England - Always a bridesmaid, or overhyped?

[Col city fan]

Absolutely spot on

 

 

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, Col city fan said:

No, it was different. Watch the vid.
I guess the big contingent on here are a lot younger though. I’ve always got that impression 

It really isn't, for reasons people have said before. It's rose-tinted specs, which everyone has, including me - I remember Euro 96 (first major tourney I remember clearly) very fondly.

 

But to say it's somehow different because of reasons that are rather arbitrary is rather inaccurate.

[Nalis]

I oddly think if England dont have tournament success in the next 20 years then in a few years 2018 will be looked at in a similar way to Italia 90.

 

It was a really hot summer and there was a massive feel good factor about, until you knocked out of course.

[cruzFOX]

It’s a case of damned if you do or damned if you don’t. Nobody can see into the future. The probabilities based on this tournament and the past ones is that England are inching ever closer to a final.

if the stars align again for euro 24 you can’t help think England could possibly win it.

Of course it’s all based on the premise that whatever qualifying group we’re in the team can beat whoever they face and that means top tier opposition once and for all.

if SG goes now we will never ever know but if he stays we run the risk of another repeat. I honestly didn’t think England would win this year and expected a QF but the way things panned out we could have been playing in the finals. After that it’s a 50/50 chance to win or lose 

[CosbehFox]

These woke lads - nothing like the 1996 getting pissed in Hong Kong 

[Lionator]

1 hour ago, CosbehFox said:

These woke lads - nothing like the 1996 getting pissed in Hong Kong 

Honestly it’s disgusting. These are footballers, doing all political stuff like talking on zoom to dementia sufferers when they should be training. Politically correct buffoonery. 

[filbertway]

On 11/12/2022 at 19:19, Fox92 said:

Not missing a penalty in that situtation for us, he hasn't.

 

You just take an issue up with him being you have some weird agenda against Spurs.

 

Without his goals we wouldn't even be in the finals of the World Cup.

 

We are fortunate to have someone capable of scoring against powerhouses such as San Marino, Andorra, Albania, Hungary and Poland.

 

It is hard to imagine anyone else managing such a feat.

[Fox92]

14 minutes ago, filbertway said:

 

We are fortunate to have someone capable of scoring against powerhouses such as San Marino, Andorra, Albania, Hungary and Poland.

 

It is hard to imagine anyone else managing such a feat.

Almost every England player, ever, has scored against those sorts of sides in qualifying. Even Bobby Charlton scored against Luxembourg and Northern Ireland in qualifying.

 

If you're picked to play and score a goal then it's a goal. You better go and tell the FA only to count goals when you want them to count.

[Leeds Fox]

Wasn’t really sure where to put this, but I suppose it fits okay in here.

 

How do people think other nations fans see our players.

 

Kane for example. Is he seen as a good striker, or is he hyped as much as Lewandowski etc? (Had he played for Bayern or Barca, his G/A ratio would likely be huge). 
 

Is Phil Foden seen as a world class talent?

 

Do they see Henderson as a workhorse (as many of us do)? He’s a great era for Man City/Madrid away from captaining Liverpool to few more league titles and a couple more CL’s. 
 

Just curious as to others perceptions on our players. Often think the same with City players amongst other clubs views, which are sometimes way off. 

[KFS]

13 minutes ago, Leeds Fox said:

Wasn’t really sure where to put this, but I suppose it fits okay in here.

 

How do people think other nations fans see our players.

 

Kane for example. Is he seen as a good striker, or is he hyped as much as Lewandowski etc? (Had he played for Bayern or Barca, his G/A ratio would likely be huge). 
 

Is Phil Foden seen as a world class talent?

 

Do they see Henderson as a workhorse (as many of us do)? He’s a great era for Man City/Madrid away from captaining Liverpool to few more league titles and a couple more CL’s. 
 

Just curious as to others perceptions on our players. Often think the same with City players amongst other clubs views, which are sometimes way off. 

As an expat abroad I will say a lot of our media drives the perception worldwide. Harry Kane is viewed as a bottler and Maguire is a cart horse. Amongst my friends at least. 

[foxy boxing]

We always breeze through qualifying and yet when it comes to major tournaments we are found wanting. Is it mentality, is it over expectations, is it over hyped players aswell as over hyped Premier League. Are players knackered after a long season or can't we find a decent manager( we've had loads try , English and Foreign). Is the media and fans to blame for building us up all the time to be world beaters when there is just no evidence of that. Do we accept that we a a good side but not a great or exceptional one that can and will win matches but when the chips are down and the stakes are high we are just not good enough and are simply not capable of achieving winning a major tournaments. 

[An Sionnach]

2 hours ago, foxy boxing said:

We always breeze through qualifying and yet when it comes to major tournaments we are found wanting. Is it mentality, is it over expectations, is it over hyped players aswell as over hyped Premier League. Are players knackered after a long season or can't we find a decent manager( we've had loads try , English and Foreign). Is the media and fans to blame for building us up all the time to be world beaters when there is just no evidence of that. Do we accept that we a a good side but not a great or exceptional one that can and will win matches but when the chips are down and the stakes are high we are just not good enough and are simply not capable of achieving winning a major tournaments. 

Effort- yes, Skill- yes, Commitment-yes, - Brains - No!.

[foxes_rule1978]

It is hugely disappointing again, and it actually hurts more when you lose a game that you felt we were on top of. I have already stated Southgate has done a great job, brought the players together and made them into a team, but you can see the limitations he has. We have to start to search for that manager that has the tactical nous and is willing to play his creative players when needed; this needs to be done if we want to get through games like Croatia, Italy and France. Im still down when I think about the defeat but that is football, and we have made big steps forward in terms of players, so must just think about the future. 

Edited 13 December 2022 by foxes_rule1978

[CWC1983]

On 13/12/2022 at 14:31, Leeds Fox said:

Wasn’t really sure where to put this, but I suppose it fits okay in here.

 

How do people think other nations fans see our players.

 

Kane for example. Is he seen as a good striker, or is he hyped as much as Lewandowski etc? (Had he played for Bayern or Barca, his G/A ratio would likely be huge). 
 

Is Phil Foden seen as a world class talent?

 

Do they see Henderson as a workhorse (as many of us do)? He’s a great era for Man City/Madrid away from captaining Liverpool to few more league titles and a couple more CL’s. 
 

Just curious as to others perceptions on our players. Often think the same with City players amongst other clubs views, which are sometimes way off. 

I'm from another nation. 

 

I see the keeper and back 4 as average, nothing special. 

Same for Rice and Phillips,  but Bellingham is good. 

Saka / Foden / Grealish / Rashford have undoubted talent but are inconsistent against top international sides. 

Kane is a danger to any side but needs the service. 

 

The EPL hype machine doesnt help.

 

There's a feeling from the outside looking in that the real "star players" in the EPL are not English but help bring out the best from the players above week in week out.

 

Once they turn up for England they miss what the star players do for them (De Bruyne, Odegard, Harland, Van Dyjk, Erikson,etc).

 

From my point of view, you miss a proper clever midfielder that can dictate the pace of a game from deep midfiel. Modric, Jorgihno, Thiago, Cassimiro.

 

Unfortunately, they don't come around that often. 

 

Is anyone from the squad going to make Team of the Tournament? I can't think of anyone. 

 

 

[SkidsFox]

On 13/12/2022 at 14:46, KFS said:

As an expat abroad I will say a lot of our media drives the perception worldwide. Harry Kane is viewed as a bottler and Maguire is a cart horse. Amongst my friends at least. 

To be fair, most England fans would share that opinion!

[Leicesterpool]

For me all the talent England has had its strange to think we haven't anything since 66. 1990 so close but not good enough, 1996 should have won the euros, 2002 knocked out by the winners but to think if we had knocked out Brazil,  You only have to look at teams left and we could have won it, 2004 should have but cheated out. 2018 should have got to the final but threw it away, 2021 should have won it. This time I feel the same as 2002. 

Edited 15 December 2022 by Leicesterpool

[Finnaldo]

On 12/12/2022 at 16:27, Col city fan said:

So you’ve said that we’ve done better with this team than any since 1966, yet the manager is ‘an utter plonker’?

I’ll have some of what you’re having…

We’ve got an excellent squad which is well balanced in positions I’d say, and yet when we’re behind to France with Grealish and Maddison on the bench we bring on… Mason Mount. Because as always it has to be Gareth’s favourites. He’s a third rate manager with a squad that has the potential to compete in finals and we ultimately limped out. Again. 
 

On 12/12/2022 at 16:27, Col city fan said:

If you genuinely don’t believe that contemporary Britain is becoming a more woke society, then the discussion is over.

Because ‘woke’ is a nothing online term that has very little basis on daily life outside universities. I never went and see little in real life, folks who I do know who I assume you’d refer to as ‘woke’ tend to grandstand online and then have very different opinions when talking to them in person. The same way I see some level headed conservative leaving mates spew the same grandstanding shite about ‘wokes’ and ‘cultural Marxists’ online. That’s just social media. The loudest voices online tend to be those who are terminally online and just vocalise in their bubbles. 
 

If you want to say society is getting steadily more progressive? Absolutely, but that’s been the case since King John signed the Magna Carta and limited the powers of the King, since the English Civil War and Cromwell did more of the same, the Chartist movement and fallout of WWI and the suffragettes radically expanded enfranchisement and the various civil rights movements post-WWII and immigration massively effected North American & European demographics and how they interact. It’s just in the last 200 years as communication methods vastly improve the speed of social change and how ardent those for and against it are. But that’s the same whatever country you’re in.
 

But then, in my eyes that’s nothing to do with the England National Football Team whatsoever, and it’s just another excuse for another asinine culture war argument. Ultimately England failed at another tournament  as we clearly don’t have all the tools we need, what that is I’m sure we could all debate endlessly.

[SkidsFox]

Maybe we were (again) expecting too much from the England team. Yes, we had some decent forward players. But our defenders wouldn't get in a world squad. Plus we don't really have a world class player like Messi, Mbappe or Modric. The closest is perhaps Kane, although Bellingham and Saka can develop in that way. 

[MattFox]

8 hours ago, Leicesterpool said:

For me all the talent England has had its strange to think we haven't anything since 66. 1990 so close but not good enough, 1996 should have won the euros, 2002 knocked out by the winners but to think if we had knocked out Brazil,  You only have to look at teams left and we could have won it, 2004 should have but cheated out. 2018 should have got to the final but threw it away, 2021 should have won it. This time I feel the same as 2002. 

2006 was probably the one tbf.

 

Sven was on the beech though and Rooney played injured 

[Leicesterpool]

15 hours ago, MattFox said:

2006 was probably the one tbf.

 

Sven was on the beech though and Rooney played injured 

2006 we had an unfit squad. Beckham had a knock, Owen just come back from a long injury and got injured in the first game of tournament, Rooney as mentioned still injured, plus quiet a few players didn't look fit. Performances weren't that spectacular. Seem to recall both Crouch and Joe Cole gave good tournaments.

[Dan LCFC]

On 12/12/2022 at 14:55, Col city fan said:

You raise a very good point there and it again expands upon the media/authority led world view that we should all follow…

Harry Kane came into this tournament not on his best form. He’s a good striker, no doubt about that, but looked ‘leggy’ throughout the tournament I think?

My point is this… not once was there ANY discussion or consideration given to playing any of the other strikers in any of the games? Not once. Not in the media, not by the pundits, not by Southgate I suspect?

Kane is the captain… end of

Kane plays 90+ minutes… end of

Kane is Southgate’s voice in the dressing room and on the pitch… end of

Even you post this in anticipation of ‘comeback’.. (similar to when I post about Amartey?) and he’s not on the same universe as Kane, ability wise.

Kane is England’s best striker. But to thwart any discussion on whether anyone else gets a chance, even towards the end of games, is frankly bizarre.

But it’s socially constructed. I made the point after the game (and meant it).. what if Maguire had pushed Kane aside and stepped up to take that penalty.. and missed!

He’d be a pariah at the moment, whereas Kane is just accepted as ‘bad luck.

Socially driven reality mate. Read up on it. Marx called it the ‘superstructure’.. cultural norms being created by the ruling elite. It’s very real, even now.

Good post and agree - I think it was precisely this which cost England Vardy. It happened with Rooney but Rooney's playing CV was better than Kane's. I just can't believe it's some unlucky coincidence he's never won a trophy.

[fuchsntf]

We hang about 6-8th in the world.

Between big tournaments, we might rate top 2-5...

We have always had a front 4-6, that top International managers sometimes gasp at...but we find most of our top quality players crocked,at tournament time...

We have had 70yrs where we put doubt in our top players,by not having managers that have a nous of playing their / our best players & to our own best system & set up..

[CosbehFox]

In international football, they can only be one winner every two years. 
 

Some useful info 

Italy haven’t won a World Cup knockout game since 2006 

 

Spain haven’t won a World Cup knockout game since 2010 

 

Germany haven’t won a World Cup knockout game since 2014 

[gerblod]

On 14/12/2022 at 22:04, CWC1983 said:

1. I see the keeper and back 4 as average, nothing special. The EPL hype machine doesnt help.

 

2.There's a feeling from the outside looking in that the real "star players" in the EPL are not English but help bring out the best from the players above week in week out.

 

3. Once they turn up for England they miss what the star players do for them.

 

4. From my point of view, you miss a proper clever midfielder that can dictate the pace of a game from deep midfield.

 

Unfortunately, they don't come around that often. 

 

Is anyone from the squad going to make Team of the Tournament? I can't think of anyone. 

You have highlighted all the key reasons why the England men's team don't make it all the way. Southgate is probably an extra reason, but if you don't have the necessary players then what can you do as a manager? Wiegman managed it, but the FA Old Boys Committee would never tolerate a woman in control of the men's team.

Of the four semi-finalists, three had that gifted individual directing games and/or creating opportunities - Griezmann, and Modric and Messi. Morocco had an incredibly effective defence and the Ziyech/Hakimi tandem on the right.

All great teams have a 'director(s) of football' dictating play. Tostão and Gérson, Xavi and Iniesta, Cruyff, Dunga, Messi, Zidane and all those other great midfielders.

 

English clubs sold off their birthright by importing men like de Bruyne to act as the pivotal midfielders (and defenders and forwards). Take away Son from Kane and the latter has to develop some kind of rapport with other players in a matter of weeks.

I think England/English players have become the workhorses of the 'big' teams they play for - perhaps it's down to years spent with unimaginative coaches. Watching the Majer-Perisic-Gvardiol goal yesterday was proof that there are able tacticians in their camp.

France manage to field a potential winning team time after time and have done since Platini played.

 

Maddison appears to prove the point for me. You have a performer there epitomising the guileful, clever player, at ease on the ball, able to hold it, able to see and make opportunities, and Southgate has no intention of using him except to quieten the media and City fans. Already too late anyway to bed him into the squad/team.

I think England distrusts genius - preferring hard workers with some talent. Glenn Hoddle was never granted the number of England appearances his huge talent warranted. Until the Premier develop English players capable of emulating the de Bruyne levels and the FA choose a manager able to utilise those gifts then we'll continue to reach just so far and no further.