Zear0 said:

I'm guessing this is American as nobody else would use the shooting to make a really weird point about mask wearing. 

[bovril]

such a weird country and it's depressing how much their neuroses influence the discourse in the UK

[Jattdogg]

1 hour ago, Foxdiamond said:

I remember some years ago looking at a holiday train tour brochure that covered Canada and the US. The US section advised of taking extra care there. No such alert on the Canadian pages. If I could have afforded to go Canada suddenly seemed more attractive 

We have some illegal issues with guns here and the occasional gun crime from law abiding citizens but nothing remotely close to the US.

 

It's a mindshift, culture shift that will never happen because of polarization and an absolute belief of the right to arms regardless of political affiliation (although likely more pushback from repubs).

 

Restricting automatic r semiautomatic? They will cry about illegal aliens (cartels etc) bringing said guns into the country  therefore they need the same type or better yet bigger and more destructive. The paranoia is unbelievable . You cant keep going bigger and deadlier that doesn't solve shit.

 

The only way this might work is if the country is carved up into democratic america and republican america. Might see change on the democratic side....might.

 

I am willing to bet that more people than not want change but the politicians won't let it happen. Consolation?

 

I am no expert, just an arm chair canadian.