England - Always a bridesmaid, or overhyped?

[CosbehFox]

2 minutes ago, Nalis said:

Fair enough but if you look at most big teams they dont usually play other big teams until the quarters at least and a number of those still fall to the mediocre nations.

Yep irony is that the same argument could be levelled at two of the semi finalists. Argentina have had a stroll on paper until the QFs
 

The other two come from a really competitive - one of those Croatia, have only beat Canada. 
 

 

[Matt]

Personally don't think there's been much hype this tournament - And it's gradually been played down during the last few tournaments imo.

 

Whether that's because we've all (In general) become accustomed to it, whether it's just me personally and my lack of enthusiasm   

 

But normally it'd be wall to wall coverage, non-stop talk, countdowns to the QF, e.t.c, I didn't see any of that - maybe I just managed to avoid it.

 

I’ve barely heard “It’s Coming Home” or any other football song - probably heard it twice throughout the tournament - normally the songs are played on repeat.

 

The tournament has been good in regards upsets, underdogs, but on a whole regarding quality, the 'big' name players, the 'big' teams, its been awfully poor. France have been the best team, England probably not far behind.

 

Edited 11 December 2022 by Matt

[Mike Oxlong]

Given that typically there’s only 6 or so Teams who have a decent chance of winning each WC over the last 70 years ( of which we are one ) we have massively underperformed 

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

I don't think we get carried away any more than any other "big" nation after some good results, do we? People just take the tabloid headlines and assume it's indicative of the whole country; I'm sure L'Equipe, Bild or Marca have spouted some absolute shite in their time that would seem arrogant.

 

As it is I think most of England's support appreciate where we are in terms of strengths and weaknesses. And I really don't think it's overhyping us to say we *could've* won this tournament, of course we could've. We aren't minnows, however you want to carve it up.

[davieG]

1 hour ago, Nalis said:

Fair enough but if you look at most big teams they dont usually play other big teams until the quarters at least and a number of those still fall to the mediocre nations.

Never having won the EC and in the final only once is an abysmal return.

[bovril]

https://www.worldfootball.net/alltime_table/wm/

 

Not doing too badly. 

[MattFox]

45 minutes ago, bovril said:

https://www.worldfootball.net/alltime_table/wm/

 

Not doing too badly. 

We’ve lost more Quarter Finals than any other team.

 

Where we struggle is we never win 50/50 games against teams better than us or at our level.

 

Our record in the Euros on the other hand is farcical however

[Heathrow fox]

3 hours ago, Nalis said:

I know countries like England base world cup success on winning the thing but if you look at world cup performance based on how far teams get, England's overall record isnt actually that bad.

Not to Have beaten one of the heavyweights in the knockouts on foreign soil is pretty appalling 

[cruzFOX]

I think this young crop of players are really talented and capable of winning games but a tournament is complicated. So many twists and turns along the way some in your favor and some not. 
the powers that be have to analyze why England always fail against top opposition in knock out games? They’ve proven they can beat them in isolated games or friendlies. You could say mental pressure.

If it’s small details and moments like kane said then let’s analyze those. For starters why did England start like they usually do slowly and cautiously inviting the frenchies to draw first blood? I was praying that SG will start differently and put the pressure on the french. This was a mistake imo.

the strategy to contain mbappe was sound but not at the detriment of letting griezman run the midfield or leave giroud unmarked in the box. I’m not saying england didn’t try but they had to do much better than that. did the coaches not do their homework? The ref was terrible should have had another penalty or free kick but did that affect England? Bellingham was good but not as good as he was in the Senegal game. Kane missing his penalty was criminal. He’s a stone cold killer in front of the box. Not much fazes him. He did everything right except dialing down the power level. He over thought it in the moment knowing who he was facing instead of trusting his usual senses. 
yes Lori’s could have guessed correctly but atleast it’s on target - fair play but to spoon it like that will haunt him forever as he never ever does that and will probably never do it again.

[Stinkenzo]

6 hours ago, Vacamion said:

 

Until we pick and play in-form players rather than managers' favourites, we will never win anything.

 

 

So you'd rather go to a world cup with a bunch of players who have never played with each other because they had a good October? I understand your point to an extent, Maddison being the stand out example, but managers spend two years building a side for these tournaments. Pickford and Maguire are good examples of players who always do alright for England despite their club form being questionable at times. 

[The boy Linacre]

Over history we have underperformed I would say.

Lets compare to Europe=
Germany 4 WC’s 3 Euros

Spain 1 WC 2 Euro’s

Italy 4 WC’s 1 Euro

France 2 WC’s 2 Euro’s

Portugal 2 WC sf 1 Euro

Netherlands 3 WCF 1 Euro

England (as big a league as top 3)

1 World Cup, 1 Euro final

Way behind the top 3, we’re comparable with Portugal & that’s wrong!!

But Southgate has got tournament results & we generally have a v good current squad.

Its luck, mentality & mindset, sadly generally we are gallant losers, that’s the distasteful but truthful fact & stats as above.

Interestingly Friday Klinsmann said we should have won the Euro’s final, but we stopped playing & handed control of the game to Italy.

Mentality again.

[Dan LCFC]

We perform to par and act like it's an achievement because we've performed below par in previous tournaments. Nobody in France would've been "proud" if they'd lost to England yesterday and had more shots despite how good England's side supposedly is.

 

Until we start acting like a top team we will be a bridesmaid.

Edited 11 December 2022 by Dan LCFC

[Col city fan]

24 minutes ago, Dan LCFC said:

We perform to par and act like it's an achievement because we've performed below par in previous tournaments. Nobody in France would've been "proud" if they'd lost to England yesterday and had more shots despite how good England's side supposedly is.

 

Until we start acting like a top team we will be a bridesmaid.

Spot on.

We make excuses all the time and give praise to people and to things that aren’t at all praiseworthy. 
It’s become a part of the British mentality. We have kind of learnt a. To be losers and b. That’s completely acceptable. When we DO win something, OBE’s and Knighthoods are given out like confetti.

It’s bound up in the snowflake culture of the country that’s become incredibly prevalent over the past 20 years or so. Did I read that we have more people out of work and claiming welfare at present than ever before. Bound up in covid, yes, but it’s become socially acceptable to be this way too.

Just look at this forum tbf. There are as many posters claiming that England did well as there are stating that we should have done better.

We could and probably should have done better.

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

2 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Spot on.

We make excuses all the time and give praise to people and to things that aren’t at all praiseworthy. 
It’s become a part of the British mentality. We have kind of learnt a. To be losers and b. That’s completely acceptable. When we DO win something, OBE’s and Knighthoods are given out like confetti.

It’s bound up in the snowflake culture of the country that’s become incredibly prevalent over the past 20 years or so. Did I read that we have more people out of work and claiming welfare at present than ever before. Bound up in covid, yes, but it’s become socially acceptable to be this way too.

Just look at this forum tbf. There are as many posters claiming that England did well as there are stating that we should have done better.

We could and probably should have done better.

 

But people were proud of our sides in the 90s? Including yourself? And they achieved exactly the same? It isn't the sign of "snowflake culture" to be proud of an infinitely likeable side for leaving everything on the pitch in 2022. Come on.

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

Sorry but that post linking people thinking we've done alright in a tournament to the amount of people on benefits is ****ing insane.

[KingsX]

Folks, this isn’t rocket science.

 

England have been stunningly consistent in World Cup match results.  You beat the minnows, you mix it up with the decent sides (more often winning), and you lose to the sides that can actually win the World Cup.

 

A few days ago, Michael Cox toted up all England WC match results since 1998 in the Athletic.  I’ve tweaked his data * and anyone can understand what it shows:

 

 

Talent-wise, there’s of room to argue how you have varied.  But results-wise, you’ve been a slightly-better-or-worse version of the same side for at least a quarter century. 

 

 

* added the loss to France, counted results on pens as W or L instead of D, and changed the FIFA ranking category to groups of 10

[Col city fan]

13 minutes ago, KingsX said:

Folks, this isn’t rocket science.

 

England have been stunningly consistent in World Cup match results.  You beat the minnows, you mix it up with the decent sides (more often winning), and you lose to the sides that can actually win the World Cup.

 

A few days ago, Michael Cox toted up all England WC match results since 1998 in the Athletic.  I’ve tweaked his data * and anyone can understand what it shows:

 

 

Talent-wise, there’s of room to argue how you have varied.  But results-wise, you’ve been a slightly-better-or-worse version of the same side for at least a quarter century. 

 

 

* added the loss to France, counted results on pens as W or L instead of D, and changed the FIFA ranking category to groups of 10

Good info.

I don’t see that as ‘over achieving’ in any way, shape or form but it’ll be ok because Harry Kane is a popular media figure and Gareth’s right hand man.

’Doing well’ and achieving would be, in my eyes at least, getting some sort of 50:50 split going on. But the 2:8 ratio is actually pretty damning.

In contemporary Britain it’ll be accepted and argued out somehow. If we want genuine success though, heads should roll really with that evidence. Maybe that’s it though actually. Are people genuinely that bothered anymore?

Edited 11 December 2022 by Col city fan

[Tommy Fresh]

Snowflake culture, just wow 😂

[Jattdogg]

Overhyped.

 

I would say that it is not just down to the players because we have had some good enough squads over the years. Managing plays a big part and we never seem to get them both right at the same time.

 

You need both to win the worldcup and a tiny bit of luck.

 

Keep plugging away i suppose. The dream continues but i am getting older by the year so hurry the fook up lads

 

[Samilktray]

43 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Spot on.

We make excuses all the time and give praise to people and to things that aren’t at all praiseworthy. 
It’s become a part of the British mentality. We have kind of learnt a. To be losers and b. That’s completely acceptable. When we DO win something, OBE’s and Knighthoods are given out like confetti.

It’s bound up in the snowflake culture of the country that’s become incredibly prevalent over the past 20 years or so. Did I read that we have more people out of work and claiming welfare at present than ever before. Bound up in covid, yes, but it’s become socially acceptable to be this way too.

Just look at this forum tbf. There are as many posters claiming that England did well as there are stating that we should have done better.

We could and probably should have done better.

This post is spectacularly daft Colin  really out done yourself here 

[Livid]

That was a very good squad of players who could, maybe should, have won it. 
 

Having said that they are massively overhyped, I know we live in an era of clicks, views and ratings so maybe that has something to do with it all being whipped up into a frenzy. 
 

Foden in particular seems to be worshipped by the media like he’s the next Messi, he’s not even remotely close to that level. Southgate’s short comings just seem to be swept aside, it’s almost like the television media in particular are afraid to comment.  Every tournament you get those referees who seem to see the game totally differently and have one of those days you just have to overcome it. 

[Col city fan]

8 minutes ago, Livid said:

That was a very good squad of players who could, maybe should, have won it. 
 

Having said that they are massively overhyped, I know we live in an era of clicks, views and ratings so maybe that has something to do with it all being whipped up into a frenzy. 
 

Foden in particular seems to be worshipped by the media like he’s the next Messi, he’s not even remotely close to that level. Southgate’s short comings just seem to be swept aside, it’s almost like the television media in particular are afraid to comment.  Every tournament you get those referees who seem to see the game totally differently and have one of those days you just have to overcome it. 

Exactly my point. The table above tells us the real story. We’ve won one game (one) against so called ‘top opposition’. Yet the media today is full of bad luck stories.

It’s as if Gareth’s shortcomings can’t be looked at. I know WE can, but pundits etc will skirt around it.

Why is this? I suggest two main reasons: one, he’s a nice bloke and we don’t want to ‘offend him’ (aka snowflake) and two: because it’s not ‘the English way’. If we continue to support, applaud and ‘big up’, it’s felt that might result in a different outcome going forward.

Thats become one of the salient buzz words in contemporary Britain by the way.. ‘going forward’, along with ‘learning lessons’. Two phrases which conveniently overlook the importance of something that’s happened ‘now’ (it’ll be ok that we’ve fooked up because we’ll learn from it).

If Southgate wasn’t a popular public figure, the feeling of the nation today would be completely different. Different headlines would be written, he’d be slagged off to the hilt and there’d be more of a feeling of anger, than acceptance. Southgate is liked, generally, so he can be forgiven. And imagine if it was Maguire who missed the penalty! 

The fact remains, it’s failure and the UK seem to ooze if from every pore at the moment. Christ, even the ex PM had the shortest tenure of any modern day governmental leader. 
It’s a huge jump from all of this to losing another football match. But I think it’s all on the continuum of apathy, resignation and disinterest which seems to be highly pervasive at present. 
It wasn’t like this in 1996 by the way. Everything, including football felt very different.

 

[Big_Nige]

1 hour ago, Col city fan said:

Spot on.

We make excuses all the time and give praise to people and to things that aren’t at all praiseworthy. 
It’s become a part of the British mentality. We have kind of learnt a. To be losers and b. That’s completely acceptable. When we DO win something, OBE’s and Knighthoods are given out like confetti.

It’s bound up in the snowflake culture of the country that’s become incredibly prevalent over the past 20 years or so. Did I read that we have more people out of work and claiming welfare at present than ever before. Bound up in covid, yes, but it’s become socially acceptable to be this way too.

Just look at this forum tbf. There are as many posters claiming that England did well as there are stating that we should have done better.

We could and probably should have done better.

Snowflake culture. Benefits. Wow. What have I just read 😂

 

How on earth does that correlate to losing 2-1 to France in a close game? 

 

Reality is nobody has a divine right to win anything. Football is a game of fine margins, especially at the top level. We’ve been close the last 3 tournaments, and the future seems to be bright. Whether this is because of, or in spite of Southgate is a topic for discussion.
 

We can all point at referees, tactics, personnel and mentality but Portugal and Spain just lost to Morocco, Germany lost to Japan and Brazil lost to Croatia. It’s football, shit happens. It certainly has nothing to do with the welfare state

[Col city fan]

1 minute ago, Big_Nige said:

Snowflake culture. Benefits. Wow. What have I just read 😂

 

How on earth does that correlate to losing 2-1 to France in a close game? 

 

Reality is nobody has a divine right to win anything. Football is a game of fine margins, especially at the top level. We’ve been close the last 3 tournaments, and the future seems to be bright. Whether this is because of, or in spite of Southgate is a topic for discussion.
 

We can all point at referees, tactics, personnel and mentality but Portugal and Spain just lost to Morocco, Germany lost to Japan and Brazil lost to Croatia. It’s football, shit happens. It certainly has nothing to do with the welfare state

You’ve just done it now. The future of the England international team is no ‘brighter’ than it ever was. We’ve crashed out in the quarter final of a World Cup when last time we made the semi’s? That’s not progress. By any definition that’s going backwards.

Look at the informative table cited above. There’s the reality.

The honest reflection of this World Cup is that we’ve failed again as an international football team. The reasons for this are manifest and manifold. But that’s where we are at. The interesting question is how do we stop this rot.
The first thing to be is honest. And ask why?

[Nalis]

3 hours ago, The boy Linacre said:

Over history we have underperformed I would say.

Lets compare to Europe=
Germany 4 WC’s 3 Euros

Spain 1 WC 2 Euro’s

Italy 4 WC’s 1 Euro

France 2 WC’s 2 Euro’s

Portugal 2 WC sf 1 Euro

Netherlands 3 WCF 1 Euro

England (as big a league as top 3)

1 World Cup, 1 Euro final

Way behind the top 3, we’re comparable with Portugal & that’s wrong!!

But Southgate has got tournament results & we generally have a v good current squad.

Its luck, mentality & mindset, sadly generally we are gallant losers, that’s the distasteful but truthful fact & stats as above.

Interestingly Friday Klinsmann said we should have won the Euro’s final, but we stopped playing & handed control of the game to Italy.

Mentality again.

When I was younger the media seems to put England in the same bracket as Germany. The likes of Germany, Italy and Brazil dont see England as a superpower in football as harsh as that sounds. In the past 10 years or so I think the media have been more honest about England's standing and expectations.

 

The reality is England are in the Portugal bracket of always having a chance of winning something but almost always not happening depending on the squad at that given time. Still a better standing that over 200 FIFA nations though.