US Gun Violence

[Bellend Sebastian]

1 minute ago, Jattdogg said:

We have some illegal issues with guns here and the occasional gun crime from law abiding citizens but nothing remotely close to the US.

 

It's a mindshift, culture shift that will never happen because of polarization and an absolute belief of the right to arms regardless of political affiliation (although likely more pushback from repubs).

 

Restricting automatic r semiautomatic? They will cry about illegal aliens (cartels etc) bringing said guns into the country  therefore they need the same type or better yet bigger and more destructive. The paranoia is unbelievable . You cant keep going bigger and deadlier that doesn't solve shit.

 

The only way this might work is if the country is carved up into democratic america and republican america. Might see change on the democratic side....might.

 

I am willing to bet that more people than not want change but the politicians won't let it happen. Consolation?

 

I am no expert, just an arm chair canadian.

 

 

 

 

I was thinking this myself. I follow the Patriot Takes account on Twitter, who has taken it upon himself to monitor the American right wing, and it's frankly terrifying not only how unhinged it is but how much of the mad stuff is now perilously close to mainstream politics. The difference between them and regular Americans (or radical leftists as they call them) is so huge I don't really see how they can coexist

[marbles]

@Detroit Blues

I liked your post, until I read some of the same trash/hyperbole they spew on twitter/reddit

 

I lean a lot more right than left - so please tell me which of these categories I fall into....

I'm not a white nationalist or neo-nazi.  Don't think the earth is flat.  Never once denied climate issues, and although raised Catholic do not believe in religion.

53 minutes ago, Detroit Blues said:

 The Republican Party is made up of white nationalists, neo-nazis, flat earthers, climate science deniers, and religious zealots.

Stating things like this is no different than when Republican candidates say all Dems want to "take your guns by force" and "Release all prisoners to rape and kill your loved ones".  Its hyperbole, and only works on the unintelligent.

 

You seem to be living in a world where its all the Republicans fault, and the Democrats are trying everything in their power to make this a wonderful place.

That's simply not true.  If you only read literature from one standpoint.  Only run in certain circles and close your ears to opposing views , you are missing a lot.

Am I saying the Dems are all wrong? NO.  Obviously I agree with some things, just not all.  There is nothing wrong with that.  What there is something wrong with, is blindly following the left or right without ever questioning them.

Until people stop making decisions based on party lines, and start making them based on what's best for the country, we will continue this downward spiral.   

 

53 minutes ago, Detroit Blues said:

3) Severity of sentencing does not stop people from committing crimes (look up all the research done on this). Mandatory minimums will just further increase America's already shameful prison population, and continue to punish people of color at an increased rate compared to the population. If anything, we need to go in the other direction and end the war on drugs. Most of the gun crime comes from the war on drugs. Gangs fight over territory using weapons that they buy using the sale of drugs. Legalization and regulation of narcotics will starve organized crime from having a reliable income source, and give them less to fight over. The same thing needs to happen with prostitution.

Yes and no.

It will lead to more inmates.  Combat that by legalizing some drugs, and releasing those prisoners.

I'm sorry.  Talking to criminals and pleading with them will not stop gun violence - how has talking and pleading worked out for Ukraine?

In all actuality, prison sentences do in fact stop people from committing crimes.  They are locked up, where they can no longer hurt innocent people.,

You want to stop gun violence, its going to take a lot more than education to do it.   Its going to take some drastic measure. 

 

Ever heard the saying “listen to both sides, the truth is somewhere in the middle”?

That’s where I try to hang out.  

 

 

Edited 25 May 2022 by marbles

[Daggers]

Thank god, at last, someone has finally solved the problem of school shootings: close the schools.

 

 

 

[WigstonWanderer]

7 hours ago, spacemunky said:

That 'Wild West' mindset is still very much present.

 

I used to game online with a bunch of guys mostly from the Southern US. Nice guys, but don't get them started on politics and guns 

 

Was odd to me how they have to have their gun on them to go to the store for milk and bread.

 

Happy to be in Canada 🇨🇦 

Think it was Robin Williams who said Canada was like a really nice apartment situated above a meth lab.

[urban.spaceman]

 

[urban.spaceman]

When is the right time to start calling them Republicvnts?

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61585716

 

A reasonable primer on US viewpoints towards guns for the uninitiated.

 

"What is less clear to those on the outside is why a document written nearly 250 years ago in response to a revolutionary war still has such resonance in 2022."

 

This could apply to other things than gun control too - that there are still people who are "originalists", let alone so many of them on the highest court in the land, is bizarre to me. Guys, the past doesn't need to have that much influence over the future.

[leicsmac]

The Onion not messing around, then.

[marbles]

The irony here

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/will-guns-be-allowed-at-the-nra-forum-in-texas-on-friday/ar-AAXJx0R?ocid=uxbndlbing

[leicsmac]

31 minutes ago, marbles said:

The irony here

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/will-guns-be-allowed-at-the-nra-forum-in-texas-on-friday/ar-AAXJx0R?ocid=uxbndlbing

Yep.

 

NRA in hypocrisy shocker.

[420Hashish]

Criminals will still find a way to get their hands on illegal firearms. It's not a coincidence that most shootings occur in states or cities with very strict gun laws. It's because most citizens aren't armed so they're easy targets for these psychos. 

 

Besides, a lot of these people are on the FBI watchlist, but they don't act on it. 

[The Year Of The Fox]

19 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

I can still remember the feeling around the country after Dunblane. I was at primary school too. The horror, the anxiety, the sadness and grief of the parents and teachers. 

 

America will never change, they'll never learn. If someone's right to own a deadly weapon exceeds the rights of your child to be safe at school, you're lost as a society. If you've got members of society whose first reaction to an easily preventable tragedy like this is to promote gun rights, you're lost as a society.

 

Third world country in a ****ing Gucci belt.

Never been because I don’t want to go, but this echos my thoughts of the USA entirely 

Edited 26 May 2022 by The Year Of The Fox

[Crinklyfox]

Many wise words in this thread, I'll only offer one suggestion:

 

Don't make guns illegal.  The fearful public will not accept this no matter how many atrocities are committed.  Make the carrying of guns in a public place illegal.  This will still allow the legal ownership of guns for 'home defence' but give police a method of clamping down on those who carry them around in public.  Some sensible targeting would get some of the bad guys off the streets.

[gerblod]

On 25/05/2022 at 05:38, marbles said:

Staring this because we end up with discussions of gun laws every time there is a shooting.

 

What would your solution be to the gun problem in the US?

I know, I know.  I would take them all away.  No easy answer -explain what you would do, and how you would achieve it.

Lets have  adiscussion.

I've become deeply cynical about this issue and, for a long time, I've been disturbed and irritated by the way our media appear to wish to fill air time with the self-inflicted tragedies that take place in a foreign country.

Out come the violins and the endless debate about what is wrong with the culture of the US.

American society evinces a massive sense of insecurity - because it is composed of antagonistic societies. The attempt to unite these separate societies - white European, African Negro, Hispanic, Jewish, Asian et al, in slavish adherence to its flag and its constitution belies the deep antagonisms within its boundaries. There are a significant number of incredibly indoctrinated, naive, prejudiced and potentially violent people amongst a population, who it appears, from state to state, have the freedom, given within its constitution, to murder any interloper who trespasses on their land. This is what I glean from watching American factual and fictional media outlets. Americans appear to be proud of their country, yet antagonistic to anyone who does not share their racial characteristics or their belief system.

I cannot change them and it appears that no massacre, however great, will galvanise them to change. So, while deeply saddened by this madness, I prefer to distance myself from the hand-wringing charade which is wheeled into the myriad studios every time this violence inevitably happens. The hypocrisy of this nation is incredible to behold.

[HighPeakFox]

If any of you are so minded, get hold of 'The Secret Team' by Col. L. Fletcher Prouty. I've barely started it yet I already know more about how things are done in the USA (and indeed the whole world) than I did when I started.

[marbles]

1 hour ago, HighPeakFox said:

If any of you are so minded, get hold of 'The Secret Team' by Col. L. Fletcher Prouty. I've barely started it yet I already know more about how things are done in the USA (and indeed the whole world) than I did when I started.

Just looked this up and it’s endorsed by Jesse Ventura - which makes me skeptical since he is a known conspiracy nut.

You sure about this?

Edited 26 May 2022 by marbles

[Scotch]

I watched one of the 'Audit the auditor' videos a while back and it really took me aback. 

 

It was two guys walking down a main street in America whith those crazy AR15's strapped to their chest. The police came and in this instance he was really cool. Tried being friendly and jovial with the guys but ultimately, it came down to the fact that the policeman wasn't allowed to ask what the guys were doing wandering around with semi automatic rifles in their arms. He wasn't allowed to ask their names. He wasn't allowed to ask if they had open carry permits.... I mean, how do you police that? Those guys weren't up to anything dodgy but if they were, there is litteraly nothing that, that policeman could of done about it until AFTER they started shooting and by then it's too late. 

 

It's incredibly naive to believe that you could ban guns in America. Comparisons can't be drawn to the likes of islands like the UK or Australia. That's silly but I point blank refuse to believe that there isn't measures that can be taken that would help reduce these things from happening. To drive a car in the US you have to take lessons and then a test to receive a licence, it should be the same with guns. Mandatory fire arms training. Stricter background checks. Longer waiting times to enforce all these steps, being asked if you really need a semi automatic rifle. Mandatory to show your carry permit when asked to ensure you're situation hasn't changed and you are still permitted to own a gun. All gun owners being responsible in the crimes that their gun is used in to encourage better and safer storage of weapons... Insanely harsh penalties for anyone caught with illeagal firearms to discourage. 

 

None of this will stop gun crime in America. Ofcourse it won't but if it reduces it.... surely its worth it? And you can't tell me that restricting access to guns won't reduce it. For every 100 people in America, there are 120 guns... Thats just Crazy!

 

Americans are crazy... they are not stupid. They know the cost of their current gun laws are the occasional classroom full of 10 year olds, they just don't care. 

[RoboFox]

19 hours ago, Detroit Blues said:

The sad reality is there are no solutions that can be implemented that Republicans will agree to. They control enough of the senate to stop any resolutions from being called to a vote. They control a supermajority of the supreme court, which would declare unconstitutional most of the laws that have been suggested on here.

 

Lobbying is considered protected speech, and any laws limiting the NRA (or other organizations) from lobbying to the US government would be against the first amendment right to free speech.

Political donations and advertisements are also a form of protected speech based on the Citizen's United ruling.

The supreme court has interpreted the 2nd amendment to guarantee the right of individual citizens to own weapons (up until the 70s it was not interpreted this way, and only protected the rights of citizens to maintain a militia). Many laws restricting access would be ruled unconstitutional. 

 

So in order to make change, the following has to happen:

1) A culture change where the majority of Americans step up to demand change from our government, and continue the push for gun control change for generations (which is how long it will take steps 2 and 3)

2) That change be reflected in grassroots political action - fundraising, voting, etc. to elect candidates that will shift the current political paradigm. Democrats need to control at least 60/100 seats on the senate to bypass a filibuster. They need to control the presidency to by pass a veto. They need to change state governments to be more liberal as well, since many laws are at the state level. 

3) A change in power within the supreme court. Replace the 6-3 conservative majority with at least a 5-4 liberal majority, by replacing supreme court justices over the generations as current members die/retire. OR have the balls to pack the court and and add at least 4 more supreme court justices spots, and push through liberal candidates using the filibuster proof majority in the senate. With a majority on the supreme court, they then need cases to overturn conservative legal precedent and re-interpret the second amendment as a communal right to bear arms, and not an individual's right to own firearms.

4) Universal healthcare to make mental health care accessible and affordable.

5) Laws at the federal and state level, and possibly a constitutional amendment enacting restrictions on gun ownership (to even an outright ban). After which comes the problem of taking/buying back the hundreds of millions of firearms from people who do not want to give them up.

 

 

 

I would add to this term lengths for shitty senators and Supreme Court Justices. 

[HighPeakFox]

8 hours ago, marbles said:

Just looked this up and it’s endorsed by Jesse Ventura - which makes me skeptical since he is a known conspiracy nut.

You sure about this?

Using that logic, you'd never believe anything said by anyone. 

 

Perhaps you should do your own due diligence on L. Fletcher Prouty, as I did, rather than dismiss it because of one man who foreworded the re-issue 38 years later. 

 

You could also find him on YouTube, and you'd soon realise the importance of what he has/had to say. 

Edited 26 May 2022 by HighPeakFox

[urban.spaceman]

3 hours ago, The Year Of The Fox said:

Never been because I don’t want to go, but this echos my thoughts of the USA entirely 

That's the saddest thing though, it's one of the most breathtakingly beautiful places on earth. I've been lucky enough to work on conservation projects out in forests, deserts and rivers in Utah, Arizona and Nevada and I would do it again in a heartbeat because it's so worth it for the soul. But culturally and politically they're so badly behind everyone else.

 

They're one of the only countries on earth where they have zero annual paid leave. They're the only country on earth where you have to pay income tax if you're living abroad. Their healthcare system - well it goes without saying how ****ing vile it is. They're told they're the country with the most freedom when in reality they're in captivity and they don't even know it. They sneer at everyone else while refusing to even acknowledge their own problems. George Carlin's skit about the American Dream is so ****ing prescient.

[davieG]

America's gun culture - in seven charts

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41488081

[LCGraphix]

Can't see this ever changing and frankly these events are no longer shocking, Why anyone in the general public actually NEEDS a gun is beyond me. I cant see guns ever going in the US but if change was to be applied, 1)Make Guns stupidly expensive to ward off prospective buyers. 2) they need to stop all sales in supermarkets, the fact you can buy a loaf, some beans, a few rounds of ammo and a pistol whilst doing your weekly shop is moronic, 3) Stop the gun shows, If your that hell bent on needing a Gun only pistols can be bought at specialist places absaloutly no need for the semi automatic rifles etc @marblescan prob give a better understanding of what artillery can be bought at these shows etc but from what ive seen on TV and in the Media, its enough to start a small war. 4) as others have said Gun safes are a must, my step father in law had two hunting rifles a while back, (why, i have no idea) but had to keep them locked away and was policed on a regular basis. 5) A zero carry law is a must in all states, if you found with a weapon on you, instant jail time and a guarentee you can no longer purchase a gun in the future. Obv you will still get those getting guns the illegal way, and the authorities will have to deal with them seperatly. honestly i cant see this ever really changing though, both side of the government will be in disagreement, what is it going to take for things to change??

 

[Captain...]

6 hours ago, 420Hashish said:

Criminals will still find a way to get their hands on illegal firearms. It's not a coincidence that most shootings occur in states or cities with very strict gun laws. It's because most citizens aren't armed so they're easy targets for these psychos. 

 

Besides, a lot of these people are on the FBI watchlist, but they don't act on it. 

Criminals find ways to get guns in every country, but no other country has a problem with mass shootings like the US.

 

I don't agree with the second sentence, https://news.sky.com/story/texas-school-shooting-the-six-maps-and-charts-which-show-the-state-of-mass-gun-violence-in-the-us-12621141 every state suffers from shootings in the US, it is a nationwide phenomenon. Texas doesn't have particularly strict laws, California has the strictest gun laws and one of the lowest incidents of gun violence.

 

Strict gun laws is not the only thing that will stop these senseless deaths but it will contribute on a legislative level and help contribute to the much needed culture change.

[Captain...]

2 hours ago, Scotch said:

 

It was two guys walking down a main street in America whith those crazy AR15's strapped to their chest. The police came and in this instance he was really cool. Tried being friendly and jovial with the guys but ultimately, it came down to the fact that the policeman wasn't allowed to ask what the guys were doing wandering around with semi automatic rifles in their arms. He wasn't allowed to ask their names. He wasn't allowed to ask if they had open carry permits.... I mean, how do you police that? Those guys weren't up to anything dodgy but if they were, there is litteraly nothing that, that policeman could of done about it until AFTER they started shooting and by then it's too late.

This bit is the most concerning, you can't have someone carrying lethal weapons and not be able to question them. It should not be normal to carry guns in public.

[Detroit Blues]

2 hours ago, Timmys Super Foxes said:

Can't see this ever changing and frankly these events are no longer shocking, Why anyone in the general public actually NEEDS a gun is beyond me. I cant see guns ever going in the US but if change was to be applied, 1)Make Guns stupidly expensive to ward off prospective buyers. 2) they need to stop all sales in supermarkets, the fact you can buy a loaf, some beans, a few rounds of ammo and a pistol whilst doing your weekly shop is moronic, 3) Stop the gun shows, If your that hell bent on needing a Gun only pistols can be bought at specialist places absaloutly no need for the semi automatic rifles etc @marblescan prob give a better understanding of what artillery can be bought at these shows etc but from what ive seen on TV and in the Media, its enough to start a small war. 4) as others have said Gun safes are a must, my step father in law had two hunting rifles a while back, (why, i have no idea) but had to keep them locked away and was policed on a regular basis. 5) A zero carry law is a must in all states, if you found with a weapon on you, instant jail time and a guarentee you can no longer purchase a gun in the future. Obv you will still get those getting guns the illegal way, and the authorities will have to deal with them seperatly. honestly i cant see this ever really changing though, both side of the government will be in disagreement, what is it going to take for things to change??

 

 

The thing that makes passing Gun Control legislation harder is that there are good reasons to own a gun. The United States is a large country with a lot of wilderness. In my state alone, hunting and fishing is an 11 Billion Dollar industry. In rural areas, hunting is as common a pastime as football. Most people own a gun, and participate in the "sport." The day deer hunting season opens is literally a holiday in rural communities. Many small towns rely on the tourism from people coming from the city/suburbs up to hunt. It supports restaurants, bars, gas stations, supply shops, etc. There's an entire economy based around it. If hunting goes away, so do those cities.

 

The vast nature of the country also poses law enforcement challenges. In some parts of the country, the size of the area that needs to be policed, and the relative low population density makes response times long enough that people feel it necessary to have the means to protect themselves (from both criminals and Bears/Wolves/Cougars/etc.) If you have a problem out in these parts of the country, you may be 15-30 minutes away from a police officer arriving, and the nearest hospital may be more than an hour drive away. 

 

These are very real reasons why many people in rural areas, that heavily vote Republican, are so attached to their guns. It makes it all the harder to convince them that they need to give up their freedom to help people hundreds of miles away. Most of these people live in communities that are not plagued by gun violence, and they may not interact with people from communities that are effected by gun violence. To them, it's a problem for city folk / aka liberals. 

 

If you've watched the Wire or We Own The City, you'd probably understand that in more urban environments, people do not trust the police to protect them. In fact, the Police often time are seen as just another gang that is likely to abuse you. So many people in these neighborhoods feel like they need to carry a firearm to protect themselves, their businesses, their family, etc. I understand that this mentality makes this problem worse, but i understand their line of thinking. They're not wrong to feel that way, considering that pandora's box was opened decades ago, and everyone else around them has a gun. How would you feel being the only person who isn't carrying?

 

In order to make changes to the gun laws in America, you have to convince these people to willingly give up their freedom and their personal feeling of safety and security, to rely on the government to protect them. The same government that has countless times failed them.