England - Always a bridesmaid, or overhyped?

[Sly]

I’ve seen a lot of stick aimed at this England team since last night. Failing to win big games. 
 

In fairness, I believe hand on heart that England / France are the two best teams in the world right now. Only one team can lift the World Cup, every four years.

 

So you think, historically, how have we faired in major championships. Do we overhype this team, or are we always the bridesmaid? 

1950 WC - Lost to USA / Spain, dumped out in the group stage. Spain finished 4th.

 

1954 WC - Lost to Uruguay in the QF, who finished 4th. 
 

1958 WC - Lost in a group stage playoff to the Soviet Union. Who themselves were eliminated in the QF by hosts Sweden. 
 

1962 WC - Lost to Brazil in the QF, who became Champions. 
 

1966 WC - Winners

 

1968 EC - Finished 3rd, losing to 2nd placed Yugoslavia in the SF.

 

1970 WC - Lost to West Germany in the QF, who finished 4th. 

1972 EC - Lost to West Germany in QF qualifying. Who went on to win the tournament.
 

1974 WC - Lost to Poland in Qualifying, so didn’t even make the World Cup. Poland finished 3rd. 

1976 EC - Knocked out by Czechoslovakia in qualifying, who went on to win the tournament.
 

1978 WC - Lost to Italy in Qualifying, so didn’t even make the World Cup. Italy finished 4th.

 

1980 EC - Knocked out in the group stage by Belgium / Italy. Belgium finished 2nd, Italy finished 4th. 

 

1982 WC - Knocked out in 2nd group stage, by eventual runners up West Germany.  

1984 EC - Knocked out in qualifying by Denmark. Denmark lost in the SF. 

 

1986 WC - Lost in the QF against Argentina. Who won the tournament. 
 

1988 EC - Knocked out at the group stage by Soviet Union / Netherlands. Both teams actually contested the final. 

 

1990 WC - Lost in the SF against West Germany on penalties. Who won the tournament. 
 

1992 EC - Knocked out by Sweden and Denmark. Denmark won the tournament. 

 

1994 WC - Didn’t qualify, finished behind Netherlands / Norway. Norway got knocked out in the group stage. Netherlands made the QF. 
 

1996 EC - Lost in the SF to Germany, who went on to win the tournament. 

 

1998 WC - Lost to Argentina in the R16, who themselves then lost to Netherlands in the QF. 
 

2000 EC - Knocked out by Portugal / Romania in the group stage. Portugal lost in the SF. 

 

2002 WC - Lost to Brazil in the QF, who went on to win the tournament. 
 

2004 EC - Lost to Portugal in the QF on penalties. Who themselves lost in the final.

 

2006 WC - Lost to Portugal in the QF on penalties, who themselves went out in the SF. 

2008 EC - Knocked out by Croatia / Russia in qualifying. Russia lost in the SF. 

 

2010 WC - Lost to Germany in the R16, who finished 4th. 
 

2012 EC - Lost to Italy on penalties in the QF, who themselves lost in the final. 

 

2014 WC - Knocked out in the group stage by Costa Rica and Uruguay. 
 

2016 EC - Knocked out by Iceland in the R16. Iceland knocked out in the QF. 

 

2018 WC - 4th place, losing to Croatia in the SF.

 

2020 EC - Losing finalist.

 

2022 WC - Lost in the QF to France …..

 

2022 aside, In major tournaments, England have been eliminated by the finalist in 16 out of the 32 (50%) tournaments they’ve tried to qualify for. (1966 /2022 removed).
 

That maybe points to them being the perennial bridesmaids, with some justification of not being able to get over the line. 

 

 

[foxfanazer]

I think we're massively overhyped. We don't have a single world class player in the side. Foden and Bellingham have potential to be but other than that we have a bunch of plodders and a negative manager 

[Vacamion]

 

Until we pick and play in-form players rather than managers' favourites, we will never win anything.

 

 

[Aus Fox]

I think we always like to build ourselves up a bit, but we always have weaknesses. Due I would say to past failures our biggest weakness appears to be mental.

You look at how many of the above games were lost on extra time or penalties shows over long periods of time we struggle to strike in the big moments - we are the Tottenham Hotspur of international football.

For me the squad of 2006 is still the best we’ve taken to a World Cup - we appeared to have genuine quality in every position - Cole, Neville, Campbell, Terry, Rio Ferdinand at the back, Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes, Beckham, Joe Cole, Hargreaves in midfield and Rooney and Owen up top - Still think Sol Campbells extra time header should have stood! 
Again though, when the big moments came around despite a squad of winners at club level, we just can’t seem to get over the mental hurdle or play well when the pressure is on. 

[Samilktray]

11 minutes ago, foxfanazer said:

I think we're massively overhyped. We don't have a single world class player in the side. Foden and Bellingham have potential to be but other than that we have a bunch of plodders and a negative manager 

It’s clearly not a team full of plodders  what a daft thing to say, who are these plodders?

[CosbehFox]

Genuinely believe the idea of ‘over hype’ is a media creation. Everyone expected pre tournament for us to get at QFs and get knocked out. 
 

You lay out those previous tournaments - there was long spells where we weren’t even in the best 10 teams during then. 
 

Then 96 to 06 era is where we blew it. The team was utter pants than until recently - if you look at some of the squads from 2010, filled with some utter crap. 
 

International sport is wholly unique - we look at ourselves for glorious failure but the likes of Netherlands, Brazil, Argentina (until very recently) have all suffered poor records and droughts. Nations like Croatia have failed at the final stage. If the World Cup was like a FA Cup annual knockout, you’d probably view it with different eyes 

[foxfanazer]

13 minutes ago, Samilktray said:

It’s clearly not a team full of plodders  what a daft thing to say, who are these plodders?

OK plodders is harsh

 

But most of them are fairly average 

Edited 11 December 2022 by foxfanazer

[Mark_w]

32 minutes ago, Samilktray said:

It’s clearly not a team full of plodders  what a daft thing to say, who are these plodders?

They're mainly just Maguire.

[whoareyaaa]

I think mentality plays a massive part and is why teams like Italy beat us, Croatia and Iceland in recent times, stronger mentality. (Even Kane bottled it yesterday)

 

This mentality issue could be down to the players not really caring enough, mentally not strong enough or stem from a weak minded manager.

 

Edited 11 December 2022 by whoareyaaa

[Sly]

54 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

Genuinely believe the idea of ‘over hype’ is a media creation. Everyone expected pre tournament for us to get at QFs and get knocked out. 
 

You lay out those previous tournaments - there was long spells where we weren’t even in the best 10 teams during then. 
 

Then 96 to 06 era is where we blew it. The team was utter pants than until recently - if you look at some of the squads from 2010, filled with some utter crap. 
 

International sport is wholly unique - we look at ourselves for glorious failure but the likes of Netherlands, Brazil, Argentina (until very recently) have all suffered poor records and droughts. Nations like Croatia have failed at the final stage. If the World Cup was like a FA Cup annual knockout, you’d probably view it with different eyes 

If it was played every year like an FA cup, we’d have undoubtedly picked up more. 
 

MAINLY because Southgate might have been axed having this squad of players a few years ago 

[Sly]

26 minutes ago, Mark_w said:

They're mainly just Maguire.

Maguire plays so much better for England though. He is a really good player in the right system. That isn’t how Manchester United use him. 

[foxfanazer]

13 minutes ago, whoareyaaa said:

I think mentality plays a massive part and is why teams like Italy beat us, Croatia and Iceland in recent times, stronger mentality. (Even Kane bottled it yesterday)

 

This mentality issue could be down to the players not really caring enough, mentally not strong enough or stem from a weak minded manager.

 

We play to stay in games for as long as possible instead of imposing ourselves. It's a shit mentality from the very start. We need to start playing like plucky underdogs like Morocco etc

[Wasyls Pec Deck]

We have always and currently lack a midfield maestro - like a Pirlo or a Griezmann from last night. Don’t get me wrong we’re going in the right direction, and I think Kalvin Phillips is the closest we have.

 

I’d also like the pundits to have an honest conversation about Harry Kane, and not just because he missed a penalty last night. Prior to the game last night In 4 WC games in this tournament he had 7 shots, 2 on target. That is poor. And for the second WC in a row you really have to question his value to the team. 

[Col city fan]

7 minutes ago, Sly said:

Maguire plays so much better for England though. He is a really good player in the right system. That isn’t how Manchester United use him. 

Maguire is so far off a CB who’s going to be in a World Cup winning side, it’s unbelievable. When we talk about over-hyping our players, Maguire is possibly the best example.

Man Utd have axed him, yet Southgate picks him time after time. He must feel himself he’s undroppable.

Our CB pairing at this World Cup are the weakest link in this team and going forward I’m hoping there’s a clear CB starter for England who’s going to shine for years to come. 
That ain’t Maguire. He can’t run. Literally he’s slower than any ‘top rated’ CB I’ve ever seen 

Edited 11 December 2022 by Col city fan

[Super_horns]

1 hour ago, foxfanazer said:

I think we're massively overhyped. We don't have a single world class player in the side. Foden and Bellingham have potential to be but other than that we have a bunch of plodders and a negative manager 

I think your view on Southgate depends on how good you feel the squad is overall .

There is some great talent particularly attacking wise but we still have a few faults which cost us or we always find a way to lose these big games !

[davieG]

17 minutes ago, whoareyaaa said:

I think mentality plays a massive part and is why teams like Italy beat us, Croatia and Iceland in recent times, stronger mentality. (Even Kane bottled it yesterday)

 

This mentality issue could be down to the players not really caring enough, mentally not strong enough or stem from a weak minded manager.

 

I think a lack of belief was evident yesterday, I didn't agree with many pundits or fans who said we gave it a good go I thought we lacked a lot of drive especially when I think back to the effort given by teams in the other games. 

[foxfanazer]

6 minutes ago, Super_horns said:

I think your view on Southgate depends on how good you feel the squad is overall .

There is some great talent particularly attacking wise but we still have a few faults which cost us or we always find a way to lose these big games !

I just think overall we're a bit meh. We're basically the international version of Spurs

[Deebhoy]

For the resources England have, the entire infrastructure, the most popular and money making league in the world, it is repeated failure.

 

Players aren't as good as they are hyped up to be like Kane and Rice. Man City  paid £100 mill for Grealish and yet he rarely starts for both. Baffling.

 

That said England were definitely the better team last night but this thing with penalties is going to haunt you until you can have a world class player like Pirlo who was able to produce magnificent displays regularly.

[reynard]

I think it is an interesting question but I don't think that either is exactly right.

There is a certain amount of arrogance attached to the England football team that stems from the press, the general public and the actual England supporters. This was especially so in the years following the 1966 triumph and though it has waned over the years it is definitely still there. This leads to a raised level of expectation often not commensurate with the actual ability level of the players.

Among the wider public there is also little consideration for the merits or otherwise of the opponents. Forgetting the dreadful mid 1970s  (for England that is) in the past there have generally been a group of between 2 and 6 teams of genuine top quality who at the time England would have struggled to beat on any given occasion. So England would beat very ordinary sides and the level of expectation would rise with each subsequent win. Then the following loss would appear then to be more deflating and catastrophic than it was in reality.

Whether you'd call this over-hyped or over-expectant I'm not sure.

The difference this time is that England actually have some very good players and this combined with the very low standard of the top teams really meant that they were genuine contenders. The results in the group stage against some very poor teams might have raised the levels of expectations but I did think we and France looked the two best teams. The fact that one of our players bottled a penalty wasn't the reason we lost but didn't help. 

So I think they answer to the OP is that it is really a combination of both to which must be added an underlying issue of mentality. Not just from the players but, in this case, from the manager too. 

 

Edited 11 December 2022 by reynard

[Sly]

12 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Maguire is so far off a CB who’s going to be in a World Cup winning side, it’s unbelievable. When we talk about over-hyping our players, Maguire is possibly the best example.

Man Utd have axed him, yet Southgate picks him time after time. He must feel himself he’s undroppable.

Our CB pairing at this World Cup are the weakest link in this team and going forward I’m hoping there’s a clear CB starter for England who’s going to shine for years to come. 
That ain’t Maguire. He can’t run. Literally he’s slower than any ‘top rated’ CB I’ve ever seen 

…… Cannavaro, Maldini, Moore, Mertesaker weren’t exactly racing snakes and managed World Cup wins. 
 

Teams win tournaments. 
 

Maguire isn’t the issue really, we have enough talent in that team to win that game and this World Cup on another day. 

[Nalis]

Boring answer but its been a bit of both.

 

France won through brilliant game management and two great goals. Cant stand watching France but they are the best team in the world and it would take them to have an off day not to retain it.

 

It would have been interesting to see how England would have done against someone slightly below France's level like Brazil or Portugal to gauge where England stand.

 

In terms of previous tournaments there was always overhype bar 2018. The golden generation team was overhyped because the first XI was great on paper but the rest of the squad was poor. This current squad is the best I can remember.

[Nalis]

I know countries like England base world cup success on winning the thing but if you look at world cup performance based on how far teams get, England's overall record isnt actually that bad.

[foxfanazer]

4 minutes ago, Nalis said:

I know countries like England base world cup success on winning the thing but if you look at world cup performance based on how far teams get, England's overall record isnt actually that bad.

We consistently seem to get favorable draws though. The moment we come up against a team we should probably lose to we do

[CosbehFox]

7 minutes ago, Nalis said:

I know countries like England base world cup success on winning the thing but if you look at world cup performance based on how far teams get, England's overall record isnt actually that bad.

Exactly my thoughts

[Nalis]

1 minute ago, foxfanazer said:

We consistently seem to get favorable draws though. The moment we come up against a team we should probably lose to we do

Fair enough but if you look at most big teams they dont usually play other big teams until the quarters at least and a number of those still fall to the mediocre nations.